Auto focus settings for outdoor 'lively' portrait shoot

[Gary Coyle]

Isn't that logical? If the majority of graduates have a great portfolio, the course has a strong graduate show, and the alumni are well placed in industry, how is that not a measure of whether the course is doing what it's designed to do?

Can you suggest a better benchmark?

Were you her tutor David

 

[Pookeyhead]

Well, I think that the standard and ability of graduates largely reflects the standard and ability of the lecturers, and all reflect the design of the course. To say, as you do here, that the only way to judge a course is by its graduates strikes me as extremely blinkered.

I agree with you, and like I said, if a course produces graduates that can produce great work, a great graduate show, and then go on to work in the industry it usually implies that they are producing graduates of a fairly high standard. Graduates of a low standard will produce crap work, a weak graduate show, and probably end up working in Tesco.


You've still not answered my question: What would YOU suggest is a good benchmark by which to judge the quality of a course if mine isn't a reliable indicator?

Were you her tutor David

You think I'd be offering grades to allow a students to pass if they don't know how to use a camera? Does that fit my profile to you somehow? Have you not read anything I've ever posted in crit threads?

I can't understand how a course can produce a student that gets a 2:1, but doesn't understand basic technical stuff like this though... I must admit, while I'd like to defend higher education on principle, it seems that in this case, it is likely the course has failed in this regard.

 

[Gary Coyle]

You think I'd be offering grades to allow a students to pass if they don't know how to use a camera? Does that fit my profile to you somehow? Have you not read anything I've ever posted in crit threads?

So she is then!!!!

Anyway, i killed this thread stone dead which is exactly what it needed.

 

[Pookeyhead]

So she is then!!!!

Anyway, i killed this thread stone dead which is exactly what it needed.

Any particular reason you're being an arse, or is it just a genetic predisposition?

 

[jon ryan]

David, you clearly have a broad knowledge of photography, you have posted some jaw-droppingly good photos (I'm thinking of your star shots in particular), and you expound lucidly on many aspects of producing photos (are you publishing this stuff? There is always room in the market for another good guide. And you are bloody good at this).

However, you often come over as extremely touchy. As soon as anyone challenges your view, you bridle. You also come up with some quite ludicrous, unconsidered statements, such as ' the only way to judge a course is by its graduates' that is so obviously wrong that you must be aware of the fact. You are far too intelligent for this be otherwise. But when you are pulled up on this, instead of graciously accepting that you are wrong and offering a modified statement, you fly off the handle.

To answer your question, I repeat what I have previously said: a course can only be judged good if all its elements are properly considered and executed. It is a joint thing, depending on the course structure, the quality of those who deliver it, and their ability to bring the best from the students. The quality of the resultant work is a reflection of this, along with the ability of the student.

 

[Pookeyhead]

To answer your question, I repeat what I have previously said: a course can only be judged good if all its elements are properly considered and executed. It is a joint thing, depending on the course structure, the quality of those who deliver it, and their ability to bring the best from the students. The quality of the resultant work is a reflection of this, along with the ability of the student.

Isn't that what I said?

 

[jon ryan]

Isn't that what I said?

It may be what you intended to say, but what you posted was this:

In short: Are they are obliged to ensure students are capable of coping with the course on entry? Yes. Are they obliged to check they are capable of being employed upon graduation? No... because that's impossible to ascertain upon entry to a three year course. Are they obliged to do everything possible in the three years to ensure they are equipped for industry upon graduation? Yes, or course.

They are obliged to ensure that the student upon graduation has had every available option and opportunity to learn what they will need to know, and had every facility available to them in order to allow that to happen, and to create a portfolio of work that reflects this.

Does every student achieve this level despite the above? Of course not. Is that the institutions fault? No.. of course not.

There's only one way to judge a course, and that's by it's graduates. How many of them are employed in photography or a related field.. and also by looking at the quality of it's graduate shows and talking to currently enrolled students. Judging a whole course by one student, whether that student be brilliant, or not.. is next to useless as a benchmark.

