Background Blur / Defocus

neil_g

neil_g

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First Sony start advertising the revolutionary new "background defocus" but just seen Olympus new PEN advert which highlights the ability to "blur backgrounds".

:cuckoo:

Well you have to hand it to marketing departments.. taking an existing function and giving it a new name.. but i guess thats essentially what marketing do.

and i guess the average consumer doesnt a) care or b) know any better.

either way it always get a choice word from me when the advert comes on :lol:
 
neil_g said:
First Sony start advertising the revolutionary new "background defocus" but just seen Olympus new PEN advert which highlights the ability to "blur backgrounds".

:cuckoo:

Well you have to hand it to marketing departments.. taking an existing function and giving it a new name.. but i guess thats essentially what marketing do.

and i guess the average consumer doesnt a) care or b) know any better.

either way it always get a choice word from me when the advert comes on :lol:
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Your not wrong people have been doing it for donkeys....by adjusting their apertures!!
 
I did roll my eyes when that advert was on.

How long till someone says to me, oh you have that background defocus thing on your camera :lol:
 
It's probably the computer working out focus and DoF and creating the optimum amount of 'defocus' that can be achieved with the lens at a specific aperture and not the same as changing aperture.

Canon used to do it on its 35mm cameras but the other way round, with a (depth-of-field (DEP mode) where you selected two different focus points (pressing the shutter twice to do so) and then the camera chose somewhere inbetween to give the desired amount of sharpness, so to speak.

If it gets people into photography on another level then so be it
 
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i have always wondered why people think those 'settings' on the dial can make the lens or the camera do something other than you can make it do in manual

the blurred background feature must be the latest 'technological advance' in digital photography??
 
Sony's "background defocus" is a way of faking proper oof in a small sensor camera. They describe it as follows:

"The camera takes two shots, identifies the background and applies a defocus effect keeping your subject crisp and clear in the foreground."
 
Sorry, but I thought everybody was complaining that one of the problems with compact cameras was the you couldn't get this sort of effect. Now that the manufacturers have found a possible solution why are you all taking the mickey? Or have I missed something?
 
Moan all you like, but I bet sony have made more selling cameras today than you will in your whole life :P

These nifty little mirrorless interchangable lens cameras are bringing features normally reserved for those carrying half a kilo or more of camera to the pocket-sized point and snap market. How do you convince a consumer to ditch teir point and shoot and buy a new sony without highlighting its advantages?
And I will only take "but you could already do this with a camera, you just had to learn how" as a valid arguement if you can tell me you have never used auto exposure or auto focus.
 
The Matt said:
Moan all you like, but I bet sony have made more selling cameras today than you will in your whole life :P

These nifty little mirrorless interchangable lens cameras are bringing features normally reserved for those carrying half a kilo or more of camera to the pocket-sized point and snap market. How do you convince a consumer to ditch teir point and shoot and buy a new sony without highlighting its advantages?
And I will only take "but you could already do this with a camera, you just had to learn how" as a valid arguement if you can tell me you have never used auto exposure or auto focus.
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how do you take macro with a mirrorless upmarket digital
i have compacts with electronic viewfinders...which enable you to see the are being photographed..
autofocus is good for tired eyes...auto exposure is dangerous like no steering but you can see where you think you are going
cheers
geof
 
I think a few people have missed the point...

Up until recently it was virtually impossible to defocus the background on a compact camera (due to the tiny sensor and slowish lens giving a permanently huge DOF).

The ability to have a limited DOF on something compact is good and I'm glad to hear of it.
 
mrcrow said:
i have always wondered why people think those 'settings' on the dial can make the lens or the camera do something other than you can make it do in manual

Oh, but lots of folks do! My friend's husband has got two fancy cameras, each worth about £2000. I asked him if he knew how the cameras worked, and he said, 'oh, aye, but I just use auto because camera knows best'!
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gabe said:
mrcrow said:
i have always wondered why people think those 'settings' on the dial can make the lens or the camera do something other than you can make it do in manual
Click to expand...

Oh, but lots of folks do! My friend's husband has got two fancy cameras, each worth about £2000. I asked him if he knew how the cameras worked, and he said, 'oh, aye, but I just use auto because camera knows best'!
Click to expand...

so goes the way of the horse and the cart in complete abandon
:shake:
 
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gabe said:
mrcrow said:
i have always wondered why people think those 'settings' on the dial can make the lens or the camera do something other than you can make it do in manual
Click to expand...
Oh, but lots of folks do! My friend's husband has got two fancy cameras, each worth about £2000. I asked him if he knew how the cameras worked, and he said, 'oh, aye, but I just use auto because camera knows best'!
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The camera can work out the 'correct' settings a lot faster than I can.
Usually, I'll use Tv/Av, and if the camera doesn't get it right, use the settings that it produces for a quick-start when I switch to manual. The human is still in control as to what settings are 'correct' there.
 
