ARRI Lights

[Mahoneyd187]

Anyone used these?

Opinions?

Can they be used on a domestic UK circuit?

I'm debating getting one, and to be entirely honest I have no idea what power to get.

Regards

Danny

 

[Ozei]

Yes - I've used them. They're good lights.

Which ones are you thinking of?

http://www.arri.com/lighting/lighting_emea/tungsten_lampheads.html

I've run Arrilites (600, 800, 1000 and 2000 watt heads) on a domestic circuit but care is needed to avoid overloading - e.g. don't plug more than three 800w heads into the same ring main, etc.

I wouldn't try it at all with some of the bigger Arri lamps - e.g. the 5kw True Blue T5 which draws 20.8 amps per head.

 

[awp]

On a 13amp domestic plug you can run 3Kw of lighting. Possibly 32amp on a ring - but check first.
As a general guide - divide the wattage by the voltage of the system (220-240 in UK) to get the amps used. So a 1000W lamp will use approx 4.5 amps.

 

[swanseamale47]

An 800w light is drawing the bit over 3 amp, so I'd say 3 is about a safe limit on a 13 amp circuit, bare in mind unless you know the wiring is sound you might want to go easy.

 

[Ozei]

Also - be careful using extension leads/plugboards, etc. The usual ones found in shops like B&Q etc are too lightweight for some of these lamps - they really need heavy duty cable.

Plus - if you go for the Arrilite range, make sure they come with safety meshes - the bubbles are liable to explode if they get hit by a drop of water.

 

[flossie]

You need to be a bit more informative on what you are after - Arri make everything from 150W Tungsten to 18kW HMI heads...! But if you are wondering about their build quality - they are proper equipment and designed to be bashed about on a daily basis for decades on location and in studios (and believe me...they get bashed...) - if you can afford them, they are a great choice....not without flaws and issues, and the newer "True Blue" design is a bit Marmite in particular...but nothing is perfect.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

You guys are brilliant! Great information so far!

I'm looking at Fresnels for Beauty/Portrait/Fashion.

As far as I see my current options are Zoom Spot attachment for my Elinchrom heads, the MaxiSpot modifier (anybody used this?), modify a Fresnel hotlight to accommodate a flash head, or go continuous i.e. ARRI and get a purpose built fresnel.

Based on the usage....what are peoples opinions on the options and what might be best?

 

[awp]

For what you want to shoot I'd stick with flash.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

For what you want to shoot I'd stick with flash.

Sure, that's perfectly viable. But within that option, I would still like to replicate the qualities of a true fresnel spot.

So as I mentioned I think either the Zoom spot attachment for the Elinchrom Head, or the MaxiSpot, or shall I convert a fresnel hotlight to accept flash?

MaxiSpot = easy. £70. Bosh. BUT....it doesnt appear to be a very common modifier, I am unable to find sources to show this can provide the results I want.

Zoom Spot modifier - elinchrom is something like £700. Pricey...but I have no doubt it'll work well.

Or modify old school spot light....£$? I have no idea where to start but I'm sure I can find a unit that will pull apart and accept a speed-ring, and hence flash-head.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Ozei]

..... I'm looking at Fresnels for Beauty/Portrait/Fashion. .....

It all depends on which you're most comfortable with - continuous or flash.

If you opt for continuous, some 650 Plus fresnels (and/or True Blue T1) might be a good choice - especially if you put them on dimmers.

I wouldn't buy without trying them first though - you could hire a kit and see if you like them.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

It all depends on which you're most comfortable with - continuous or flash.

If you opt for continuous, some 650 Plus fresnels (and/or True Blue T1) might be a good choice - especially if you put them on dimmers.

I wouldn't buy without trying them first though - you could hire a kit and see if you like them.

Very true, I think I may well do that and organise a test shoot for it.

Ideally I'd go HMIs but well, I dont need to tell you why I'm not buying them lol

 

[Garry Edwards]

First off, don't get confused between a spot attachment and a fresnel attachment, or between a hotlight fresnel and a flash fresnel...

A spotlight attachment produces a very different type of light from a fresnel - I know because I have and use both. I have both the Elinchrom and Lencarta spotlight attachments. The Elinchrom one has a zoom adjustment, the Lencarta one doesn't. The Elinchrom one needs a large studio because it won't focus a sharp image unless it has a lot of space.

A spotlight attachment is a focussed light, normally used with gobos (cookies in americanese) and the quality of light is (should be) perfectly even.

A fresnel is entirely different, with a bright centre that tapes off towards the edges (some are adjustable, some aren't). The Lencarta one (which is out of stock but which I'm hoping will be back in stock in about a month) is adjusted by moving the flash head nearer or further away. The Bron one has an adjustable iris, both produce a very similar effect. Bowens make one too, AFAIK it isn't adjustable but I may be wrong about that. Elinchrom do one too, I haven't seen that one either, but in any event it's tiny and I would be very surprised if it was any use for people photography.

