Ok, now I've got your attention, it seems to me that the constant loss of life at these events wouldn't be acceptable in everyday working life, and I'm astounded that these events haven't been curbed or banned. Pushing aircraft limits above large crowds of eager watchers is a recipe for disaster surely. Where are health and safety in all of this. Your thoughts please. :shrug:
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Ban Airshows
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gingerjon
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Regular then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airshow_accidents_and_incidents
Beaten to it by Jon
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And what about the children who haven't had a life?
Mikesphotaes
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We seem to be safe enough over here according to that link.
That egg bloke from the Red Arrows (not mentioned in link) is the only death this year.
Now then, if you drive?
As for Health an bleedin Safety, don't get me started!
That egg bloke from the Red Arrows (not mentioned in link) is the only death this year.
Now then, if you drive?
As for Health an bleedin Safety, don't get me started!
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I'd prefer to know more about it before forming an opinion.
That list on its own looks pretty damning, but how many airshows actually take place? There's also a world of difference between a plane plowing into the crowd and a Wing Walker falling to his death.
That list on its own looks pretty damning, but how many airshows actually take place? There's also a world of difference between a plane plowing into the crowd and a Wing Walker falling to his death.
travellingcello
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May as well stop passenger air flight, driving, cycling, walking then ................... (Simon - was just trying this as you replied as well - good minds & all that)
Everything has a risk !! If you want to do it - then do so. If not stay in the house & never go out.
There again don't the majority of accident happen in the home !
BTW - Jon Egging was the only Red Arrows pilot to ever have lost a life, in the Hawk. if the report is correct (which I think is in this case), the only reason he didn't eject, was to steer the aircraft away from residential housing !
Everything has a risk !! If you want to do it - then do so. If not stay in the house & never go out.
There again don't the majority of accident happen in the home !
BTW - Jon Egging was the only Red Arrows pilot to ever have lost a life, in the Hawk. if the report is correct (which I think is in this case), the only reason he didn't eject, was to steer the aircraft away from residential housing !
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If it's a stupid thread, why comment. It's got people talking and discussing and that's the point of it. We use cars because we have to. Airshows are supposed to be entertaining not life threatening. It just seems to me there are needless deaths at these events and whilst banning may be overkill (no pun intended) maybe they should have stricter safety guidelines. Being a stupid thread I won't expect you to comment further though.:nono:
Really? Because I'll wager 10-100x as many people died due to work-related road accidents, in Nevada alone, in the time period between the crash occurring and the 3 that were in critical condition dying.
People die all the time, at work and at play (remember, only 1 person (afaik) died in the Reno accident at work, the other 5 were there for pleasure), it's just the news rarely reports anything that isn't out of the ordinary. Heck, you need to die in a road crash that causes double figure deaths before they'll report it usually.
Urban Grimshaw
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I wouldn't say it's stupid. In fact I'd say it's pretty rude to do so, but that aside...
You can look at it from many different angles. Yes, far more people die in car accidents, or crossing the roads, etc. But millions of people participate in those activities across the world, often on a daily basis. Exactly how many partake in acrobatic manoeuvres whilst flying light aircraft at airshows? It's a pretty small number, surely.. It's not really a comparison.
And it's clearly a dangerous occupation. If anyone is killed in sport, that sport gets investigated, the rules often get changed, safety standards are raised, sometimes it dulls the excitement of what it's all about, but more people get to see their kids grow up. It's a question of what's more important. And the answer will differ from person to person.
I was watching a vid on Youtube the other week. It was a collection of crashes from the old days of motor racing. Now I don't know a great deal about the history of motorsport, but we're talking about the days when they basically drove canoes with big engines and a set of wheels.
By the time I had finished watching it, I was quite horrified to say the least. People being thrown violently from their cars, ran over by other cars, bursting into flames, high speed collisions with walls...I wouldn't like to estimate the death toll from that video. But I'm told (and I don't know if it's true) that in these instances the bodies would simply be pulled to the side of the track and the race would continue
I guess some people just like playing with death. No-one's forced into doing these things. So should we stop them? It's very sad when these things happen, especially for the friends and family, but perhaps by doing the best we can to eradicate all danger we're missing the point of life?