There is a fair bit of internal contradiction in there. You seem to be saying on one hand that the ability of the graduate is the only benchmark - you do use the word 'only' - but then seem to accept that the tutors have some responsibly in how the graduates may turn out. You then go on to say:

I agree with you, and like I said, if a course produces graduates that can produce great work...

etc,

which again suggests that you accept that the quality of the course (in which I would include the quality of its tutors) plays a vital part in the result, contradicting your original statement.

To Gary you say:

You think I'd be offering grades to allow a students to pass if they don't know how to use a camera? Does that fit my profile to you somehow? Have you not read anything I've ever posted in crit threads?

I can't understand how a course can produce a student that gets a 2:1, but doesn't understand basic technical stuff like this though... I must admit, while I'd like to defend higher education on principle, it seems that in this case, it is likely the course has failed in this regard.

...acknowledging that is is possible that the course had failed the graduate by not picking up fundamental gaps in knowledge and ability. (Incidentally, you also demonstrate quite a bit of somewhat characteristic touchiness here as well... )

OK, this is a forum so rigour in writing may not be thoroughly considered (as I sincerely hope it is when you give notes to your students), but for someone like Holly who has expressed some quite serious concerns about her course, when you tell her in essence that any failings are her own fault ( ...There's only one way to judge a course, and that's by it's graduates...), it comes across as defensive and unhelpful.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I think you're over thinking this.

Your problem is you're misunderstanding what I mean by "There's only one way to judge a course, and that's by it's graduates". I mean the work they produce. Tat doesn't infer any meaning as to whether the course is only as good as the students that are on it, not does it imply that the course makes them a good student... that's a chicken and egg scenario, and in truth, both may well be the case. That's not really my point though, and I think you know it.

What you're actually doing is pick apart every word I write for the sake of a pedantic argument. You're probably not even arguing through any real interest in the subject any more, you're arguing to win.

This is simple.

You want to know how great a course is... then go the graduate show.. look at the work, and speak to the students. If you can think of a better way to judge the worth of a course, I'd like to hear it... and in truth, the readers of this thread are probably only interested in hearing that too... not suffer another pedantic argument where every clause of every sentence is analysed in order to score points off one another.


[edit]

...and find out how many of the graduates are actually earning a living with their cameras.. as after all, why else spend three years in Uni? It's not to get a piece of paper, surely.

 

[jon ryan]

"There's only one way to judge a course, and that's by it's graduates"

That is a flat statement. And it's wrong. You have sort of accepted this, in a circumlocutory manner.

Being able to admit that you have made a mistake is a strength, not a weakness.

 

[jon ryan]

...and find out how many of the graduates are actually earning a living with their cameras.. as after all, why else spend three years in Uni? It's not to get a piece of paper, surely.

How?

 

[Gary Coyle]

Any particular reason you're being an arse, or is it just a genetic predisposition?

Touchy touchy David, who run over your cat this morning, the obvious inclusion of smilies went over your head then. :bonk:

 

[Phil V]

"There's only one way to judge a course, and that's by it's graduates"

That is a flat statement. And it's wrong. You have sort of accepted this, in a circumlocutory manner.

Being able to admit that you have made a mistake is a strength, not a weakness.

Is there a "word of the day" award?

If not there should be, and this is today's winner (a shoe in):1st:

I never even checked it was a real word:shrug:

 

[jon ryan]

Sorry if circumlocutory seems a bit sesquipedalian, Phil.

 

[Phil V]

Sorry if circumlocutory seems a bit sesquipedalian, Phil.

Genuinely made me do that.

 

[robhooley167]

Speaking as a student (not in photography but this still applies). If there is a fairly important concept to your degree, if it's not covered in lectures or you miss that lecture(s), you go and research it yourself. Not being taught it is not an excuse for you not knowing it.
Your lecturers had office hours yes? Why didn't you go and ask them about this, even if they weren't in a position to teach you it then and there, they could have pointed you in the direction of some reference material. There are people ready to bash the lecturers but if they don't know that you don't know or understand something, how can they help you out?

I apologise if this sounds overly harsh.

 

[Pookeyhead]

That is a flat statement. And it's wrong.

And you're qualified to make that statement because?

You keep telling me I'm wrong, yet keep failing to suggest an alternative solution.

How?

