Artex and asbestos

StewartR

StewartR

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We're going to have some building work done on our house which will probably require a couple of ceilings to be taken down. They are coated with Artex or an Artex-like product and were almost certainly originally installed when the house was built around 1968-1970.

Our builder has recommended that we have them tested for the presence of asbestos prior to work commencing. I'm sure that's probably quite sensible. However I'd welcome anybody's independent views regarding (a) how likely is it that there will be asbestos present, given the age of the property? and (b) if there is asbestos, how serious is it?
 
Thanks @gramps. However I have seen many many websites like this, and they are mostly operated by asbestos removal contractors or such like, so I'm slightly skeptical about the impartiality of the advice.

But also there's a subsidiary issue. Artex (the trade marked product manufactured by Artex Ltd) contained asbestos back then, no question. But how many ceilings built in this time period actually used Artex, as opposed to an Artex-like product from a different manufacturer? I have no idea of what market share Artex Ltd had back then. Also, how many of these products used asbestos? I have no idea of that either.

So although the ceiling looks like Artex, it might not be, and it might not contain asbestos. I'm hoping that someone with practical experience of these issues will be able to offer some guidance on the odds.
 
As an alternative, can you board over the current artex or even skim over? I boarded over my artex in the kitchen which also gives some noise reduction for our main bedroom above and a family member skimmed my dining room and extension.

Edit: Asbestos was sometimes used as a licence to print money, (I understand the dangers and you can't be to cautious) I have worked in the trade and been a H&S Officer and MIOSH. If you go down the testing and removal route get a few quotes. You could even take a little test yourself and have a local lab to test.
 
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/

Asbestos can be very bad news. A friend of mine, who was an interior decorator, died from an asbestos related lung condition recently some 20 years after initial diagnosis. He was ill for a very long time.
I have not read all that the HSE etc. have to say, but I have to wonder how your builder thinks testing is a matter of recommendation. I would seek reputable professional help.
 
If cost is a consideration you can always take down the ceiling yourself, as a private individual you can handle asbestos in a domestic environment and take it to your local council waste site, if you check your local authorities website it will advise you of your nearest domestic disposal point...you'll want to invest in decent mask, googles and strong plastic bags

Or do as we did when we stripped all of our artex using a wall paper steamer to soften it then scrape it off, be warned this can get messy
 
Even a small amount of aspestos can cause long term problems. There is an article on the BBC wales site about it being in schools. There are cases of teachers being killed by it, and if you think how rarely they would be moving any of it, let aline large amounts of it, yet still be affected. Get it tested for peace of mind or get it boarded / skimmed so as not too disturb it.
 
If the textured coating was applied in the late 60's early 70's it will almost certainly have asbestos in it. This is something that is simply not worth taking any risks with, if the ceilings have to come down I'd get a specialist asbestos removal company in. The problem with it in textured paints is that it is a very fine fibre, which if memory serves is the most harmful form.

If the builder removes it, make sure that he cleans up after him - it is the dust that will cause the issue.
 
I've had to do H&S training around asbestos and precautions to take etc. The fibres are very small and it could only take one to be inhaled into the lung to cause an issue (often years later). Do you really want to take that risk, if there is a chance of asbestos being present then get the pro's in to sort it.

The advice we have at work is that if asbestos is suspected, report to the relevant person (manager/customer etc) and leave well alone.
 
StewartR said:
We're going to have some building work done on our house which will probably require a couple of ceilings to be taken down. They are coated with Artex or an Artex-like product and were almost certainly originally installed when the house was built around 1968-1970.

Our builder has recommended that we have them tested for the presence of asbestos prior to work commencing. I'm sure that's probably quite sensible. However I'd welcome anybody's independent views regarding (a) how likely is it that there will be asbestos present, given the age of the property? and (b) if there is asbestos, how serious is it?
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If you get it tested then you'll know what you're dealing with. If it comes back negative then you can do whatever you want with it, so the cost of the test may be recovered without having to dodge the issue. If it comes back positive, your choices will depend on how big and swirly the pattern is since skimming can disturb the pointy bits and release asbestos fibres. If it's a relatively fine pattern skimming should be OK. If you decide to board over it, you can fix your lowered ceiling to the walls just below the artex without disturbing it.
 
I probably wouldn't recommend you over board do this unless you've had it tested and found it NOT to be asbestos. You are only leaving a trap for your self or future owners or contractors namely us electricians as if it is asbestos and you over board and then in the future work is done in the property ie. Downlights fittings we would be drilling into and creating alot of dust.
I'd get it tested and removed by professionals. But I'm abit biased as I've had colleagues die from asbestosis.

Just my thoughts.
 
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Loki said:
I probably wouldn't recommend you over board do this unless you've had it tested and found it NOT to be asbestos. You are only leaving a trap for your self or future owners or contractors namely us electricians as if it is asbestos and you over board and then in the future work is done in the property ie. Downlights fittings we would be drilling into and creating alot of dust.
I'd get it tested and removed by professionals. But I'm abit biased as I've had colleagues die from asbestosis.

Just my thoughts.
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That rang a bell. Many moons ago there used to be a TV advert on the dangers of asbestos. It featured an electrician drilling into artex and emphasising how little dust it took to kill.
 
Loki said:
I probably wouldn't recommend you over board do this unless you've had it tested and found it NOT to be asbestos. You are only leaving a trap for your self or future owners or contractors namely us electricians as if it is asbestos and you over board and then in the future work is done in the property ie. Downlights fittings we would be drilling into and creating alot of dust.
I'd get it tested and removed by professionals. But I'm abit biased as I've had colleagues die from asbestosis.