In comparison I reckon the airshows are pretty safe! Though I'm sure they'll be investigated.
TriggerHappy
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If people get their kicks from doing acrobatics in aircraft so be it. It's not like the pilots aren't aware of the risks. Similarly, people who go to air-shows can't be completely naive of the risks. It would hardly be a spectacle if it wasn't for the difficulty and the risk after all!
People should be entitled to live their life the way they see fit as long as what they do doesn't create risks for unwilling/unknowing participants. If these pilots were doing their acrobatics over a city centre it would be terrible but they're not, they do it over an empty field where spectators have knowingly and willingly gathered to watch them perform.
"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
If people wish to sit on their sofa and watch the tv in relative safety for as many years as they can live that's entirely fine as it's their life and others shouldn't create risks for them by acting irresponsibly.
Equally, if people want to go out and get their adrenaline rushes and witness remarkable achievements of bravery and skill then they should be allowed to do so too - providing no one else is being put at risk - without the risk averse people trying to impose their attitudes on them.
People should be entitled to live their life the way they see fit as long as what they do doesn't create risks for unwilling/unknowing participants. If these pilots were doing their acrobatics over a city centre it would be terrible but they're not, they do it over an empty field where spectators have knowingly and willingly gathered to watch them perform.
"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
If people wish to sit on their sofa and watch the tv in relative safety for as many years as they can live that's entirely fine as it's their life and others shouldn't create risks for them by acting irresponsibly.
Equally, if people want to go out and get their adrenaline rushes and witness remarkable achievements of bravery and skill then they should be allowed to do so too - providing no one else is being put at risk - without the risk averse people trying to impose their attitudes on them.
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Air displays haven't taken place above crowds for several years now, they actually take place away from the spectating crowd. When they have displays at Goodwood Festival of Speed for instance, certain car parks form part of the flight path and are off limits during display times.
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they;ll have even less if we sit around fashioning cotton wool boiler suits for them to live their lives in.
people who attend air shows know the risks, id be damn sure that its written on the back of the ticket and in big bold letters by the turnstiles. if they are happy with those risk then they enter, unhappy and they dont.
cambsno
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A kid fell off a climbing frame and died the other day. Let's ban them too. Surprised that ne parents are not in court due to the risks they let him take. A playground should be entertaining not life threatening. Instead of taking my kids there this afternoon I think I will keep them at home to be really safe. After all, apart from the climbing frame they could brake a neck on the swing, or some p**** with a dslr could be there ready to abduct them?
tikkathreebarrel
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INSTANT OPINION:
I'm not going to open the link to a list for the simple reason that I've decided that the list will either state the blitherin' obvious or will have been compiled to present a point of view as strongly as possible. Generalisation no.1
People pay to watch air shows, no-one is forced to attend and people like me probably go assuming that risk has been properly assessed and minimised as far as is possible. Generalisation no.2
Want to rebel against societally accepted risk of injury? Ban motorbikes from public roads. Ban anyone under the age of 23 from driving a car without supervision by a responsible adult. Ban anyone under the age of 30 from driving a car capable of speeds greater than 100 mph. Ban seatbelts, airbags and disk brakes: we were all safer when we felt less cocooned from the dangers inherent in driving. Ban smoking. Ban alcohol and other forms of recreational drug. Ban drink-driving, absolutely. Ban children from crossing the road other than where and when traffic is stationary. Generalisation no.3
I'm not going to open the link to a list for the simple reason that I've decided that the list will either state the blitherin' obvious or will have been compiled to present a point of view as strongly as possible. Generalisation no.1
People pay to watch air shows, no-one is forced to attend and people like me probably go assuming that risk has been properly assessed and minimised as far as is possible. Generalisation no.2
Want to rebel against societally accepted risk of injury? Ban motorbikes from public roads. Ban anyone under the age of 23 from driving a car without supervision by a responsible adult. Ban anyone under the age of 30 from driving a car capable of speeds greater than 100 mph. Ban seatbelts, airbags and disk brakes: we were all safer when we felt less cocooned from the dangers inherent in driving. Ban smoking. Ban alcohol and other forms of recreational drug. Ban drink-driving, absolutely. Ban children from crossing the road other than where and when traffic is stationary. Generalisation no.3
Cheesy feet
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My god OP, really???
