Auto focus settings for outdoor 'lively' portrait shoot

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

My focussing was all over the place the other day photographing a group of 4 people outdoors. :thumbsdown:

They were jumping and moving their bodies around quickly where they were standing. Most of the action photos were either semi blurry or the focussing was out. I believe this was down to user error though and not the camera!

I set the camera to F8, 1/250, ISO 400.
Focus settings - AF-C and I spot focused on faces

I used a 55-200mm and was standing about 5 meters away from them.

How do you set your camera when you have an active (people free to move quickly/jumping around) shoot?

Just to add this was a practicing thing.

 

[DemiLion]

Seriously? You charge people for your photography and you're asking a question like that?


Have a clue: shutter speed.

 

[On the Huh]

Hi Holly, take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8NEa-ghHbo

Plenty more stuff by BP on youtube/adorama tv on same subject.

Good point by Mark! Not telling you what to do, but you can upset a few pros if you are advertising charging for photography when you are still in the realms of learning basics, like exposure.

I live in the Switch, maybe a local meet with a few others from the forum one day?
Be suprised what can be learnt from one another.

You keep shootin'.

 

[jon ryan]

Hi Holly, take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8NEa-ghHbo

Plenty more stuff by BP on youtube/adorama tv on same subject.

Good point by Mark! Not telling you what to do, but you can upset a few pros if you are advertising charging for photography when you are still in the realms of learning basics, like exposure.

I live in the Switch, maybe a local meet with a few others from the forum one day?
Be suprised what can be learnt from one another.

You keep shootin'.

Umm, according to her site, Holly has a BA in photography.

 

[Oscellaris]

Umm, according to her site, Holly has a BA in photography.

That's a concern.

 

[Deleted member 34016]

Umm, according to her site, Holly has a BA in photography.

Me too and I know how to work my camera

Les

 

[On the Huh]

If people are running towards you 1/250 can work. If people are moving up and down, e.g trampolening/skiping or moving L tp R (or vice versa) then between 1/500 to 1/1000 should be adequate. Don.t be afraid to machine gun it

 

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

It was a practice shoot, it wasn't paid, just for fun. Although I do offer paid services this is for aspects of photography I have experience in. I wouldn't do any paid portrait stuff unless I felt I was 100% able to do it properly. I don't want to offend anyone on here.

If people are running towards you 1/250 can work. If people are moving up and down, e.g trampolening/skiping or moving L tp R (or vice versa) then between 1/500 to 1/1000 should be adequate. Don.t be afraid to machine gun it

At the time i thought 1/250 would work ok but now looking back I can see where I went wrong with the shutter speed. Also I set the camera to aperture priority instead of manual or shutter priority.

Oh well as they say learn from your mistakes.

 

[DemiLion]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

It was a practice shoot, it wasn't paid, just for fun. Although I do offer paid services this is for aspects of photography I have experience in. I wouldn't do any paid portrait stuff unless I felt I was 100% able to do it properly. I don't want to offend anyone on here.

I think that you're missing the point, Holly. Basics like exposure should be second nature, especially after getting a 2:1 in photography. You are advertising yourself online as a professional photographer and using your degree to bolster the impression that you know what you're
doing.

I'm guessing that at 1/250, f/8 ISO400 you were using light. Didn't your course at college cover that?

Two other points, both of which are negative, but designed to help you.....

Currently your composition is tonk. Almost all of your images are centred as I suspect that you are using centre point focus. Start using the alternative points or, if that's not possible, look for composition in your cropping, preferably using thirds. Look through your portfolio images and you'll see what I mean. It's composition 101 and it should have been hammered in on your course.

Lastly, if your work is good enough to publish, it's good enough to be paid for. Giving your stuff away to magazines for access is a mugs game- unless you can syndicate the work elsewhere. Working for gratis devalues you and ( more importantly) it devalues the profession.