By asking the college or uni (they'll have data). By speaking to graduates and students at the institution itself... trust me, they'll give you a very real picture of how things are. There's lots of data on sites such as Unistats. The best acid test in my opinion is the work the graduates produce, and speaking to them in person, which I regularly do when I do my yearly tour of graduate shows around the country. You'd be amazed what a 15 minute conversation can with a recent graduate can unearth.

I'm not exactly sure what you would suggest as a more suitable way of benchmarking a uni course.... as you've yet to volunteer an alternative, despite insisting that I'm wrong.

Being able to admit that you have made a mistake is a strength, not a weakness.

I haven't made one.

If you wish to demonstrate that I have, you'll have to do more than just disagree with me. You could.. you know.... offer an alternative suggestion, like I've been asking you to do.

I apologise if this sounds overly harsh.

It doesn't sound harsh. That's a fairly accurate assessment of higher education.

 

[jon ryan]

You keep telling me I'm wrong, yet keep failing to suggest an alternative solution.

I have done so. Twice.

1st time here:

Well, I think that the standard and ability of graduates largely reflects the standard and ability of the lecturers, and all reflect the design of the course. To say, as you do here, that the only way to judge a course is by its graduates strikes me as extremely blinkered.

Repeated here:

To answer your question, I repeat what I have previously said: a course can only be judged good if all its elements are properly considered and executed. It is a joint thing, depending on the course structure, the quality of those who deliver it, and their ability to bring the best from the students. The quality of the resultant work is a reflection of this, along with the ability of the student.

If you cannot see anything wrong in stating that
"There's only one way to judge a course, and that's by it's graduates", then there is no point in continuing with this.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't Unistats only show salary six months after graduation? (~£16,000 for photography grads). And isn't this garnered from a voluntary submission from students, with no follow up or info about field of work? Nothing for x years down the line? And some frighteningly poor figures for course satisfaction from some intitutions (just 56/57% for Central Lancs & Bournmouth Uni, though Bournmouth Art Uni get an excellent 97%. Wonder how that happens?)

Perhaps you could publish the number of grads from your institution, approximate salaries, and what percentage are making their living from photography after, say, five years?

 

[dod]

How do you decide whether or not a photography student passes their degree?

 

[ernesto]

While clearly there is more than one way to judge a course I do think that measuring the success of the course (the teaching, the materials, the design etc,.) is best done by judging the graduates coming out of the course.

 

[Pookeyhead]

"Well, I think that the standard and ability of graduates largely reflects the standard and ability of the lecturers, and all reflect the design of the course."

But, in effect, that's agreeing with me. The only contentious issue here is how we judge the standard and ability of the graduates. I maintain that you judge the graduates by the work they produce... after all, the best test for most things is the end product of the endeavour itself.. anything else is meaningless.

If I wanted to judge whether the elements that led to the production of my toaster were properly considered and executed, I'd decide by judging how well it made toast. What other benchmark should I be considering?


If the graduates produce outstanding work, consistently, then that course is probably working well, as I'm sure you must agree... the whole point is to produce outstanding photographers.

I can't think of a better way to judge a photographer than by the work they produce.. can you?

"To answer your question, I repeat what I have previously said: a course can only be judged good if all its elements are properly considered and executed. It is a joint thing, depending on the course structure, the quality of those who deliver it, and their ability to bring the best from the students. The quality of the resultant work is a reflection of this, along with the ability of the student."


And as I asked you in response to that... how does one exactly determine if all the elements are properly considered and executed? Again... I suggest the outcomes would be a good place to be looking. The curriculum is actually steered by industry representatives as much as it is ourselves.... and in our case, "we" are also time served or practising professionals.

How do you decide whether or not a photography student passes their degree?

I decide (along with my colleagues... no one person is responsible for this process) by whether the students have met the learning outcomes for each module, and the grading criteria that are set by the awarding university. In our case these criteria are guided by the QAA benchmark statements, and by extensive liaison with professional bodies, namely the AoP, BIPP and sometimes representatives from the BJP. We have regular forums and steering groups where academic staff (not just from our institution either) regularly meet to decide if the curriculum meets the requirements sought by industry.

These grades are then subjected to extreme scrutiny subject boards, where external examiners go through the work that's already been graded twice, and moderated with an eye on the actual grading process. These external examiners are also working with subject specialists, so they have context within which to work. There's then a final procedure called the awarding body senate hearing, where any grades that are borderline cases, or still have questions are further scrutinised.