Live your life to the full, do what you want. Banning air shows? Bloody ridiculous.
Live your life to the full, do what you want. Banning air shows? Bloody ridiculous.
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Life is dangerous and yet we have the choice and free will to decide what is a acceptable level of risk when we view or partake in events.
To say ban something is ridiculous.
Look at LeMans in the 50's or the
Von Tripp accident the next decade.
People were killed in both and regulations were tightened.
In 1990 a freak accident involving Alan Mcnish killed a spectator.
No one banned motorsport.
Yet you can never eliminate risk completely.
Perhaps Mountain climbing should be banned tooworldwide
A world with no risk is not going to be a nice place to live in.
Even Children have to face risks and learn and, unfortunately some may die.
Horrible but true. That is why they are called Accidents.
To say ban something is ridiculous.
Look at LeMans in the 50's or the
Von Tripp accident the next decade.
People were killed in both and regulations were tightened.
In 1990 a freak accident involving Alan Mcnish killed a spectator.
No one banned motorsport.
Yet you can never eliminate risk completely.
Perhaps Mountain climbing should be banned tooworldwide
A world with no risk is not going to be a nice place to live in.
Even Children have to face risks and learn and, unfortunately some may die.
Horrible but true. That is why they are called Accidents.
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I tell you what,
let's just ban EVERYTHING.
And spend our lives in a nice dry, warm padded (with cotton wool) room.
Sorry Dougie, all the respect in the world mate (and you almost have a point), but this really is a stupid thread, and it's a public forum which you have posted in.
I'd expect a few replies that you may disagree with if I were you.........
let's just ban EVERYTHING.
And spend our lives in a nice dry, warm padded (with cotton wool) room.
Sorry Dougie, all the respect in the world mate (and you almost have a point), but this really is a stupid thread, and it's a public forum which you have posted in.
I'd expect a few replies that you may disagree with if I were you.........
Mickwreay
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Sensitive!!!
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Whoooooooooooooa hold on here a minute!!!!
Have you people got any idea of the dangers of Cotton Wool ???
It's a fire hazard and being wrapped in it while some fire breathing, chain smoking, angle grinding adrenaline junky saunters past is quite frankly unacceptable
Have you people got any idea of the dangers of Cotton Wool ???
It's a fire hazard and being wrapped in it while some fire breathing, chain smoking, angle grinding adrenaline junky saunters past is quite frankly unacceptable
It may surprise you to learn that I did expect a negative response albeit I didn't expect to be called stupid by implication. I also agree that health and safety laws are a drag. I also recognise they are, at times, restrictive in the extreme. But I do think at times people disregard safety to their peril and need preventative legislation. Maybe I have an over sensitive view on people dying needlessly. I have worked for a quarter of a century dealing with tragic events which could be avoided with a little care. So I'm sorry if those that think this thread is stupid but it was meant to stimulate debate. From debate we learn and from learning we improve understanding, and from understanding we improve things. I'm sorry some people would rather have adults and children die than try to prevent their death. It's one thing having risk in our lives, it's another entirely to play Russian roulette with it. I could get excitement and danger running over a motorway and dodging cars. Who wants to join me?:shrug: Anyone?
I would also like to point out that I never said they should be banned, just astounded that they hadn't. I would like to see a greater control of the display content especially when it comes to the older type aircraft.
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Any aircraft can suffer a sudden and catastrophic failure, and it's the newer aircraft with far greater power and complexity that perform the more visually appealing displays of speed and agility,so surely by your rationale the older aircraft are safer.
Accidents are just that, they'll happen in any circumstance and at any time. They can't be legislated for.
Cheesy feet
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Oh please, stop trying to make it as though we would 'rather have adults and children die' and comparing it to 'Russian roulette'
As has been said they no longer fly over crowds and have strict flying routes, but I don't organise such events so can't comment any further.