If you really want to learn for free, then contact the Chief Photographer at the EADT and beg him for some work experience. You'll learn more in one week with one of their staffers than you will in a year by yourself.

 

[Cobra]

Come on Guys, play nice,
This is a "basic section" after all.

You cant learn everything from a college / Uni course.
Its once you get out in the real world that real learning begins, as I am sure
many of you know.

Thanks

 

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

I think that you're missing the point, Holly. Basics like exposure should be second nature, especially after getting a 2:1 in photography. You are advertising yourself online as a professional photographer and using your degree to bolster the impression that you know what you're
doing.

I'm guessing that at 1/250, f/8 ISO400 you were using light. Didn't your course at college cover that?

Two other points, both of which are negative, but designed to help you.....

Currently your composition is tonk. Almost all of your images are centred as I suspect that you are using centre point focus. Start using the alternative points or, if that's not possible, look for composition in your cropping, preferably using thirds. Look through your portfolio images and you'll see what I mean. It's composition 101 and it should have been hammered in on your course.

Lastly, if your work is good enough to publish, it's good enough to be paid for. Giving your stuff away to magazines for access is a mugs game- unless you can syndicate the work elsewhere. Working for gratis devalues you and ( more importantly) it devalues the profession.

If you really want to learn for free, then contact the Chief Photographer at the EADT and beg him for some work experience. You'll learn more in one week with one of their staffers than you will in a year by yourself.

The course didn't really teach anything about composition, exposure etc. Was more arty and theory based rather than actual teaching. I would/should have done a college based course where they teach you more, but at the time I recieved the wrong advice.

I see what you mean about my composition. To be honest I never really have made full use out of the alternative focus points. Will take your points on board thank you.

 

[jon ryan]

Come on Guys, play nice,
This is a "basic section" after all.

You cant learn everything from a college / Uni course.
Its once you get out in the real world that real learning begins, as I am sure
many of you know.

Thanks

But a course that allows anyone to graduate with a BA (Hons) in photography while apparently lacking some of the most fundamental requirements needed by anyone hoping to make a living as a photographer has let the graduate down. Badly. Holly, I'm not having a go at you here, but I would certainly want to have a talk to the external auditors of the course and take a close look at the QAA benchmarks.

Edit to add: Link to course outline

 

[Cobra]

But a course that allows anyone to graduate with a BA (Hons) in photography while apparently lacking some of the most fundamental requirements needed by anyone hoping to make a living as a photographer has let the graduate down. Badly. Holly, I'm not having a go at you here, but I would certainly want to have a talk to the external auditors of the course and take a close look at the QAA benchmarks.

I can't argue with that, but its seems to be all to commons these days
(whatever the subject)

 

[Pookeyhead]

Yeah blame the course....

 

[jon ryan]

Yeah blame the course....

Well, it doesn't look to me, based on not much evidence to be sure, as if the course has been particularly thorough in ensuring that all graduates are equipped with the fundamental skills that the photographic industry would expect to see from job applicants. Personal opinion of course.

 

[DemiLion]

Come on Guys, play nice,
This is a "basic section" after all.

You cant learn everything from a college / Uni course.
Its once you get out in the real world that real learning begins, as I am sure
many of you know.

Thanks

I am being nice & fluffy Chris, especially now Holly's outlined the lack of proper direction that she's had.

Without being patronising, I feel very sorry for any student that takes a degree and the course material leaves them wholly unprepared for the actual job of taking photographs!

Yeah blame the course....

... and why not? There are constant complaints in the real photographic world about the inadequacy of preparation that a large number of students receive ( or rather don't ). You can't speak foe every academic institution!

 

[Pookeyhead]

You can't speak foe every academic institution!

Nor can you. We have no idea where she studied, and therefore have no idea if the course was poor, or she was a poor student. The sensible thing to do is refrain from guessing which it is. Either way, despite what the cause is... she SHOULD know this after studying a degree.

There is a tendency to automatically put blame on the institution I find.