It's a fairly robust procedure... we don't just look at the photos and go.. "hmmmm...... looks like a B+"

 

[jon ryan]

While clearly there is more than one way to judge a course I do think that measuring the success of the course (the teaching, the materials, the design etc,.) is best done by judging the graduates coming out of the course.

Nope. There's only one way to judge a course, and that's by it's graduates.


Apparently.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Yes.. because if all of the above are not in place... and the facilities are poor, and the staff are crap, then that will inevitably be reflected in the outcomes... the work, and the graduates.

You can't run a course with crap facilities, and crap teaching staff and expect the outcomes to be as good as an institution that has incredibly experienced staff, superb facilities and strong links to industry. It just won't happen. The end result... i.e, the work, and the graduates themselves will be poorer as a result.

The best courses and Unis produce the best graduates and the best work. The crap ones invariably do not.

 

[tiler65]

Yes.. because if all of the above are not in place... and the facilities are poor, and the staff are crap, then that will inevitably be reflected in the outcomes... the work, and the graduates.

You can't run a course with crap facilities, and crap teaching staff and expect the outcomes to be as good as an institution that has incredibly experienced staff, superb facilities and strong links to industry. It just won't happen. The end result... i.e, the work, and the graduates themselves will be poorer as a result.

The best courses and Unis produce the best graduates and the best work. The crap ones invariably do not.

Would you mind posting your prospectus? I am intrigued as to what a student might find attractive in studying for a photography degree.

 

[jon ryan]

Yes.. because if all of the above are not in place... and the facilities are poor, and the staff are crap, then that will inevitably be reflected in the outcomes... the work, and the graduates.

You can't run a course with crap facilities, and crap teaching staff and expect the outcomes to be as good as an institution that has incredibly experienced staff, superb facilities and strong links to industry. It just won't happen. The end result... i.e, the work, and the graduates themselves will be poorer as a result.

The best courses and Unis produce the best graduates and the best work. The crap ones invariably do not.

Which I what I've been saying. Higher education providers articulate and implement a strategic approach to learning and teaching and promote a shared understanding of this approach
among their staff, students and other stakeholders.

That is, you cannot judge a course by the graduates alone.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Which I what I've been saying. Higher education providers articulate and implement a strategic approach to learning and teaching and promote a shared understanding of this approach
among their staff, students and other stakeholders.

That is, you cannot judge a course by the graduates alone.

I'm sorry, but you can. I've seen it time and time again. So many times we've looked at work from other places and thought, "Something's going wrong with xxxxxx". We didn't know for sure, but the outputs suggested it, and every damned time, sure enough, it transpires that xxxxx have lowered entry requirements, or someone who drove the course well has left, or some other reason that was clearly evident in the quality of the work being produced. We knew months or even years before anything definite in the way of news headed our way, and we knew because the work declined. Something affected the quality of the output. The work told the story; The work IS an accurate barometer for the course in general.

As you suggest, I'm not saying the students are the be all and end all. Lots of things have to be right in order for a course to work well, but as an outsider, or prospective student not privy to that information, and trying to make a choice, just look at the work being produced. If its crap, then I'd not be paying £8k to study there. Simple as that... and you know what? Neither would you. If the work looks good, then by all means go in person to look closer, but you CAN filter out the crap from the good by using the work as a benchmark. If you don't believe me, try it. Find somewhere with crap work in a graduate show, then go along and have a look. I guarantee you'll be less than impressed with the facilities, staff, and students.

Would you mind posting your prospectus? I am intrigued as to what a student might find attractive in studying for a photography degree.

Absolutely not a chance in hell. There are just too many people who have been outwardly vindictive for me to trust that information with them and not try to stir up trouble by an anonymous e-mail about the "behaviour" of an employee: Many on here simply cannot accept the fact that when I'm on here, I'm on here as me; an individual photographer, not as a lecturer or ambassador for my establishment. How many times have some people in this forum made comments about my behaviour "as a uni lecturer"?

I am not at work. Respect that. I enjoy being able to discuss matters in a way I simply can not do at work. I enjoy discussing matters that would be impolitic to discuss (openly) at work. Respect that as well please.