As with all the other examples of causes of harm etc I am still at miss why you are 'astounded' that they haven't banned them? According to your logic the same would go for pretty much any sporting event...You're posting words but I can't see any substance.
Sorry if I seem rude, but I really don't get it.
Splog
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Cheesy feet said:Oh please, stop trying to make it as though we would 'rather have adults and children die' and comparing it to 'Russian roulette'
As has been said they no longer fly over crowds and have strict flying routes, but I don't organise such events so can't comment any further.
As with all the other examples of causes of harm etc I am still at miss why you are 'astounded' that they haven't banned them? According to your logic the same would go for pretty much any sporting event...You're posting words but I can't see any substance.
Sorry if I seem rude, but I really don't get it.
I thought the op was talking about air shows? I don't see any mention of other sports.
The op has raised a valid question and I doubt many people, especially children really understand the risks?..... They just go.
Oh please, stop trying to make it as though we would 'rather have adults and children die' and comparing it to 'Russian roulette'
As has been said they no longer fly over crowds and have strict flying routes, but I don't organise such events so can't comment any further.
As with all the other examples of causes of harm etc I am still at miss why you are 'astounded' that they haven't banned them? According to your logic the same would go for pretty much any sporting event...You're posting words but I can't see any substance.
Sorry if I seem rude, but I really don't get it.
If you don't get it,:shrug:you just don't get it. Substance? Entertainment should be safe. If people are dying needlessly, more safety precautions are needed. Full stop.
MackieStaggie
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You can do all you can to prevent deaths but by thier very nature accidents are accidents and can rarely be predicted. Yes caution should be used but banning the shows.....come on.
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More Air Shows!!! More Air shows!!!!!!
Why not just ban being alive.
Sick and tired of Do Gooder fools wanting a safe life.
Our kids are going tobe complete softy idiots with out a clue about the world.
No wonder we as a Country are going Backward.
Should take down fences at F1 and other racing so we can shoot without fences being in the way.
Don't want the risk??? Dont go out of the Hose and let those love life and it can throw at you LIVE IT!!!!!
People who want more restrictions and bans are the sort that never let their kids go out all day and play with friiends.
When i was a kid during school hols we went out at breakfast time came back at tea time... after climbing trees building camps.
Now parents won't let them out of sight..... And everyone wonders why we have gone stupid on safety and Polictical correctness........ Jeeez so tired of Namby pamby Libreral soft sad lifeless T*****s this Country is full of..
Why not just ban being alive.
Sick and tired of Do Gooder fools wanting a safe life.
Our kids are going tobe complete softy idiots with out a clue about the world.
No wonder we as a Country are going Backward.
Should take down fences at F1 and other racing so we can shoot without fences being in the way.
Don't want the risk??? Dont go out of the Hose and let those love life and it can throw at you LIVE IT!!!!!
People who want more restrictions and bans are the sort that never let their kids go out all day and play with friiends.
When i was a kid during school hols we went out at breakfast time came back at tea time... after climbing trees building camps.
Now parents won't let them out of sight..... And everyone wonders why we have gone stupid on safety and Polictical correctness........ Jeeez so tired of Namby pamby Libreral soft sad lifeless T*****s this Country is full of..
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Johnraiders
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Hi
It'll probably mean even more restrictions at airshows. I went to FIA last year and they all seemed quite distant.
Are the US regulations more lenient, can they fly closer to the crowd ?
Every year I keep meaning to plan something to see the Blue Angels.
There's got to be an element of the crowd that go hoping to see some form of accident, as with F1, don't shoot the messenger. It's the element of risk that adds to the excitement.
I saw Batman Live ( don't waste your money ) recently and theres a high wire trapeze act which was completely dull because they were wearing safety harness'. A safety net would've made it exciting.
John
It'll probably mean even more restrictions at airshows. I went to FIA last year and they all seemed quite distant.
Are the US regulations more lenient, can they fly closer to the crowd ?
Every year I keep meaning to plan something to see the Blue Angels.
