Atheism And Kids

neil_g said:
That works both ways.
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Of course, but the O/P says he is an atheist hence my weighting the response in that way.
Personally I believe that you should bring your children up in the way and according to the beliefs that you believe are right.
If the O/P believes he is right he should be prepared to prove it to them or allow them to have a balanced choice of alternative evidence in which to make their own decision.
In my own case my children were all brought up according to my and my wife's beliefs and they still hold those beliefs as do their older children.
 
Prove is the wrong word, unless a devout Christian parent is also prepared trot out their deity of choice.
Balance is the key, sure, but there is no proof on either side.
 
viv1969 said:
Prove is the wrong word, unless a devout Christian parent is also prepared trot out their deity of choice.
Balance is the key, sure, but there is no proof on either side.
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That's just your opinion, it isn't fact.
 
Talk of proof is missing the point IMO.

There is no proof in matters of faith, nor should there need to be. It is about faith, not proof.

It is not possible to prove that god does not exist, nor is it possible to prove that god does exist.

I don't need to prove anything to justify my atheism and I'm sure gramps doesn't need to prove his faith.

If either of us was to need or claim proof, then we would have a serious problem.

If, however, proof either way was to present itself, then the whole world would know it very quickly.
 
viv1969 said:
I could say the same so let's agree to disagree, shall we?
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You could, but having proved for myself I can say you are wrong ... nevertheless happy to disagree.
 
simon ess said:
Talk of proof is missing the point IMO.

There is no proof in matters of faith, nor should there need to be. It is about faith, not proof.

It is not possible to prove that god does not exist, nor is it possible to prove that god does exist.

I don't need to prove anything to justify my atheism and I'm sure gramps doesn't need to prove his faith.

If either of us was to need or claim proof, then we would have a serious problem.

If, however, proof either way was to present itself, then the whole world would know it very quickly.
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Faith must be based on proof or it is blind faith.
 
gramps said:
You could, but having proved for myself I can say you are wrong ... nevertheless happy to disagree.
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Oh dear. That's kinda where Christianity, and most faiths for that matter, tend to fall down. The point blank, blinkered, unwillingness to accept that there could be an alternative....however, if you did accept that there may be another way then I suppose you wouldn't be seen as a very good....erm....religious-dude.

So - carry on.
 
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danny_bhoy said:
Oh dear. That's kinda where Christianity, and most faiths for that matter, tend to fall down. The point blank, blinkered, unwillingness to accept that there could be an alternative....however, if you did accept that there may be another way then I suppose you wouldn't be seen as a very good....erm....religious-dude So - carry on.
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Does it fall down because of that?
If you believe that there could be an alternative wouldn't that make you a hypocrite for the belief you profess?

There is a difference in believing that there could be an alternative (I don't) and accepting that others view things differently and being tolerant of that fact (I do and I am).
 
gramps said:
There is a difference in believing that there could be an alternative (I don't) and accepting that others view things differently and being tolerant of that fact (I do and I am).
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Absolutely. But, unfortunately, the majority of people - of any and every religion - can't or aren't willing to make that distinction.
 
danny_bhoy said:
Gramps I can't resist the temptation any longer to ask what proof you have. If it's too personal then by all means say so.
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Danny the proof is personal based on an examination of the scriptures, e.g. prophecy fulfilled, getting to know the personality of God and reasoning on his work and purpose and the work or his Son Jesus.
It's personal in that no one can prove it for you, they can direct you to the source of proof but you have to take the time to investigate it personally with an open mind and heart ... it isn't going to come in a flash of light!
 
gramps said:
Danny the proof is personal based on an examination of the scriptures, e.g. prophecy fulfilled, getting to know the personality of God and reasoning on his work and purpose and the work or his Son Jesus.
It's personal in that no one can prove it for you, they can direct you to the source of proof but you have to take the time to investigate it personally with an open mind and heart ... it isn't going to come in a flash of light!
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Gramps you clearly know your stuff and I'm genuinely pleased that it seems to work for you. Sometimes I actually wish that I had some sort of religion as a lot of people seem to draw a great deal of comfort from it.

However, after taking everything into account, it's just not for me. As I said earlier though, it's good that you can be tolerant of that.
 