I'd like to speak freely about all matters effecting photography and how it is taught if I please, and I've been outspoken about educational policy, student demeanour and declining standards in further education (also part of our provision) and how it is not preparing students for HE as well as it might. I've also been pretty vocal about other institutions... sometimes naming them if I feel strongly that they're damaging the reputation of Photography in H.E . It would simply be imprudent for me to effectively say "I work here" in this forum. I've said as many negative things about where I work as I have positive, as I feel it's my democratic right to do so.... certain "corporate" staff may not agree though.

If anyone on here I trust, who I correspond with via PM cares to know, I will happily tell them however.

To be honest though, you can no more tell the quality of a course from a prospectus than you can tell if a film is good or not from it's trailer.


...at risk of sounding like a stuck record... look at the work produced if you want an insight into a course... If you like what you see, then follow that with a visit in person on an open day (pretty much all institutions have them regularly and advertise them on their websites).. actually take a look for yourself. Talk to the staff in person. Talk to the students in person. Look at the facilities. I guarantee you the ones that produce strong work will have great facilities, staff and highly vocal and engaged students. Also, get a professional opinion - talk to the industry via the AoP, or BIPP.. they'll not hesitate to let you know who has the best reputations for producing solid industry prepared graduates.. and it will be utterly impartial advice, whereas anything I tell you will always be tinged with suspicion, as I could be seen to be anything but impartial. BTW though... the industry too will be judging the colleges by their graduates. They must be wrong as well I suppose

 

[jon ryan]

OK. A good reply, David. We won't agree, so shall we leave it there?

 

[DemiLion]

In that case, if you want to remain anonymous, you shouldn't leave such a working great trail of breadcrumbs across the Internet.

You can be tracked down in only two google searches. That's about as easy as it gets!

 

[Pookeyhead]

OK. A good reply, David. We won't agree, so shall we leave it there?

Fair enough squire

In that case, if you want to remain anonymous, you shouldn't leave such a working great trail of breadcrumbs across the Internet.

You can be tracked down in only two google searches. That's about as easy as it gets!

If someone is obsessed enough, or embittered enough to stir up a hornets nest, then sure.. go for it. I'm not handing it out on a plate though. I'm not stupid enough to think anyone determined enough could find it out for themselves... which they are obviously welcome to do if they want. If anyone is genuinely interested, they can PM me to ask.

So now you know.... feel free to make enquiries about how the industry regard our establishment.

 

[DemiLion]

Fair enough squire

If someone is obsessed enough, or embittered enough to stir up a hornets nest, then sure.. go for it. I'm not handing it out on a plate though. I'm not stupid enough to think anyone determined enough could find it out for themselves... which they are obviously welcome to do if they want. If anyone is genuinely interested, they can PM me to ask.

So now you know.... feel free to make enquiries about how the industry regard our establishment.

I've known for ages, but I repect your right to reveal who you are if, or when, you want to.

I'm just pointing out that for someone who is bleating about how valuable their anonymity is, you haven't exactly made stringent efforts to protect it!

 

[tiler65]

David, I don't need you to name the Uni or college - I would just like to see the outset/bullet point curriculum, if possible.

Ps, And my intentions are not to cause trouble but to understand why a student would try for such a degree.

 

[jon ryan]

I've known for ages, but I repect your right to reveal who you are if, or when, you want to.

Ditto. Probably something to do with being in journalism. I like to know who I'm dealing with.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I'm just pointing out that for someone who is bleating about how valuable their anonymity is, you haven't exactly made stringent efforts to protect it!

That's because I can't.. not without expending a great deal of energy and effort I frankly can't be arsed with If a bunch of geeks on 4Chan tracked down the woman who put a cat in a wheelie bin based on nothing but some CCTV footage, I've got no chance I'm still not going volunteer the info though.

David, I don't need you to name the Uni or college - I would just like to see the outset/bullet point curriculum, if possible.

Ps, And my intentions are not to cause trouble but to understand why a student would try for such a degree.

