Balancing Ambient and Flash

Sir SR

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Shaheed
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Quick question.

Was away over the BH weekend and in my trusted messenger bag I had my sb900 and a small silver/white reflector.

I wanted to get some other folks opinion as to how best to shoot in darker conditions with this kit. Had a 35 f1.4 on a d800.

Was trying to get a shot of the girls toasting marshmallows over a campfire in dark conditions.

What I could have done is bounced the sb900 off the reflector (carefully propped somewhere) to minimise the full on flash look.

What do you wise folk reckon?

Thanks

Shaheed
 
The issue is one of light and direction i.e. you need to make the light appear as if it is coming from the camp fire, but you want the atmosphere so turn up the ISO

Mike

Yeah, I tried this, and this may be a reflection on my poor camping skills, but the fire really wasn't too bright, necessitating a slower shutter speed which led to blur. Or I just dont like going past a certain point with the ISO, which I think is more likely!!

Thank you!
 
do you have triggers to take the flash off camera?

I did, but as this was a holiday I didn't want to faff too much! Just wondered what on the hoof solutions could be achieved!

I suppose in hindsight I could have used CLS, pointed the flash at a reflector to soften it a bit and bumped the ISO.
 
Think you would have needed the gold reflector for this type of shot or covered flash with yellow/orange gel.

That way it would match the flames and make it more natural and of course up lit.
 
Think you would have needed the gold reflector for this type of shot or covered flash with yellow/orange gel.

That way it would match the flames and make it more natural and of course up lit.

Do you know what, I had a CTO gel in my bag.

I guess the trick is knowing how/what to do quick enough when the moment arises. I guess that's why I have started this thread do "next time"!!
 
I can't see images :(

I deleted most at scene but I'll try to see if I have one or two left.

I had a few of using flash and ambient inside the tent but I think there was one of Jessica by the barley field in the evening.

S
 
I can't see images :(

Ok so this is the dimming light one (I'll search out the others later) - pop out reflector over my left shoulder propped up and on camera flash bounced off it. Not how I'd planned to take the shot but Jessica had wanted her pic taking by the fields earlier in the day but changed her mind. Then changed it back again in different light!!

Anyway.....

Barley Fields by Shaheed Rahman, on Flickr

I'll post more pics when I've found them!

Shaheed
 
The balance of light levels works, but the reflector position and/or zoom setting need some work. You put more effort into softening that flash than you got a reward for (you know this though, otherwise you wouldn't have asked / been disappointed).

Personally I'd have gone for bouncing the flash forwards diagonally so that you were lighting from about 60deg camera right. With a tri-grip you can just about do this on your own.

But despite the lighting, you do have an amazing talent for creating and capturing a personality that never ceases to impress me.
 
The balance of light levels works, but the reflector position and/or zoom setting need some work. You put more effort into softening that flash than you got a reward for (you know this though, otherwise you wouldn't have asked / been disappointed).

Personally I'd have gone for bouncing the flash forwards diagonally so that you were lighting from about 60deg camera right. With a tri-grip you can just about do this on your own.

But despite the lighting, you do have an amazing talent for creating and capturing a personality that never ceases to impress me.

Cheers Phil

And you're right! I think the lighting was coming from the left as I'm right handed and the reflector just needed balancing with my left hand!

I think that given time whilst I was shooting I would have figured it out, but the girls have such a limited capacity for having their pics taken! I think I managed 3 frames and the d800 wasn't coping very well with focusing on her eyes in that level of light (sure I ended up using live view in the end)

I am disappointed with the shot as I can see how good it could have been. Although she does have an intriguing expression/pose so I haven't binned it.

The 35 art has been my most used lens on this holiday although I usually like the size/weight of the 50mm for this kind of thing.

Cheers Phil

S
 
The issue is one of light and direction i.e. you need to make the light appear as if it is coming from the camp fire, but you want the atmosphere so turn up the ISO

Mike

No need to turn up the ISO Mike, when using flash as the main (key light) source the lower ISO the better. Typically 100 ISO is good enough. The f/stop controls the ambient light. I would use the fire as one light source and then light the subject the subject with the flash. A little snoot could also be used to as atmosphere. If you crank up the ISO then you don't need flash.
 