The fresnels traditionally used in theatre and movie lighting are of course continuous, not flash. I remember a discussion on another forum about this, a couple of people who had them said that they prefered the light quality from continuous fresnels, but I don't think there's much in it and it's probably just down to personal preference.

One thing you should seriously consider is the amount of light lost when using a focussing spotlight (if you really do want a focussing spotlight) - around 3 stops. No problem with flash, but you'd need a very slow shutter speed or a very powerful light if you want to photograph people with a continuous light that's going through a spotlight, or come to that through a fresnel spot.

Hope this helps.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

First off, don't get confused between a spot attachment and a fresnel attachment, or between a hotlight fresnel and a flash fresnel...

A spotlight attachment produces a very different type of light from a fresnel - I know because I have and use both. I have both the Elinchrom and Lencarta spotlight attachments. The Elinchrom one has a zoom adjustment, the Lencarta one doesn't. The Elinchrom one needs a large studio because it won't focus a sharp image unless it has a lot of space.

A spotlight attachment is a focussed light, normally used with gobos (cookies in americanese) and the quality of light is (should be) perfectly even.

A fresnel is entirely different, with a bright centre that tapes off towards the edges (some are adjustable, some aren't). The Lencarta one (which is out of stock but which I'm hoping will be back in stock in about a month) is adjusted by moving the flash head nearer or further away. The Bron one has an adjustable iris, both produce a very similar effect. Bowens make one too, AFAIK it isn't adjustable but I may be wrong about that. Elinchrom do one too, I haven't seen that one either, but in any event it's tiny and I would be very surprised if it was any use for people photography.

The fresnels traditionally used in theatre and movie lighting are of course continuous, not flash. I remember a discussion on another forum about this, a couple of people who had them said that they prefered the light quality from continuous fresnels, but I don't think there's much in it and it's probably just down to personal preference.

One thing you should seriously consider is the amount of light lost when using a focussing spotlight (if you really do want a focussing spotlight) - around 3 stops. No problem with flash, but you'd need a very slow shutter speed or a very powerful light if you want to photograph people with a continuous light that's going through a spotlight, or come to that through a fresnel spot.

Hope this helps.

Hi Garry

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I've definately got confused with the spotlight attachment vs fresnel attachment, I thought they were one and the same essentially. How are the light qualities different? Is it the soft edge of the fresnel vs the sharp edge of a spot attachment?

I have spoken to a very well respected people photographer in LA that uses fresnels mostly for his work and always has done. He uses both hotlights and flash, and has mentioned modifying continuous fresnels to house a flash internally. I'd read about it before but I havent seen it done...I quite fancy having a go but I'm not sure whether I'll be wasting my time.

What do you think of the Maxispot for the effect, have you used one? I'm not desperate for the cheapest option, but if it could do the job I may well try it

Thanks

Danny

 

[awp]

A true spot light, or ellipsoidal, has a focussing lens mechanism and produces quite a hard light - but with lots of control from shutters. Spot lights with more than one lens are zoom spots and the width of the beam can be varied when focussing. The hard edged light can be softened using frost or diffusion - but at the cost of some light output. A Fresnel - named after the guy who invented the fresnel lens - used in lighthouses - produces a softer light and is focussed by moving the light source relative to the lens - easily recognisable from the concentric rings etched on the surface. Light spill can be controlled using barn doors. The quality of light from a spot and a fresnel are quite different to each other - don't confuse the two.

 

[Ozei]

Ideally I'd go HMIs but well, I dont need to tell you why I'm not buying them lol

£9,260 + vat for the 18kW HMI -

Digibroadcast seem to have most of the Arri range - it might be worth a drive over to Surbiton for a complete demo.

http://digibroadcast.com/products/43/DAYLIGHT_HMI_12_18000W_SPOTLIGHT_(BABY)_L0_71160SB.htm (see links under 'Other Arri Lighting').

 

[Mahoneyd187]

Thanks for the explanation Andrew that's really helped.

How are the qualities of light different between the two though? Say if they're placed in identical positions pointed at a flat wall? Sorry to be a pain, just wanna get it straight in my head.

I'm pretty sure I want a fresnel...or a fresnel effect from the sound of it

 

[Garry Edwards]

Hi Garry

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I've definately got confused with the spotlight attachment vs fresnel attachment, I thought they were one and the same essentially. How are the light qualities different? Is it the soft edge of the fresnel vs the sharp edge of a spot attachment?