 

[Cobra]

I am being nice & fluffy Chris, especially now Holly's outlined the lack of proper direction that she's had.

T'wasn't aimed specifically at anyone Mark
I could just see the path this was taking

And thanks for your input as always

 

[DemiLion]

We have no idea where she studied, and therefore have no idea if the course was poor, or she was a poor student.

Who's we Kemosabe?

I know where Holly studied and what she was awarded.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Who's we Kemosabe?

I know where Holly studied and what she was awarded.

Good for you.. I don't, so I'd rather not accuse an entire course and team of academic staff because one person doesn't know how to use a camera. As for you knowing where she studied.. that doesn't mean you know whether the course is good or not.

The only definitive way to answer that would be to look at the quality of all the other graduates rather than judge a course by one graduate.

 

[jon ryan]

Good for you.. I don't, so I'd rather not accuse an entire course and team of academic staff because one person doesn't know how to use a camera. As for you knowing where she studied.. that doesn't mean you know whether the course is good or not.

The only definitive way to answer that would be to look at the quality of all the other graduates rather than judge a course by one graduate.

I posted a link to the course outline above. Holly says where she studied, and the award, on her site.

The question remains, though: Do the people running and auditing such courses have a responsibility to ensure that all graduates are equipped to compete for employment? Who is responsible if this doesn't happen?

 

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

Thank you to all for your input.

What I learnt on the course wasn't really about camera settings and good exposure. Having a degree doesn't mean I have all the answers, I have learnt lots from trial/error and TP forum about photography technique - more than I did on the course.

Usually I have no problems with dealing with the basics, there was just an aspect I was unsure of, as I was dipping my feet into something I hadn't done lots of before. For the shoot mentioned in the OP I thought the camera settings I chose would be sufficient enough to get the subjects in sharp focus with no blur.

Obviously I was wrong, and so just came here looking for a little advice and direction for when I attempt it again.

If I didn't ask I possibly would have made the same mistakes and have learnt nothing.

P.S. Regarding degree course I was a good student

 

[jon ryan]

Hi Holly,

Please do keep asking. We're mostly a helpful lot here. But, hafta say I find it very deeply worrying that three years of a photography course doesn't appear to have to have covered what is some pretty fundamental stuff. It's rather like bumping into a music graduate and discovering that learning how to tune your harp wasn't covered.

I have learnt lots from trial/error and TP forum about photography technique - more than I did on the course.

Yup. Worrying.

 

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

Hi Holly,

Please do keep asking. We're mostly a helpful lot here. But, hafta say I find it very deeply worrying that three years of a photography course doesn't appear to have to have covered what is some pretty fundamental stuff. It's rather like bumping into a music graduate and discovering that learning how to tune your harp wasn't covered.



Yup. Worrying.

I totally understand what your saying and it's frustrating for me as people assume that either I was a bad student or should have known everything already before joining the course. I'm not knocking the course because I did do some interesting projects through it, and theoretically it was good.

At the beginning in the interview after showing my portfolio and explaining my basic knowledge (I did not even have an slr camera just a point and shoot) I was told about all the technical teaching, which convinced me to join, but yet in the 3 years it rarely happened. I do wonder whether as a relatively new course they were just trying to get as many people to join as possible.

The only technical teaching was an introduction to darkroom, studio lights, and photoshop. But this would of been down to the nature of the course but if I had know this earlier on I would have chosen a different route to my learning.

But hey i've done it now and can only keep trying to improve on what I already know or don't know.

 

[gadgeteer]

It's not really Holly's fault. To pass at 2:1 she's obviously done all that's been asked of her on the course. I agree though that the course has really let her down badly.

 

[jon ryan]

Do you know if any other students/graduates share your impressions on this? It may be worth mentioning it to the college. Student feedback plays an important part of course formulation.

 

[jon ryan]

It's not really Holly's fault. To pass at 2:1 she's obviously done all that's been asked of her on the course. I agree though that the course has really let her down badly.

