Beginner Back button and auto focus

Its the other way round, because ive been shooting a lot for 32 years my muscle memory says shutter half pressed to focus . Pressing the back button instead is counter intuitive and not for me.
 
The main advantage of BBF is that you don't need to keep recomposing after each shot - the shutter press isn't refocussing every time. So you can pick a focus point then let go of the focus button, compose away and take multiple shots without focus hunting/changing between them. Means you can be faster and not miss anything due to refocusing every time.
It takes a bit of getting used to, but not much!
 
I know what the theory is, i'm just saying it isnt for everybody - in my opinion with a decent lens you arent going to miss much due to microseconds taken refocussing anyway, unless your subject is moving in which case locking the focus point i going to be pointless anyway
 
big soft moose said:
I know what the theory is, i'm just saying it isnt for everybody - in my opinion with a decent lens you arent going to miss much due to microseconds taken refocussing anyway, unless your subject is moving in which case locking the focus point i going to be pointless anyway
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I used to think the same as you but logic was telling me 1000s of people all saying the same thing was worth persevering. I'd never go back to the focus / shutter combination now.
 
big soft moose said:
Its the other way round, because ive been shooting a lot for 32 years my muscle memory says shutter half pressed to focus . Pressing the back button instead is counter intuitive and not for me.
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We've clearly been using different gear, I didn't go AF till after the millenium when I'd been shooting 20 years, so half pressing the shutter button to focus is weird. BBF separates focussing and shooting, which is intuitive in my head. Whenever I pick up a camera with shutter button focussing, I end up wrestling with it.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
I used to think the same as you but logic was telling me 1000s of people all saying the same thing was worth persevering. I'd never go back to the focus / shutter combination now.
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I tend to the 'aint broke/ don't fix it' school of thought - there may be thousands saying BBF is the new god fall downand worship it, but there are still tens of thousands- including every major camera manufacturers default settings- using the shutter button to focus.

when i come across a situation where i think "damn i wish i had to press two buttons instead of one to take this shot" then i might reconsider - but until then I think i'll just keep going with what works for me
 
Phil V said:
We've clearly been using different gear, I didn't go AF till after the millenium when I'd been shooting 20 years, so half pressing the shutter button to focus is weird. BBF separates focussing and shooting, which is intuitive in my head. Whenever I pick up a camera with shutter button focussing, I end up wrestling with it.
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didnt I buy a DSLR from you a few years back ? :confused:

I've been using AF first on pentax, and then on canon eos since I got back into photography in a big way in the late 90s - prior to that most of my experience was with compacts where the AF was on the shutter biutton anyway (I did have an ilford fixed lens thing, and then my late grandads Konica SLR which were focus on the lens ring but they were the exception not the rule)
 
Your right it's not for everybody, I've been pressing the button since 1984 when there was no other choice (apart from the cable release / self timer). I didn't realise or understand the benefits until I studied them. In the beginning I couldn't see the point in it. However, that was soon to change ( evolution not revolution) If you have no inclination or interest then that's fine but I don't subscribe to the principle you can't unlearn how to stop using the shutter and start to learn how to press the BBF. Repetition creates muscle memory and if you use your camera with some frequency it will just click into place (no pun intended) - you've tried it which does suggest a bit of interest, so maybe it is worth practising ? - if not then use whatever you feel comfortable with.
 
The BBF is invaluable to me, nothing has improved the sharpness of my images more and my retention rate on shots for BTS and unit stills went up incredibly after I changed. It's not just the focusing either, being able to lock exposure from the shutter is fantastic. I can point at my exposure target, lock exposure and then lock focus as well, and recompose and shoot. This has meant I can click less and think more and the resulting shots are better in every way.

I never take my camera off manual, even in situations with rapidly changing light and where I'm having to shoot in a hurry and I only ever use single centre point focus and standard drive mode. I've tried AP, using all focus points, and AI Servo, but they all resulted in my retention getting worse. During a CPS meeting last year I asked Canon's David Watson about AI Focus and he confirmed for me what I'd worked out already (I'd wondered if I was doing something wrong), it doesn't work.