There's got to be an element of the crowd that go hoping to see some form of accident, as with F1, don't shoot the messenger. It's the element of risk that adds to the excitement.
I saw Batman Live ( don't waste your money ) recently and theres a high wire trapeze act which was completely dull because they were wearing safety harness'. A safety net would've made it exciting.
John
cambsno
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So does the op think that we should ban skiing as an activity as people die, all forms of motorsport too, hey, people get paralysed playing rugby too.
Rather than it be up to teachers, maybe the government could ban conker fights too so my son will not come home with a bruise which could cause a blood clot and death??
Rather than it be up to teachers, maybe the government could ban conker fights too so my son will not come home with a bruise which could cause a blood clot and death??
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What seems like many years ago now, all F1 standard motor racing circuits HAD to install catch fencing, to a certain height, strength and construction, in order to minimise the chance of crash debris hitting the crowds [and anyone visiting Silverstone will know how frustrating they are for photographers, but that's the price for improved safety]. Of course, even with these fences, access was need to the track, for all manner of reasons. That didn't stop 2 marshals being killed by flying debris some 10 years ago. Safety has of course improved further since, all modern F1 cars have wheel tethers, to reduce the chances of them flying off in an accident. [Funnily enough I was looking at these rather closely yesterday, but that's another story] Ditto in F2, yet only 2 years ago, Henry Surtees, another driver was killed in the freakiest of accidents by a flying wheel.
Now I know these involved people much more involved in a known dangerous sport than the actual spectators [although the Australian marshals death was accompanied by minor injuries to spectators too] but its serves to make my point.
Safety can be improved and improved further and legislated for, in any event that involves risk, but the point is, people partake and spectate partly because of the risk. Human nature dictates that and I doubt we would have many of the modern forms of transport we have now if our ancestors sat on their sofas avoiding feeding the adrenaline buzz.
Should air shows, or motorsport, or anything else that could, feasibly, cause injury or death to those that want to partake or just watch in awe be banned? Can we guarantee a toboggan wont fly off the track in to the crowd, ever? Can we be absolutely certain that a downhill skier won't lose control and scream into the hoards stood at the bottom of the run?
No, we can't, not ever.... should they be banned....NO, never! Make them as safe as possible without losing the thrill factor yes, but the need by some people to protect us from everything is what has given us a generation of kids that are overweight because they don't 'play out' any more, parents too terrified by the mass paedophile hysteria. Teach our kids that doing some stuff is fun AND dangerous and to be responsible and understand the consquences. You only get one shot at this life, you can waste it by risking RSI from over use of the TV remote if you wish, but frankly, I would rather enjoy some 'controlled' risk and have some fun doing it.
Just my thoughts...
Now I know these involved people much more involved in a known dangerous sport than the actual spectators [although the Australian marshals death was accompanied by minor injuries to spectators too] but its serves to make my point.
Safety can be improved and improved further and legislated for, in any event that involves risk, but the point is, people partake and spectate partly because of the risk. Human nature dictates that and I doubt we would have many of the modern forms of transport we have now if our ancestors sat on their sofas avoiding feeding the adrenaline buzz.
Should air shows, or motorsport, or anything else that could, feasibly, cause injury or death to those that want to partake or just watch in awe be banned? Can we guarantee a toboggan wont fly off the track in to the crowd, ever? Can we be absolutely certain that a downhill skier won't lose control and scream into the hoards stood at the bottom of the run?
No, we can't, not ever.... should they be banned....NO, never! Make them as safe as possible without losing the thrill factor yes, but the need by some people to protect us from everything is what has given us a generation of kids that are overweight because they don't 'play out' any more, parents too terrified by the mass paedophile hysteria. Teach our kids that doing some stuff is fun AND dangerous and to be responsible and understand the consquences. You only get one shot at this life, you can waste it by risking RSI from over use of the TV remote if you wish, but frankly, I would rather enjoy some 'controlled' risk and have some fun doing it.
Just my thoughts...
Very true
Stupid post really. I never said they should be banned.
Well balanced and thought out post too.