No need to turn up the ISO Mike, when using flash as the main (key light) source the lower ISO the better. Typically 100 ISO is good enough. The f/stop controls the ambient light. I would use the fire as one light source and then light the subject the subject with the flash. A little snoot could also be used to as atmosphere. If you crank up the ISO then you don't need flash.
But with Shaheed's terrible campfire skills, 100ISO and an aperture small enough for a couple of subjects, there'd have been no sign of the ambient. As @mike weeks says, it'd have needed a higher ISO.

Maybe if @Sir SR could learn to light a decent fire, 100ISO could have done it. ;)
 
But with Shaheed's terrible campfire skills, 100ISO and an aperture small enough for a couple of subjects, there'd have been no sign of the ambient. As @mike weeks says, it'd have needed a higher ISO.

Maybe if @Sir SR could learn to light a decent fire, 100ISO could have done it. ;)

A decent fire is a given !
 
Would it be too obvious to suggest diffusing the flash instead of reflecting it, I presume there is a reason why it hasn't already been mentioned.
I used to use a prizmatic panel in studio, this of course wouldn't be practical on a camp trip but I would have thought there'd be something more akin to a stofen that would do a similar job.
 
Would it be too obvious to suggest diffusing the flash instead of reflecting it, I presume there is a reason why it hasn't already been mentioned.
I used to use a prizmatic panel in studio, this of course wouldn't be practical on a camp trip but I would have thought there'd be something more akin to a stofen that would do a similar job.

It was more about using what kit was there. I'm sure people could suggest using all manner of kit but it was about trying to find a solution with the kit that was there.

I've got a lastolite soft box, triggers, lightstands, cto gels etc BUT ideally I want to use what's in my messenger bag - D800 sb900, 35/50/85 primes and a reflector.
 
Oh, I see, I thought it was about minimum kit

I suppose you could get creative with non photographic "stuff" you have with you...maybe

I think the reflector is gonna be difficult to use in those conditions, not impossible but its a lot of test faffing and shadow avoidance, time consuming, still.....its a challenge, respect for that..:)
 
Oh, I see, I thought it was about minimum kit

I suppose you could get creative with non photographic "stuff" you have with you...maybe

I think the reflector is gonna be difficult to use in those conditions, not impossible but its a lot of test faffing and shadow avoidance, time consuming, still.....its a challenge, respect for that..:)
To be honest, it's about getting the best shot with the kit available, without turning each trip into a photo shoot (with the associated kit). I find that having a reflector is a decent compromise as it can be used with natural light or to provide an otherwise unavailable surface to bounce a speedlight off. I took a couple of pics like this indoors in this thread (see pullback shot), which was dead quick to set up and didn't lose the girl's interest. Which tends to lead to better expressions/compliance!!

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...together-more-pics-added.601206/#post-7024597

I get that better results could be had with the appropriate kit but I'm trying to work out how the best result could be obtained with the kit at hand!

Cheers

S
 
No need to turn up the ISO Mike, when using flash as the main (key light) source the lower ISO the better. Typically 100 ISO is good enough. The f/stop controls the ambient light. I would use the fire as one light source and then light the subject the subject with the flash. A little snoot could also be used to as atmosphere. If you crank up the ISO then you don't need flash.

A photo like this is about ambiance and to capture any ambient light the ISO needs to go up that way we do not get a scene blasted out by flash. The exposure ideally needs to capture the fire and the flash is just used to raise the lighting on the faces and to achieve this without vast camera shake you up the ISO. If the exposure is right for the fire iyt wil most likely be wrong for the faces, hence a blip of fill in flash for them.

Mike
 
Would it be too obvious to suggest diffusing the flash instead of reflecting it, I presume there is a reason why it hasn't already been mentioned.
I used to use a prizmatic panel in studio, this of course wouldn't be practical on a camp trip but I would have thought there'd be something more akin to a stofen that would do a similar job.
A stofen or similar outside doesn't dramatically alter the size of the light source (they soften by bouncing light off various surfaces indoors) it won't make as soft a light as bouncing off a reflector outside.
 
Ok... Here's what to do...