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mrcrow said:
how do you take macro with a mirrorless upmarket digital
i have compacts with electronic viewfinders...which enable you to see the are being photographed..
autofocus is good for tired eyes...auto exposure is dangerous like no steering but you can see where you think you are going
cheers
geof
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I'm not sure what your point is here?
I have a 'mirrorless upmarket digital' and if I want to take macro I will buy a macro lens :shrug:
 
coldpenguin said:
The camera can work out the 'correct' settings a lot faster than I can.
Usually, I'll use Tv/Av, and if the camera doesn't get it right, use the settings that it produces for a quick-start when I switch to manual. The human is still in control as to what settings are 'correct' there.
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imho...there are no correct settings....its what you want your image to portray
a shot at f22 can look just as good at f2..if you dont need dof
likewise a tripod shot at any speed...assuming static subject matter...well you know
after that its highlights and shadows
sharpness and composition
and finally
pp

auto is nauto
 
How exactly does this work then? I'm assuming it takes 2 shots, one wih the subject in focus and one with the background out of focus, then just merging the two shots together?

Doesn't sound like it would work all too well on moving subjects?
 
guybrush said:
How exactly does this work then? I'm assuming it takes 2 shots, one wih the subject in focus and one with the background out of focus, then just merging the two shots together?

Doesn't sound like it would work all too well on moving subjects?
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if its only on faces then face recogition technology could be employed...

your idea sounds interesting though:geek:
 
Two things worry me. First, the makers plan to do this with prosumer DSLR's. In this way anyone can be a pro, take weddings, whatever and blur the background at will. Not by opening the aperture, but by telling the camera to do it. Secondly, any numpty will be able to take photographs, without ever understanding what they do..........
 
String said:
Two things worry me. First, the makers plan to do this with prosumer DSLR's. In this way anyone can be a pro, take weddings, whatever and blur the background at will. Not by opening the aperture, but by telling the camera to do it. Secondly, any numpty will be able to take photographs, without ever understanding what they do..........
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The Panasonic GH2 allows you to select the are to be focuseed on by touching the screen and it will then blur the background, but I think it's by manipulation of the aperture and focus point rather than any software processing.

I would imagine the software 2 shot forgery is going to fail miserably if you try and use it in a macro shot with say only the tip of a long leaf in focus and looking along it's length...
 
Alan Clogwyn said:
The Panasonic GH2 allows you to select the are to be focuseed on by touching the screen and it will then blur the background, but I think it's by manipulation of the aperture and focus point rather than any software processing.

I would imagine the software 2 shot forgery is going to fail miserably if you try and use it in a macro shot with say only the tip of a long leaf in focus and looking along it's length...
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You might be right Alan, I don't know.

I do know I shall continue to manage my DOF with my lens's aperture :)
 
neil_g said:
First Sony start advertising the revolutionary new "background defocus"
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That made oi larf that did! I thought isn't that what photographers have been doing since the year dot?
 
String said:
Two things worry me. First, the makers plan to do this with prosumer DSLR's. In this way anyone can be a pro, take weddings, whatever and blur the background at will. Not by opening the aperture, but by telling the camera to do it. Secondly, any numpty will be able to take photographs, without ever understanding what they do..........
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If wedding photographers can't provide anything better than what a compact camera can achieve via trickery then they aren't very good anyway. ;)
 
paulcamcas said:
Sony's "background defocus" is a way of faking proper oof in a small sensor camera. They describe it as follows:

"The camera takes two shots, identifies the background and applies a defocus effect keeping your subject crisp and clear in the foreground."
Click to expand...

Now why does that part worry me.
 
String said:
Two things worry me. First, the makers plan to do this with prosumer DSLR's. In this way anyone can be a pro, take weddings, whatever and blur the background at will. Not by opening the aperture, but by telling the camera to do it. Secondly, any numpty will be able to take photographs, without ever understanding what they do..........
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...and that doesn't happen already???? :thinking:

I don't think good wedding photographers will be worried about people with a bit of tech at their fingertips, not if they're any good anyway.....
 
specialman said:
...and that doesn't happen already???? :thinking:

I don't think good wedding photographers will be worried about people with a bit of tech at their fingertips, not if they're any good anyway.....
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Of course it happens already :)

I have no doubt whatsoever that good wedding togs will have no worries at all.

Yet. :)
 
gabe said:
Oh, but lots of folks do! My friend's husband has got two fancy cameras, each worth about £2000. I asked him if he knew how the cameras worked, and he said, 'oh, aye, but I just use auto because camera knows best'!
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If he's paid 2k for each camera it shouldn't have an 'Auto' setting :thinking:
 
So basically reading most of the post's on this thread , I say most as I did not read all.But a lot of you are all ****ed off because someone can now pick up a compact with no or little knowledge of taking pictures and achieve an effect you have spent a while learning on your SLR/DSLR .Yes it's gutting to you , but get over it .All or most of you are driving ABS cars that can best part of out brake a professional driver in bad conditions who is driving a non ABS car ,it's called progress, how many of you are bitching about that one !!!
 