That's my impression as well.

 

[Words]

To get back to the original question (photographing moving people). Assuming this is outdoors/natural light then the principles that are pretty common in wildlife photography. The AF should be set to AI mode (Canon-speak), and then simply track the subject so that the focus automatically adjusts with the movement. It's easier if you set your camera up so that you can focus with the * back button so that the shutter trigger doesn't control focus (check your camera manual for how to set this up). I would tend to use AV rather than shutter priority but keep shutter speed to at least 1/320 for a mid-length lens by setting the ISO appropriately. Faster the better if you want 'sharp' images. If you want blur (and it can be great) you'll need to reduce the ISO and drag the shutter speed down to around 1/20.

 

[DemiLion]

To get back to the original question (photographing moving people). Assuming this is outdoors/natural light then the principles that are pretty common in wildlife photography. The AF should be set to AI mode (Canon-speak), and then simply track the subject so that the focus automatically adjusts with the movement. It's easier if you set your camera up so that you can focus with the * back button so that the shutter trigger doesn't control focus (check your camera manual for how to set this up). I would tend to use AV rather than shutter priority but keep shutter speed to at least 1/320 for a mid-length lens by setting the ISO appropriately. Faster the better if you want 'sharp' images. If you want blur (and it can be great) you'll need to reduce the ISO and drag the shutter speed down to around 1/20.

You missed out one vital consideration...

That exposure, and the fact that Holly was shooting a portrait, screams out that the shot was lit- which means that sync speed comes into consideration.

However she has responded to my suggestion in an earlier post yet!

 

[new2me]

Can I just ask, is the effort of focusing on faces worthwhile for this type of shot?

 

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

Do you know if any other students/graduates share your impressions on this? It may be worth mentioning it to the college. Student feedback plays an important part of course formulation.

Yes just as an example the other day I was chatting to a friend who I did the course/graduated with and she mentioned how bad it was that she got away with taking all her final major project photos on 'auto' mode. She now works at a portrait studio and said to me how embarrassing it was for her regarding how little she knew when she started working there. She even said she didn't really know what aperture did...

I filled out a feedback form when i graduated raising the issue but not sure if much has been changed.

To get back to the original question (photographing moving people). Assuming this is outdoors/natural light then the principles that are pretty common in wildlife photography. The AF should be set to AI mode (Canon-speak), and then simply track the subject so that the focus automatically adjusts with the movement. It's easier if you set your camera up so that you can focus with the * back button so that the shutter trigger doesn't control focus (check your camera manual for how to set this up). I would tend to use AV rather than shutter priority but keep shutter speed to at least 1/320 for a mid-length lens by setting the ISO appropriately. Faster the better if you want 'sharp' images. If you want blur (and it can be great) you'll need to reduce the ISO and drag the shutter speed down to around 1/20.

Thanks, If I had used a lower aperture I would of got higher shutter speeds which would of helped loads. I didn't really need such a large depth of field.

 

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

You missed out one vital consideration...

That exposure, and the fact that Holly was shooting a portrait, screams out that the shot was lit- which means that sync speed comes into consideration.

However she has responded to my suggestion in an earlier post yet!

I was outside the weather was overcast but bright, I did some shots with a flashgun, but the shots that were not very well focussed or blurry were taking without flash just natural light.

 

[Words]

You missed out one vital consideration...

That exposure, and the fact that Holly was shooting a portrait, screams out that the shot was lit- which means that sync speed comes into consideration.

However she has responded to my suggestion in an earlier post yet!

It was an outdoor shoot, hence the wildlife analogy. During the day I'd want to work with natural light, but then I don't photograph people very often. Animals are less likely to complain about the results In the past I've shot with a bit of fill flash at faster than 1/250 by overriding the standard synch speed. At night the flash will freeze any movement even on much lower speeds so 1/250 limit is not an issue.