A bit tricky... it's quite huge as it's not a single prospectus for just photography... it's a whole school prospectus. Rather than you try and find out, I've PMed you a link. If you did try and find out, you'd end up getting wrong thing anyway, as the school itself is a wholly separate entity within the larger organisation.. with it's own remit, identity and branding. Like I said... as you can't judge a film by its trailer... you can't judge one course from a college prospectus. If you know where I am.. feel free to come and have a look around. I'll be more than happy to oblige.

The reasons students apply are various. Some apply because they feel the industry needs a degree (which it doesn't actually). Some apply because they genuinely want to learn and have a passion for photography and becoming the best they can be (those are the ones we snap up). Some apply thinking it's a highly instructional course and and have ambitions towards more commercially oriented work such as weddings or social portraiture (These we advise to look for an HND or more vocational course... not because we feel such work is "beneath us" either before anyone levels that at us... we value all photography.. but merely because you do not need a Hons degree to do that). Despite this, some of latter still get on the course, as they also have an academic interest as well. One of our best level 6 students at the moment is doing Boudoir and social portraiture. We just expect our students to produce bloody good work.. no matter what it is.

 

[dod]

I decide (along with my colleagues... no one person is responsible for this process) by whether the students have met the learning outcomes for each module, and the grading criteria that are set by the awarding university. In our case these criteria are guided by the QAA benchmark statements, and by extensive liaison with professional bodies, namely the AoP, BIPP and sometimes representatives from the BJP. We have regular forums and steering groups where academic staff (not just from our institution either) regularly meet to decide if the curriculum meets the requirements sought by industry.

These grades are then subjected to extreme scrutiny subject boards, where external examiners go through the work that's already been graded twice, and moderated with an eye on the actual grading process. These external examiners are also working with subject specialists, so they have context within which to work. There's then a final procedure called the awarding body senate hearing, where any grades that are borderline cases, or still have questions are further scrutinised.

It's a fairly robust procedure... we don't just look at the photos and go.. "hmmmm...... looks like a B+"

Ta. So is that looking at mainly at the technical side of things or is there an "artistic"/subjective element as well?

I'm not trying to catch you out, I am actually genuinely interested

 

[jon ryan]

These may help:

QAA subject benchmarks

Excellent article from a couple of years ago by Neil Turner, a tutor on the UpToSpeed photojournalism course at The Bournemouth Daily Echo. Neil is Vice-Chairman of the British Press Photographers’ Association, and was a staff photographer on the Times Educational Supplement and Times Higher Education Supplement for over fourteen years. He has worked with and taught on several degree courses. (This info is from the date of the original article and may have changed)

Institutions seem very reluctant to say anything about where their photography graduates are employed and, if they are employed, in which field they are working.

 

[Words]

These may help:

Institutions seem very reluctant to say anything about where their photography graduates are employed and, if they are employed, in which field they are working.

Not easy to get the information once the students have left. There's an annual survey (Destinations of Leavers from Higher Education DLHE) which every course in the country takes part in. The summary results for University College Suffolk/Photography are here:

The data is very patchy though, as many ex-students don't respond, have moved away, are travelling (it's done 6 months are graduating). The better test would be what people are doing 5-10 years later, but getting accurate information on that is very tricky indeed.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Ta. So is that looking at mainly at the technical side of things or is there an "artistic"/subjective element as well?

I'm not trying to catch you out, I am actually genuinely interested

It's both actually. They need to have developed the images technically, by discovering problems through critique sessions, reflection and analysis, and then through research, solve problems and reshoot. Anyone who just shoots one version of an image and doesn't develop the images further to improve rarely gets a higher grade, and often will get a low grade.

They need to have demonstrated good creative processes, so basically, ideas are developed through research, crit and reshoot. They need to be professional to a standard expected in industry, including delivering to deadlines, maintaining standards in presentation and being able to source anything they need to bring agreed ideas to fruition in a self-motivated, self starting way... just as expected if it was a live brief.

Printing must be to a high professional standard, as must retouching. We always expect students to print and part of the course is being able to use the high end output equipment and have images accurately colour balanced and profiled for output.

They need to have developed a good rationale for their work in their log books... no one, ever gets away with just taking a photo... everything has to be considered, and everything is usually project based. Anyone with good technical skill and resources can shoot to order commercially, but developing an idea for a project is what makes people think creatively. Being a Hons. programme, this is important.