Nah, not worried at all. Same was said about Program modes, auto-focus and zoom lenses ;) Looking forward to a new category of award: 'most inappropriate use of defocus'
Years some of us spent in smelly, usually cold, darkrooms; inhaling fumes that the HSE would have a fit over at work. Learning to dodge, burn and mask. Mask with real cut-it-out of cardboard mask. Choosing the 'right' grade of paper etc.
Now any numpty with a PC/Mac and PS can do it. Oh well. :)
(But it still remains, can any numpty do it well!)
 
Sparks68uk said:
So basically reading most of the post's on this thread , I say most as I did not read all.But a lot of you are all ****ed off because someone can now pick up a compact with no or little knowledge of taking pictures and achieve an effect you have spent a while learning on your SLR/DSLR .Yes it's gutting to you , but get over it .All or most of you are driving ABS cars that can best part of out brake a professional driver in bad conditions who is driving a non ABS car ,it's called progress, how many of you are bitching about that one !!!
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No, I hate terrible phrasology on advertisements and anything that is produced by the media which is supposed to be informative. People are not (all) comepletely stupid. Sadly, advertising companies don't tend to realise this. Bored me when I worked in advertising, bores me even more now.

To be frank, a person can invest in all the photography gear they want. They could spend hundreds of thousands. However, it doesn't mean that they have the first idea on photography or that their images will be any good. Composition for a start...

For example, a random well known wedding tog on here is Simon Revill. (Hope you don't mind me using you as an example.) His work is some of the best I've seen. What's-their-name could go and buy exactly the same gear as Simon has, or gear that could dumb down the process of taking some photographs, as is implied by Sony and Olympus' advertisements for their new cameras, but it doesn't mean that what's-their-name is going to get any result remotely comparitive to Simon's.

Photography is more accessible to the masses now - and there are so many products for numpties, that almost anyone can take a "nice shot" - however, if you don't have a clue, that "nice shot" was probably more of a "lucky shot". Sadly, too many of those "lucky shot" wannabe-togs, believe that they are amazing photographers because they got a handful of lucky shots and someone gave them some arse licking for it...and bizarrely they seem to have social skills to be envious of, that somehow make them develop a thriving business selling really naff shots.
 
Hmm, quick re-read of my post, badly, hurriedly, written. I'm night-concierge, the natives are restless lol. I was trying to make a point that things change, we adapted, we will adapt. No amount of tech can (yet??) replace a good practiced eye.
It sort of read like 'we used to live int septik tank int middle o' lake' (Four Yorkshiremen, Secret Poilceman's Ball). Sorry.
 
Sparks68uk said:
So basically reading most of the post's on this thread , I say most as I did not read all.But a lot of you are all ****ed off because someone can now pick up a compact with no or little knowledge of taking pictures and achieve an effect you have spent a while learning on your SLR/DSLR .Yes it's gutting to you , but get over it .All or most of you are driving ABS cars that can best part of out brake a professional driver in bad conditions who is driving a non ABS car ,it's called progress, how many of you are bitching about that one !!!
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:plusone: I'm with you on this one one Mark. I wonder how many of them don't use their autofocus, auto white balance, stabilized lenses etc.. and all the other improvements that have been added to modern cameras.
 
Sparks68uk said:
So basically reading most of the post's on this thread , I say most as I did not read all.But a lot of you are all ****ed off because someone can now pick up a compact with no or little knowledge of taking pictures and achieve an effect you have spent a while learning on your SLR/DSLR .Yes it's gutting to you , but get over it .All or most of you are driving ABS cars that can best part of out brake a professional driver in bad conditions who is driving a non ABS car ,it's called progress, how many of you are bitching about that one !!!
Click to expand...

I think the only grumbles here have been about the advert itself, and how the message has been put across and worded.
As for learning about aperture and DoF, it probably only takes the best part of ten minutes to learn with a DSLR. In the past it took a few rolls of film, which was a relatively long time.
As others have pointed out, any type of camera in the hands of a fool will not produce good results (well, it may do occasionally!), and the more gimmicks which the manufacturers provide, will lead to less people learning the basics. Most people I have seen with compacts/bridge cameras, use live view all the time. I use the other method, because it braces the camera correctly.
Progress is good, dumbing down is not good.
 
There's seems to be some confusion about people wanting to know the intricacies of photography (aperture, shutter speed, DoF etc) and people who want to take a photo that looks the nuts with very little effort. That's what the advert is trying to put across; you can use this technology to create something that bit more special...

Continuously amazes me how, when some people get to know a bit more about photography, it suddenly empowers them to looks down their noses at the people just one rung below them on the ladder....
 
DemiLion said:
They'll have Program Mode which on default settings is pretty much the same thing.
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Errrm! .... No it isn't .... not on Canon anyway ... :thinking:
 
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