Anyway, difficult to know what the set up was without more info.

 

[tiler65]

I am so glad that universities have started to charge 8 grand if this is the standard of a BA (Hons) degree!

 

[Words]

Holly, 'overcast but bright' is generally good light as it mutes the shadows, so conditions sound reasonable. The best outdoor times are just after dawn or just before dusk (when everything takes on a red hue), but the light doesn't sound like the issue. A faster shutter speed, and using a tracking mode for focusing would have helped a lot.

As for the college, hopefully they will have taken on board your comments. I would expect them to. If you wanted to pursue that side of things you should drop a line to the 'Academic Registrar' at the two validating universities involved (East Anglia and Essex).

 

[Pookeyhead]

I posted a link to the course outline above. Holly says where she studied, and the award, on her site.

The question remains, though: Do the people running and auditing such courses have a responsibility to ensure that all graduates are equipped to compete for employment? Who is responsible if this doesn't happen?

In short: Are they are obliged to ensure students are capable of coping with the course on entry? Yes. Are they obliged to check they are capable of being employed upon graduation? No... because that's impossible to ascertain upon entry to a three year course. Are they obliged to do everything possible in the three years to ensure they are equipped for industry upon graduation? Yes, or course.

They are obliged to ensure that the student upon graduation has had every available option and opportunity to learn what they will need to know, and had every facility available to them in order to allow that to happen, and to create a portfolio of work that reflects this.

Does every student achieve this level despite the above? Of course not. Is that the institutions fault? No.. of course not.

There's only one way to judge a course, and that's by it's graduates. How many of them are employed in photography or a related field.. and also by looking at the quality of it's graduate shows and talking to currently enrolled students. Judging a whole course by one student, whether that student be brilliant, or not.. is next to useless as a benchmark.

 

[jon ryan]

In short: Are they are obliged to ensure students are capable of coping with the course on entry? Yes. Are they obliged to check they are capable of being employed upon graduation? No... because that's impossible to ascertain upon entry to a three year course. Are they obliged to do everything possible in the three years to ensure they are equipped for industry upon graduation? Yes, or course.

They are obliged to ensure that the student upon graduation has had every available option and opportunity to learn what they will need to know, and had every facility available to them in order to allow that to happen, and to create a portfolio of work that reflects this.

Does every student achieve this level despite the above? Of course not. Is that the institutions fault? No.. of course not.

How many of them are employed in photography or a related field.. and also by looking at the quality of it's graduate shows and talking to currently enrolled students. Judging a whole course by one student, whether that student be brilliant, or not.. is next to useless as a benchmark.

You honestly believe that There's only one way to judge a course, and that's by it's graduates. Do you stand by that statement?

 

[Pookeyhead]

Isn't that logical? If the majority of graduates have a great portfolio, the course has a strong graduate show, and the alumni are well placed in industry, how is that not a measure of whether the course is doing what it's designed to do?

Can you suggest a better benchmark?

 

[jon ryan]

Well, I think that the standard and ability of graduates largely reflects the standard and ability of the lecturers, and all reflect the design of the course. To say, as you do here, that the only way to judge a course is by its graduates strikes me as extremely blinkered.

 

[gadgeteer]

I just looked at the course and I'm a bit about it.

I think much depends on the pre-requisites for the course. If a student is expected to understand the basics before they start this course then it's very poor that they can graduate (with a 2:1 no less) without any real understanding of shutter speed & aperture.

If there are no prerequisites (and there were not when I did my IT degree) then the course should start from the basics which I don't see from the course outline. I know when I did my degree I spent my first year bored whilst the lecturer's explained to others basics which I already knew.

Either way it's a poor course which in three years hasn't taught students the skills they need. I don't see anything referencing using Photoshop or even Lightroom. And I don't see the value of teaching darkroom anymore (if the aim is to prepare students for working life). It would be akin to teaching me how to code in BASIC. All very interesting but sweet FA use in the real world.