Sit down with him and watch the news, every time a war or terrorism story is on you can tell him that is what can happen if you take religion to seriously :whistle:
 
...or rather what happens if you leave aside what God actually commands and merely use it as an excuse for your actions.
 
gramps said:
Danny the proof is personal based on an examination of the scriptures, e.g. prophecy fulfilled, getting to know the personality of God and reasoning on his work and purpose and the work or his Son Jesus.
It's personal in that no one can prove it for you, they can direct you to the source of proof but you have to take the time to investigate it personally with an open mind and heart ... it isn't going to come in a flash of light!
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I'm with Danny in saying I'm happy for you and would not wish to criticise your faith.

I can point out, however, that what you describe is a journey towards a strongly held opinion. It is not and can not be proof. I'm quite surprised you feel it necessary to refer to it as proof.

You have your faith. You don't need to prove anything.
 
I live in a relatively rough town with only one non faith english speaking comprehensive school which is joint last in the wales performance stats. Its also single sex, which I do not agree with. I'm a atheist but I've sent my child to a faith school so he can get a better education. As others have said I use the some people believe this and others believe that approach. I've also talked about Islam, hinduisam, along with ancient egypian and native american believes. I've also told him its fine to question things adults tell them.
 
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simon ess said:
I'm with Danny in saying I'm happy for you and would not wish to criticise your faith.

I can point out, however, that what you describe is a journey towards a strongly held opinion. It is not and can not be proof. I'm quite surprised you feel it necessary to refer to it as proof.

You have your faith. You don't need to prove anything.
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Again, that is your view ... you are making assumptions about me and my faith.
Without proof, or as Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.", I would not have my faith. I do not have an 'opinion' I have an established faith based on the proof I have obtained ... it is 'opinions' that cause issues ... many people have 'opinions', hence the multitude of different religious beliefs pandering to those 'opinions', and indeed of non-belief.
 
It is my view. I'm making no assumptions. You might be, I don't know.

So I shall, Like viv 1969, agree to disagree with your views on the nature of proof.
 
rjbell said:
I live in a relatively rough town with only one non faith english speaking comprehensive school which is joint last in the wales stats. Its also single sex. I'm a atheist but I've sent my child to a faith school so he can get a better education. As others have said I use the some people believe this and others believe that approach. I've also talked about Islam, hinduisam, along with ancient egypian and native american believes. I've also told him its fine to question things adults tell them.
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That's interesting. No doubt at all that you have to provide the best education you can for your children but do you think that the messages you're giving your child at home are enough to counteract what's being drilled into then during the day at school?

Not that it matters whether or not they grow up believing in any god/religion but, as has been said, it's important for them not to be 'brainwashed' for want of a better term.
 
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danny_bhoy said:
It's something that I've feared coming for a while and it arrived during the school run on Friday.

First off, I'm an Atheist. Not saying that's right or wrong - if you believe in God, any God for that matter, then fill your boots. But it's not, and never has been, my bag.

I've got two kids and the eldest, who's five, came out of school on Friday talking about God and Jesus. Quite graphic stuff about Jesus being nailed to the cross and dying as it happens (didn't think they taught that kinda things in school any more but they must still be making reference to it.....either that or one of his classmates is a trainee priest).

It's come up in general conversation a few time over the weekend, as does most stuff he's done during the previous week so that's nothing unusual. My predicament is, do I just run with it and hope that he finds his own way as he gets older, or do I do I tell him what I believe to be the truth. When I've practised the 'truth' version over a few times in my head it does just seem kinda harsh but by agreeing with him I'm feeling like a bit of a hypocrite.

Wow - that a lot to digest for a Sunday afternoon eh! :)

Interesting to know which way people would go with this.
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roll with it ... the best way tomake little aetheists is for schools to ram religious instruction down their throats (ergo the best wat to make little christians is to try and force him to be aetheist so I'd just let him make his own mind up .. when he's a bit older you might want to expose him to the various other faiths and their stories so that he can see which bits christiantiy borrowed , which should create doubts)

( in celtic mythology for example the god Bel (who incidetally had an enormous penis) came down to earth and had a child named Beli Mawr with a human woman. The Celtic kings were then alledgedly decended from Beli Mawr)

oh by the way historically speaking Jesus probably did exist, and he probably was crucified.... of course whether he really was the son of god, and whether he really rose again (Or if that was propganda made up by his followers ) is a matter of personal belief
 
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I wouldn't worry about it. As kids they are told who they have to believe in. Santa, the tooth fairy etc, telling them then who not to believe in is just going to confuse them imo. They will make their own minds up when they are old enough to think for themselves.
 
danny_bhoy said:
I bloody love Jim Jeffries! :)

Not to turn this into a link-fest but this has to be the daddy. The King of Atheism:

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That would of been my next link ;)

But for a high brow view Stephen Fry has done some excellent videos, "big think" is a great YT channel.
 
danny_bhoy said:
That's interesting. No doubt at all that you have to provide the best education you can for your children but do you think that the messages you're giving your child at home are enough to counteract what's being drilled into then during the day at school?