As has been said already, there will never be a system that works for everyone :)
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Your right it's not for everybody, I've been pressing the button since 1984 when there was no other choice (apart from the cable release / self timer). I didn't realise or understand the benefits until I studied them. In the beginning I couldn't see the point in it. However, that was soon to change ( evolution not revolution) If you have no inclination or interest then that's fine but I don't subscribe to the principle you can't unlearn how to stop using the shutter and start to learn how to press the BBF. Repetition creates muscle memory and if you use your camera with some frequency it will just click into place (no pun intended) - you've tried it which does suggest a bit of interest, so maybe it is worth practising ? - if not then use whatever you feel comfortable with.
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I started using BBF a few weeks ago, really just to see what it was like and not expecting to stick with it but after only a few hours it felt pretty natural. I still, albeit pretty rarely now, forget where the button is on occasions and have to look for it but most of the time my thumb is on the button by muscle memory as you say. What I find I really like is the separate thought processes of focusing and metering, rather than one button doing both, makes me think more about what I want to focus on and what I want to meter off.
 
sirch said:
I started using BBF a few weeks ago, really just to see what it was like and not expecting to stick with it but after only a few hours it felt pretty natural. I still, albeit pretty rarely now, forget where the button is on occasions and have to look for it but most of the time my thumb is on the button by muscle memory as you say. What I find I really like is the separate thought processes of focusing and metering, rather than one button doing both, makes me think more about what I want to focus on and what I want to meter off.
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Yep, you've nailed it and found the benefits, it's evolution ! cameras are evolving all the time, take advantage and reap the benefits. That said, there's still a place for 35mm / 120mm < cameras and the like which I learned my trade but still plenty of merit in using new technology.
 
I tried BBF a while ago, yes for more than 1 outing, and I'll be honest I don't see the benefit of it for the way I shoot, and even less now with my current 1DX and 7D2 as I use the back buttons all the time for different things depending on what I'm shooting. On these cameras using BBF limits you from making full use of the cameras' capabilities, IMVHO and again depending on what you shoot.

I do see the point if you often need to switch between something static and something moving or focus-recompose, but then I assign the DoF button to switch between One-Shot and AI-Servo when I need to. Likewise I've always used the AE-lock button if I need to separate the exposure from what I'm focussing on.

If you use BBF and you get on with it then that's great, you have to use what works best for you. But it does annoy me when some people make out that if you don't use BBF then you're not a good photographer.
 
Toggerman said:
If you use BBF and you get on with it then that's great, you have to use what works best for you. But it does annoy me when some people make out that if you don't use BBF then you're not a good photographer.
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:agree:
 
Toggerman said:
I tried BBF a while ago, yes for more than 1 outing, and I'll be honest I don't see the benefit of it for the way I shoot, and even less now with my current 1DX and 7D2 as I use the back buttons all the time for different things depending on what I'm shooting. On these cameras using BBF limits you from making full use of the cameras' capabilities, IMVHO and again depending on what you shoot.

I do see the point if you often need to switch between something static and something moving or focus-recompose, but then I assign the DoF button to switch between One-Shot and AI-Servo when I need to. Likewise I've always used the AE-lock button if I need to separate the exposure from what I'm focussing on.

If you use BBF and you get on with it then that's great, you have to use what works best for you. But it does annoy me when some people make out that if you don't use BBF then you're not a good photographer.
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I don't think I have read any posts where anybody has acutely said this. (If I have missed this please feel free to point this out to me.)

As I said in post #48 use whatever works for you......
 
Blank_Canvas said:
I don't think I have read any posts where anybody has acutely said this. (If I have missed this please feel free to point this out to me.)

As I said in post #48 use whatever works for you......
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I didn't say it was anyone in this thread, but it does happen.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Ok.... ?
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It was a generalised comment not confined to this thread, forum or even the Internet.

That said, saying that using BBF is evolutionary in how to use a camera does also imply that I am unevolved, ergo inferior, because I user the shutter button, so that does have a whiff of elitism regarding the usage of BBF.
 
Toggerman said:
It was a generalised comment not confined to this thread, forum or even the Internet.

That said, saying that using BBF is evolutionary in how to use a camera does also imply that I am unevolved, ergo inferior, because I user the shutter button, so that does have a whiff of elitism regarding the usage of BBF.
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I suppose you could apply that principle to people who don't, carry a mobile phone, have a flat screen LCD or even own a computer.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
I suppose you could apply that principle to people who don't, carry a mobile phone, have a flat screen LCD or even own a computer.
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Correct, and mobile phones are probably the worst for this due to fierce competition and short time between upgrade models. No matter what phone you have there are always people ready to point out its inferiority compared to theirs, whether it be age, manufacturer, screen size/resolution, OS or some other stupid reason that ultimately doesn't matter.
 
the advice is that we change focus system by situation, we don't wait for something to move then change it.