  1. Buy a D750
  2. Use highlight metering mode
  3. Expose for the sky
  4. Use PP to recover the shadows
  5. Sit back and watch all the comments roll in saying your a s*** hot tog.
  6. Make a story up to tell other togs how you balanced the ambient and flash and this was the first shot SOOC.
:D

Was the reflector also a diffuser? I think i would have enlisted the help of someone to hold the stuff and shouted at them when I couldn't get it right.
 
A photo like this is about ambiance and to capture any ambient light the ISO needs to go up that way we do not get a scene blasted out by flash. The exposure ideally needs to capture the fire and the flash is just used to raise the lighting on the faces and to achieve this without vast camera shake you up the ISO. If the exposure is right for the fire iyt wil most likely be wrong for the faces, hence a blip of fill in flash for them.

Mike

I see where you are coming from Mike but lets look at this 'blasting out by flash'. What you're describing here is generally whats going to happen when you stick a flash on a camera and use TTL mode. If we take this scenario (the camp fire) then the camera will see the world in darkness and 'blatt' out a huge flash looking like the subject has been caught in a nuclear blast as it will try to over-compensate for the darkness. Even the most intelligent flashes are not that intelligent at time times and the results are unflattering and less than impressive.

As you say, the camp fire and subject is all about creating an atmosphere. Whilst I take your point about turning up the ISO, You'll certainly get a result, but it won't nececarilly be the best result as it will lead to more noise. I'm not a great advocate of sorting noise out in PP as I want to get the highest quality image I can in-camera. However, more importantly, using a high ISO makes the camera's sensor more receptive to available light, increases the shutter speed range and increases the flash range. This is the exact opposite of what I don't want when doing this type of photography ! For this reason I'll use a low ISO between 100-400.

Balancing Ambient light and Flash (and fill-in) , if you break it down is a two-stage process. You expose for the flash (distance / aperture) and you expose for the ambient light (shutter speed / f-stop). It's essentially a blend of two exposures that occur simultaneously, no wonder TTL gets confused and gets it wrong. It does not see what you are seeing and doesn't know what you're trying to achieve. I'll try and bring this all together in context and explain my approach which I didn't explain very well the first time round due to time restraints.

For this scenario, I'll select an aperture to achieve the depth-of-field I want to obtain using either the Aperture Priority Mode or Manual setting and select a slow shutter speed, this is where I'm going to start the exposure to capture the ambient light . Any movement of people is going to get frozen the moment the flash goes off 'Bang' at that moment in time, but it will capture the ambience and atmosphere. If I want to get really creative then I will decrease the shutter speed to 1/30 or lower, use a tripod and use rear curtain sync to show movement / motion blur and freeze the subject giving a natural and pleasing effect - but I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here !

Back on track if the flash on the subjects faces are overexposed I'll dial in a bit of flash minus(-) flash E/V if in AP mode, or if shooting In manual mode dial down the power output on the flashgun. One particularly useful accessory for this type of photography is a handheld flash meter. Taking an incident light reading from the subject takes all the guesswork out and is more accurate than the internal camera meter.

For individuals there are many ways of achieving similar results, this is just my approach and why it works for me. None of this is an exact science well 'it is' - it's just that I can't explain it and if I could it would be extremely tedious. Hope this helps just bring a few things into context and explain my rationale.
 
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Yes, balancing flash and ambient light is a two stage process. I find it helpful to remember that the starting point for any image involving ambient light of any sort, is that ambient light. In exposure setting terms, ambient takes priority because you can't change it - you must balance the flash to the ambient, and not the other way around.

In practise, the whole procedure often happens simultaneously but it's helpful to bear that in mind. Another thing, it's often said that shutter speed controls ambient and aperture controls flash, but that was never true! Shutter speed does not affect flash exposure, that's the only thing.

There are some other potential problems with this particular camp fire type situation. With bright flames and dark/black background, any auto exposure mode is going to struggle. Furthermore, any slight changes in framing are quite likely to change it. So I'd use manual settings for ambient, even if the flash is set on auto. The other difficulty is the fire is front-lighting the subject, which is uncommon for most flash/ambient situations where the ambient is only in the background and it's easy to adjust the exposures independently. Here though, even when the ambient exposure is perfect, the moment you add flash that will change. The name of the game then becomes compromise and juggling :)
 
I see where you are coming from Mike but lets look at this 'blasting out by flash'. What you're describing here is generally whats going to happen when you stick a flash on a camera and use TTL mode. If we take this scenario (the camp fire) then the camera will see the world in darkness and 'blatt' out a huge flash looking like the subject has been caught in a nuclear blast as it will try to over-compensate for the darkness. Even the most intelligent flashes are not that intelligent at time times and the results are unflattering and less than impressive.