Not that it matters whether or not they grow up believing in any god/religion but, as has been said, it's important for them not to be 'brainwashed' for want of a better term.
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I'd be lieing if I said I wasn't concerned. The lesser of two evils.
 
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Brought up a catholic.. well I say brought up.. i was a catholic until my brain kicked in ... I honestly cant see how any educated person can believe in any god...

however being an athiest isnt nice.. its not good...i wish i had a god.. but I havent.. just the cold harsh reality that this is it....

I would prefer my children to believe in god for as long as they possibly can... the schools take care of that thank goodness (hands up if you thought i was going to say thank god)
 
KIPAX said:
Brought up a catholic.. well I say brought up.. i was a catholic until my brain kicked in ...
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Same here.
Still had seven years of catholic rhetoric to endure after that though :lol:
 
Whats the difference between a believer and an Atheist?
NOTHING! They both speak with certainty about sheeite that neither of them can prove ;)
 
Religion equals hypocrisy.

Priest lecturing the parish on family values when he knows nothing about them apart from when he was a child.

Muslims preaching hate when their own leaders are disagreeing with their views.

Religion is man's single biggest excuse for doing bad things.
 
Atheist are not concerned with disproving a God. Maybe this will help.

Belief: 1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in a person or thing; faith. 2. Mental acceptance or conviction in the truth or actuality of something. 3. Something believed or accepted as true; especially, a particular tenet, or a body of tenets, accepted by a group of persons.

Believe: 1 To accept as true or real. 2. To credit with veracity; have confidence in; trust.

Atheism is neither of those things. We don't have the belief there are no Gods, we also don't be Believe there are no Gods.

Atheism is simply, the rejection of belief in deities. Its really not that hard to understand.
 
Essentially, yes.

I'm slightly bothered by the use of "we." Atheism is a broad church, after all.;)
 
I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a young chap I knew who was about enter a Buddhist monastery to become a trainee monk.

I asked him if he believed in god.

He said he didn't bother concerning himself with such unnecessary distractions.
 
gramps said:
Faith must be based on proof or it is blind faith.
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ah but proof denys faith and without faith I am nothing

ahh says man but the babel fish proves you exist, therefore you don't

good point says god, I hadnt thought of that and disapears in a puff of logic

man goes on to prove black is white and gets killed on a zebra crossing

[/douglas adams]
 
danny_bhoy said:
I've got two kids and the eldest, who's five, came out of school on Friday talking about God and Jesus. Quite graphic stuff about Jesus being nailed to the cross and dying as it happens (didn't think they taught that kinda things in school any more but they must still be making reference to it.....either that or one of his classmates is a trainee priest).
.
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If my kid came back from school with a "Jesus is real" attitude I would definitely wonder where he was getting that from. Don't get me wrong - while I am a fairly militant atheist/agnostic I genuinely believe religious education is extremely important. But I do object to in-doctoring kids in school - I don't believe that is the schools job.

Past that though - I would simply explain (like many have here) that people hold different opinions, and given time im sure he will make his mind up about how he feels. I certainly wouldn't force my opinion on him, but if asked I would of course he honest.

And wait till hes a little older and dump some Christopher Hitchens in his lap. See how that goes :p
 
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simon ess said:
He said he didn't bother concerning himself with such unnecessary distractions.
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Now that's an outlook that I can go along with :)
The way I look at it is that we'll all find out for sure, one way or the other, one day.
Personally, I'm not in any rush for that day to come . . . and in the meantime I choose not to waste my time wondering about things that I'll never get a satisfactory answer to - and that I couldn't change even if I did.

I'm happy to enjoy the life I have now and just try to be a decent human being.
Whether this is all we have or if there's more afterwards, there are still plenty of good reasons not to waste it.
 
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i'm with heinlien on this

I don't know who is cranking but i'm glad he doesnt stop
 
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