But if you don't use ai focus that only leaves one shot and ai servo. If you don't wait to change the mode what happens when you are shooting a stationary subject that all of the sudden starts moving? Point is you pick the mode for the situation but the situation may change without notice (a person gets up and walks away) and in that case it is faster to let the camera change modes then manually change the mode. I'm confused to why that is not understood or considered useful. I think it is safe to say that not every situation will be predictable and for that reason the AI focus works better then switching back and forth between the modes.
The only reason that it would be "crap" is if you were not using it correctly and or you should be in ai servo.
 
landwomble said:
The main advantage of BBF is that you don't need to keep recomposing after each shot - the shutter press isn't refocussing every time. So you can pick a focus point then let go of the focus button, compose away and take multiple shots without focus hunting/changing between them. Means you can be faster and not miss anything due to refocusing every time.

And,,, it is fast and more accurate because you can lock focus on a moving target while holding down the back button and firing off shots here and there. With the traditional front button the focus system has to refocus each time you lift your finger unless you hold it down.
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shaylou said:
With the traditional front button the focus system has to refocus each time you lift your finger unless you hold it down.
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The release of the shutter button also has 2 positions, you can fire off some shots and release straight back into the half-pressed position without stopping the AF. I do it with all the sports and action stuff I shoot, firing off small bursts here and there whilst constantly focussing.
 
crundi said:
Still on the subject of focus, I heard someone say that focus achieved through LiveView was consistently sharper over using the viewfinder. (I'm talking auto focus here, not zooming in and setting focus manually).
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....The main advantage of LiveView (unless you are shooting video) is when photographing a fairly static subject on a tripod and you can 'zoom' in to fine tune the focus. There's too much delay if shooting high frame rates - For stills, LiveView behaves at strictly one shot at a time more like a non-digital camera.

I use a 7D Mark II and expect that the 5D Mark III also has the ability to customise BBF on both the AF-ON and AE-LOCK (* star icon) buttons - I have AF + ONE-SHOT + 1 AF pt on one button and AF + AI-SERVO + AF zone on the other button. Being side by side it's all easy-peasy under my thumb.
 
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Toggerman said:
The release of the shutter button also has 2 positions, you can fire off some shots and release straight back into the half-pressed position without stopping the AF. I do it with all the sports and action stuff I shoot, firing off small bursts here and there whilst constantly focussing.
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....It's good that Canon offer us more than one way to shoot. Whenever I have tried your technique, Scott, I find I make mistakes by accidentally firing the shutter again in all the excitement of some action instead of only returning to AF.
 
Toggerman said:
The release of the shutter button also has 2 positions, you can fire off some shots and release straight back into the half-pressed position without stopping the AF. I do it with all the sports and action stuff I shoot, firing off small bursts here and there whilst constantly focussing.
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Most can't do that. It is so much easier with the back button.
 
RedRobin said:
....The main advantage of LiveView (unless you are shooting video) is when photographing a fairly static subject on a tripod and you can 'zoom' in to fine tune the focus. There's too much delay if shooting high frame rates - For stills, LiveView behaves at strictly one shot at a time more like a non-digital camera.

I use a 7D Mark II and expect that the 5D Mark III also has the ability to customise BBF on both the AF-ON and AE-LOCK (* star icon) buttons - I have AF + ONE-SHOT + 1 AF pt on one button and AF + AI-SERVO + AF zone on the other button. Being side by side it's all easy-peasy under my thumb.
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I think the live view comment was taken out of context. We were talking about something completely different.

But do agree about the back button. I have used both and back button is really a lot easier for me. Some people simply don't like change or like the way they are doing it now so won't try it. That's fine, we tried lol
 
shaylou said:
Most can't do that. It is so much easier with the back button.
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There is a fair amount of finesse to it, my wife can't do it as she stabs the shutter as though it makes a difference to its speed :confused:. My point though was that the shutter button method doesn't have to refocus each time.
 
As a noob I've already found a great reason to use bbf and that's for landscapes and other filter shots. I was shooting through three nd filters and the camera wouldn't focus all that easily. BBF allowed me to focus, leave it set and then attach or push the filters into place, just leaving me to meter/dial in my speed. This wouldn't be possible on the kit lens if you had to focus manually THEN attach filters, because the front of the lens turns. I left BBF set up and have not found a reason to change it back.
 