Basically... it's a balance of everything. People assume that you can take any old blurred nonsense and pass it off as art because it's a degree course.. but you can't... because we expect a great deal of research prior to shooting and agreeing the initial idea... so if blurred was what you wanted, you'd have to have had a rationale agreed weeks before stating that... and it would have had to have been bloody good to justify that.

All those criteria have to be met. You can do very poorly in one, and still pass that particular module, but the final year modules also carry a much higher credit weighting so if you score low in level 6, you run a real risk of failing or getting a pass degree, or a third... which is effectively worthless.

This is why I say it's highly unlikely that a student who didn't understand the effects of shutter speed would get a 2:1 from us. They would have to be utterly exceptional academically... so good, that in reality, they're probably heading for post grad study and academia rather than a photography studio anyway.

I can't vouch for other institutions doing the same... and now you all know where I work, I best be on my best diplomatic behaviour

These may help:

QAA subject benchmarks

Jon.. QAA benchmarks are not strict requirements, and they do not set the grading criteria, or learning outcomes in stone. These are set by the awarding body, and us. The QAA guidelines are so vague, that you can have two courses both meeting the benchmark statements but be utterly different in outcomes. Don't get too caught up with QAA. We could change any of our learning outcomes and still be within QAA guidelines... we do it all the time. As the article you linked to suggests... in order to remain current, we are constantly making changes. The course we teach next year will be different from this year. Over the summer... when most people think us teachers lounge around for 6 weeks... we're re-writing the course to keep it current.



Also.. you linked to the wrong benchmarks

These are the ones we (loosely) adhere to.

http://www.qaa.ac.uk/Publications/I...ct-benchmark-statement---Art-and-design-.aspx

...Art & Design is so broad as to render the benchmarks almost useless in reality.

 

[jon ryan]

Also.. you linked to the wrong benchmarks

I did? Gosh! Sorry 'bout that. Can you post a link to the correct QAA benchmarks please? And perhaps some info on where your last five years of photography graduates are now working?

Also, what are your thoughts on Neil's article?

 

[Pookeyhead]

I did? Gosh! Sorry 'bout that. Can you post a link to the correct QAA benchmarks please? And perhaps some info on where your last five years of photography graduates are now working?

Also, what are your thoughts on Neil's article?

You may want to re-read my post, I think I may have been editing it as you were posting. I included a link to the correct benchmark statement.

I agree with a lot of what that article is saying actually. A lot of it is true, and unfortunately, a great many courses are taught by mainly academic staff that have little or no industry relevance. We, and in all fairness, many other courses pride themselves on strong industry links, and boast staff that are also working professionals. We literally do re-write large portions of the course all the time... this year's course will be different from next years as a result of feedback from industry, and also technology itself.

One thing I can't agree with though is the credence given to Skillset... who are as useful as a chocolate teapot.

Stats on graduation success are variable, short term - meaning 12 months from graduation, but around 20% approx end up working in photography or a directly related field.. being an academic course, that includes curators, agents and image publishing. Long term, that figure climbs slightly, as you'll understand, it takes time to make your mark. It sounds low, but it's much higher than most, and in light of the fact that there is no real industry, or employers to speak of, that's actually quite high. Long term figures are difficult to gather and collate though, as it relies on continued contact through our alumni network. There are many graduates that we don't hear from again, so it's difficult to tell how relevant their long term employment is to their degree. Many assist part time for a while after graduation, and often work cash in hand and they are hard to reconcile with accurate figures also.

In short, it's tough out there... and making it relies on strong self led entrepreneurial skills... we address this... but.... this relies on strong personalities than have great people skills.. and that's something you can only partly teach. Some people are just shy little wall flowers, and there's little we can do about that.

Where they work? Well. they work for themselves... there are no real sources of employment in photography. The massive majority assist, then become freelance.. like most photographers.


[edit] If you're interested I can get more specific data from work... it's not something I have here at home.



[edit of edit]

They are teh correct QAA docs, but not the most current.. 2010 is the most current but can't find a link for it. Not much has changed to be honest... QAA are a great lumbering beast that are largely ineffectual. Again, I can get a copy from work and post it up if you're interested.

Sorry for all this editing... I'm not firing on all 8 today.. had some major dental work done and I feel decidedly under par