Just my thoughts.
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Couldn't agree more. One thing that REALLY bugs me about houses is that there is never any documentation regarding how things have been built, where the electric cables and water pipes run, and stuff like that. As part of our renovation project we're going to try to put that right, so that there are no (or at least fewer) nasty and potential surprises in the future.
 
This sort of thing gives me sleepless nights in my old house i live in with children. I found some in a fireplace that i just resealed up. It was pretty duty in there when i removes the electric fire. I felt sick with worry when i noticed it i had no mask. I also had a asbestos roof on a shed in the garden i had to remove and dump.

Just treat it as if it i asbestos why bother testing it. Just seal the whole lot with pva then dot and dab then plaster board over it is what i would do. Or should i say is what i will do i have the same issue in my bathroom.
 
Early artex will almost certainly contain asbestos. I'd do it myself as I've met the cowboys who do it "professionally"

It's not so much about removing it, it's about leaving the house clear of fibres afterwards

Have a look on the H.S.E website for "asbestos essentials", it's a very good guide on what you can do & how to do it.
 
Loki said:
I probably wouldn't recommend you over board do this unless you've had it tested and found it NOT to be asbestos. You are only leaving a trap for your self or future owners or contractors namely us electricians as if it is asbestos and you over board and then in the future work is done in the property ie. Downlights fittings we would be drilling into and creating alot of dust.
I'd get it tested and removed by professionals. But I'm abit biased as I've had colleagues die from asbestosis.

Just my thoughts.
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I had downlights fitted in my kitchen last year. Said to the electrician "that artex is old, probably contains asbestos". He seemed spectacularly unconcerned. Said the same to the plasterer, he also seemed spectacularly unconcerned. Both just got on with it. Maybe they figured they've done so many it's a bit late to worry about it.

Roof of the garage is corrugated asbestos, on looking into replacing it, it is considered safe for DIY disposal (so no specialist contractor needed) if care is taken and the tip will accept it provided it is bagged and they get advance notice.
 
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Have a look at your council website under pollution control / asbestos / building control or whatever. My council gives advice to the public and to businesses who think that they may have asbestos on their property.
Maybe worth an email/phone call to their enquiries desk.
 
There is no safe level of asbestos inhalation and as little as one fibre, which you cannot see, except under a microscope could result in a tumour.

There used to be no real concern until about thirty years ago even though the dangers were known, but now anyone in the medical profession particularly those who have to deal with the trauma of the resultant problems will avoid it like the plague. This will only get worse.

Unfortunately sparkies, roofers, plasterers and other tradespeople often dismiss the risks because of their own ignorance.

Artex itself is a trade brand belonging to British Gypsum and the stuff came ready mixed, but also many plasterers made up their own textured coating on site; one guy I knew pointed out the amount of asbestos depended on whether they had just opened a new bag or whether it was Friday afternoon! So even in the same room the ceiling could end up with different quantities of asbestos incorporated in the finish.

Generally the ill effects of asbestos fibre inhalation occur between about 18 - 40 years after exposure so its not an instant thing.

Strangely many school teachers have suffered due to the schools building programme in the 1950/60s that incorporated lots of asbestos materials, and is the unwritten reason why so many schools have been rebuilt over the past decade or so.

Yes there are instructions on DIY removal, but if you do, then there is no one else to blame than yourself and I personally would never attempt it, knowing what I do now. Plus a domestic vacuum will just redistribute the fibres as their filtering systems are nothing like good enough.

A lot of council tips still will not take asbestos materials and those that do insist on double bagging any suspected materials.

My advice is don't attempt it, but equally check out the quality and reputation of the licensed contractors too. There are a lot of cowboys out there due to the money involved.

At the end of the day, what is your health and that of those around you, worth?
 
A good friend of mine died from asbestosis. A very long and painful death.

It really is not worth the risk. As said above, it only takes a minute fibre.

Your life, and your family, surely deserve a bit of thought.
 
So how are " the experts" going to remove it without leaving one minute fibre, impossible, they even get stray fibres building satellites in a clean room.

I wouldn't start sanding it but following instruction I'd take a lot more care than some guy in a white suit who's done "the course"
 
wack61 said:
So how are " the experts" going to remove it without leaving one minute fibre, impossible, they even get stray fibres building satellites in a clean room.

I wouldn't start sanding it but following instruction I'd take a lot more care than some guy in a white suit who's done "the course"
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It gets expensive if done properly.
Professional companies know how to go about it safely with all the required equipment.
 
wack61 said:
So how are " the experts" going to remove it without leaving one minute fibre, impossible, they even get stray fibres building satellites in a clean room.

I wouldn't start sanding it but following instruction I'd take a lot more care than some guy in a white suit who's done "the course"
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The HSE website has a lot of information on it, but I've linked the one on removing artex up to 1 square metre for info. Larger areas will be similar, but probably not an amateur job. The only problem is that it tells you to clean up with a Type H vacuum cleaner and you won't be able to get one as they cost a fortune and no-one will hire one to you. :confused:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a28.pdf
 
I was in a panic myself not so long ago, and did some reading.

Although no amount of exposure is considered safe. You need to get some perspective. We breathe small amounts of this stuff in all the time in the outside air. It can even be in drinking water.

But then again i'm not a expert. I would rather cover it.
 
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Life is a fatal, sexually transmitted condition.
 
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