Forkbeard said:
As a noob I've already found a great reason to use bbf and that's for landscapes and other filter shots. I was shooting through three nd filters and the camera wouldn't focus all that easily. BBF allowed me to focus, leave it set and then attach or push the filters into place, just leaving me to meter/dial in my speed. This wouldn't be possible on the kit lens if you had to focus manually THEN attach filters, because the front of the lens turns. I left BBF set up and have not found a reason to change it back.
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Yes that's a great reason to use it of course you can always use AF to focus on and then put it into manual. It's a bit like taking your car out of gear.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Yes that's a great reason to use it of course you can always use AF to focus on and then put it into manual. It's a bit like taking your car out of gear.
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Certainly - but BBF is much more efficient:
Switching to MF:
  1. Focus camera
  2. Switch lens to MF
  3. Insert filters
  4. Shoot
  5. Review
  6. remove filters
  7. switch lens to AF
  8. Re-Focus Camera
  9. Switch lens to MF
  10. Insert filters
  11. Shoot
  12. Review
BBF Method:
  1. Focus Camera
  2. Insert filters
  3. Shoot
  4. Review
  5. remove filters
  6. Re-Focus Camera
  7. Insert filters
  8. Shoot
  9. Review
 
Not to mention the MF turning kit lens if you're using one. Attaching filters is like diffusing a bomb!
 
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Phil V said:
Certainly - but BBF is much more efficient:
Switching to MF:
  1. Focus camera
  2. Switch lens to MF
  3. Insert filters
  4. Shoot
  5. Review
  6. remove filters
  7. switch lens to AF
  8. Re-Focus Camera
  9. Switch lens to MF
  10. Insert filters
  11. Shoot
  12. Review
BBF Method:
  1. Focus Camera
  2. Insert filters
  3. Shoot
  4. Review
  5. remove filters
  6. Re-Focus Camera
  7. Insert filters
  8. Shoot
  9. Review
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I generally use the following process

1 Focus camera
2 Shoot

3 Apply filters in lightoom
 
Blank_Canvas said:
No good whatsoever if you need a ND or a polariser, you can't replicate that in Lightroom !
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fair enough , but in those cases i don't bother switching back to AF to refocus, If I need to after review which frequently i don't, i just do it manually

however 90% of my filter use was ND grad or 81B warm up - both of which are pretty well replicated in lightroom
 
big soft moose said:
fair enough , but in those cases i don't bother switching back to AF to refocus, If I need to after review which frequently i don't, i just do it manually

however 90% of my filter use was ND grad or 81B warm up - both of which are pretty well replicated in lightroom
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Lightroom can never really replicate the traditional use of a polariser or ND filter. It's a placebo, the results are extremely limited. When light is harsh or intense and you need to use a slow shutter speed or run the risk of over exposure. The neutral density filter blocks out light from all wavelengths, giving you a darker picture overall. It's also useful to blur out motion, or or to eliminate people walking around in a busy place or street. This needs to be done at the exposing the image stage, it's too late to do this in post post processing.

It's use today is just as relevant when using film, when two conflicting exposure variables (light and dark) occur reciprocity failure can ensue.

Lightroom does its best to try to 2nd guess the results that you are trying to create but in reality if overblown highlights have not been controlled then there is no amount of PP that can recover it. That's why traditional ND filters are invaluable.

Lightroom filters do a reasonable job of replicating a Wratten 81b in lieu of adjusting your white balance at the time but LR doesn't cut the mustard mustard when it comes to replicating a ND or a polariser. A traditional filter needs to be used on the camera before pressing the shutter and subsequent exposure.
 
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Blank_Canvas said:
It's also useful to blur out motion, or or to eliminate people walking around in a busy place or street. This needs to be done at the exposing the image stage, it's too late to do this in post post processing.
.
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I know what an ND does :banghead: - and yes its easier to use it at source, however BBF is not an essential part of using it - as you note yourself people have been using them for ages before BBF became available.

however with regard to an ND grad -since going digital (or at least since the advent of decent raw processing) i havent used one at all - its easlier to either apply a gradn LR or if too extreme for that to bracket the shot and merge the exposures in PP
 
big soft moose said:
I know what an ND does :banghead: - and yes its easier to use it at source, however BBF is not an essential part of using it - as you note yourself people have been using them for ages before BBF became available.
PP
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At no stage did I say, or imply BBF was a prerequisite for using filters. I merely pointed out that Lightroom was not the panacea for all filter uses and that its widely accepted that NDs are better served during the taking stage rather than in PP so not to compromise the exposure or induce blown out areas when faced with two conflicting lighting situations e.g bright sky, dark land. Yep, I take your point you can make corrections in LR or PS etc etc but it's a lot easier and quicker to use a ND in the first place and results are generally better.
 
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