I think you are missing 2 really important points

1. he has a D800 i.e. Noise is not an issue
2. I know a lot about photography, not as much as I would like but more than enough to give a good answer here

Mike
 
I think you are missing 2 really important points

1. he has a D800 i.e. Noise is not an issue
2. I know a lot about photography, not as much as I would like but more than enough to give a good answer here

Mike

I'm not missing anything Mike, I have a D810 I I know how it works and I've spent a whole career doing what I do. I've just put my viewpoint across, my rationale, my opinion.

I think you're missing the point mate. My response was to you, not the OP, you advocated using a high ISO, I have an alternative way of working and politely pointed out what works for me. I'm not the only one Joe McNally ( Nikon Flash ambassador) also uses a low ISO.

No need to come back on the bounce, be defensive or deflect my response and suggest I don't understand the OP ! It was you I quoted after all !

I'm sorry that my opinion / viewpoint wasn't received in the sprit that it was intended. It's replies like this that I often think, why bother responding on these forums, why give up my time. Anyway let it go. That is all !
 
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Thank you all for your responses. Stimulating discussion and nice to think about how to do it next time!

A few ways to skin a car it seems.

I might go watch some Bear Grylls to improve camp fire skills!!

Edit. Skin a cat even!!
 
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Ok... Here's what to do...

  1. Buy a D750
  2. Use highlight metering mode
  3. Expose for the sky
  4. Use PP to recover the shadows
  5. Sit back and watch all the comments roll in saying your a s*** hot tog.
  6. Make a story up to tell other togs how you balanced the ambient and flash and this was the first shot SOOC.
:D

Was the reflector also a diffuser? I think i would have enlisted the help of someone to hold the stuff and shouted at them when I couldn't get it right.


I like this plan about getting a d750, not sure SWMBO will go for it though!!

The reflector was a simple pop up one which I used to soften the flash by bouncing it onto the reflector. No diffuser.

S
 
So not a shoot through style reflector? A cheapy 5 in 1 makes for a nice big light source.
Nope, just my trusty trigrip rip off!!

Trying not to buy more gear (other than the d750 i'd like and maybe an 85 f1.4 - hurry up sigma!!) and use what I have!
 
So not a shoot through style reflector? A cheapy 5 in 1 makes for a nice big light source.
So does the tri grip, if used with a little care.

In this instance it needs to go in front of the camera, not behind. At either side, either with a gelled flash to add to the fire light from the same side as the fire, or at the opposite side to add a contrasting light source. But I have to admit, all that is with the benefit of hindsight, I'd have been as likely to make the same mistakes Shaheed did as to get it right first time.
 
So does the tri grip, if used with a little care.

In this instance it needs to go in front of the camera, not behind. At either side, either with a gelled flash to add to the fire light from the same side as the fire, or at the opposite side to add a contrasting light source. But I have to admit, all that is with the benefit of hindsight, I'd have been as likely to make the same mistakes Shaheed did as to get it right first time.

That was my thought. A lot of my recent pics have been indoors with bounced on camera flash with acceptable (to me) results. I found this a very quick and easy way of shooting. I wanted to replicate this "easier" way ( rather than carting around a soft box/triggers) so I brought my portable bounce surface with me.

ImageUploadedByTalk Photography Forums1441435987.428047.jpgI i used this indoors to get less of the direct flashed look.

ImageUploadedByTalk Photography Forums1441436047.763749.jpgImageUploadedByTalk Photography Forums1441436057.380828.jpg

BUT it's a lot trickier outdoors, well it required more thought, well at least time for thought, which the kids don't always provide!
 
Love those shots. The wood frame needs cropping though. ;)
Fair point[emoji106]

I often shoot a frame like that, thinking it's adding something...

Then I get it home and think.... Nope

For it to add, there has to be loads more of it.

Gorgeous shots of the girls though
 
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