I have spoken to a very well respected people photographer in LA that uses fresnels mostly for his work and always has done. He uses both hotlights and flash, and has mentioned modifying continuous fresnels to house a flash internally. I'd read about it before but I havent seen it done...I quite fancy having a go but I'm not sure whether I'll be wasting my time./

Danny,
AWP has summed it up very nicely (and succinctly) and I can't improve on this

A true spot light, or episoidal, has a focussing lens mechanism and produces quite a hard light - but with lots of control from shutters. Spot lights with more than one lens are zoom spots and the width of the beam can be varied when focussing. The hard edged light can be softened using frost or diffusion - but at the cost of some light output. A Fresnel - named after the guy who invented the fresnel lens - used in lighthouses - produces a softer light and is focussed by moving the light source relative to the lens - easily recognisable from the concentric rings etched on the surface. Light spill can be controlled using barn doors. The quality of light from a spot and a fresnel are quite different to each other - don't confuse the two.

except perhaps to clarify the bit about the shutters - there is generally a movable shutter each side and top and bottom, they push in and out and also 'twisted' to produce literally any size or shape of light. Typically I've used them to light just the label on a bottle of wine or similar.

What do you think of the Maxispot for the effect, have you used one? I'm not desperate for the cheapest option, but if it could do the job I may well try it

Thanks

Danny

The Elinchrom Maxilite is just another reflector, a high intensity one that can throw light a long way and which is also useful for bouncing off the ceiling. I have one of those too. The effect it produces is nothing like either the fresnel or the focussing spot.

 

[awp]

A fresnel produces a soft edged spot of light - the profile spot doesn't - without frost. It produces a hard, sharp cutting beam - also often used to project gobos (patterns) on the stage or background etc. In theatre (profile) spots are used mainly FOH and for over stage specials - whereas fresnels are used for soft stage washes. For portraits/fashion I would guess the fresnel would give the quality of light you're after.

Fresnels typically focus between 8 - 80 deg - and spots 15 - 50 deg - but depending on model and manufacturer. With profile spots the name often gives you the angles as well - e.g. Source 4 15-32 would be 15 - 32 deg. etc.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

Thanks alot Andrew and Garry for clearing up my misunderstandings.

I've just had a look at some videos online and I now see exactly what you mean, the spread of light from the fresnel is no-where near as sharp as that of a spot design.

Ok so if I look at continuous fresnels firstly, I have no idea what kind of power I'm going to need to maintain a decent shutter speed. I don't need action stopping speed, but a sharp image is still important. I will be using medium format film, 180mm lens, tripod mounted. ANY indication of power recommendations appreciated. I'm going to rent some stuff first before I buy but I still need some idea.

thanks again

 

[Garry Edwards]

Thanks for the explanation Andrew that's really helped.

How are the qualities of light different between the two though? Say if they're placed in identical positions pointed at a flat wall? Sorry to be a pain, just wanna get it straight in my head.

I'm pretty sure I want a fresnel...or a fresnel effect from the sound of it

This page from the Lencarta Learning Centre may help. I don't have a pic of a fresnel pointed at a wall, but just think of it as a rough edged (not anywhere near as rough as the light from a honeycomb) that is bright at the centre and which gets progressively less bright towards the edges. The adjustable ones allow the degree of falloff to be varied.

 

[awp]

ANY indication of power recommendations appreciated.

In a confined space - e.g. studio - anything over 1Kw is going to fry your subject! They get pretty hot and give off a lot of heat.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

Hey Garry,

Don't Lencarta supply the fresnel modifier any more?

Looks like exactly what I want...

 

[Garry Edwards]

Hey Garry,

Don't Lencarta supply the fresnel modifier any more?

Looks like exactly what I want...

Yes, but as I said earlier it's out of stock, hopefully will be back in stock next month but I don't know for sure yet.

I think though that Photomart have one in stock, it might be worth ringing up and asking Juan Silver, their studio lighting man.

Of course, as you opted to buy Elinchrom you'll need a Lencarta flash to fit it too

Edit: I'm not sure, but it's possible that the new stock will be available to fit both Lencarta and Elinchrom

 

[Mahoneyd187]

Yes, but as I said earlier it's out of stock, hopefully will be back in stock next month but I don't know for sure yet.

I think though that Photomart have one in stock, it might be worth ringing up and asking Juan Silver, their studio lighting man.

Of course, as you opted to buy Elinchrom you'll need a Lencarta flash to fit it too

Edit: I'm not sure, but it's possible that the new stock will be available to fit both Lencarta and Elinchrom

Oh ok...so therefore it's not appearing on the site is that right? As it was in the picture on the article you sent me, but didn't appear on the site in the products section I assumed it was discontinued?!

Is the fresnel attachment an S fit or does it attach to the body of the flash head? Looks like I might have to buy a lencarta flash then doesn't it lol

 

[Garry Edwards]

Oh ok...so therefore it's not appearing on the site is that right? As it was in the picture on the article you sent me, but didn't appear on the site in the products section I assumed it was discontinued?!

Is the fresnel attachment an S fit or does it attach to the body of the flash head? Looks like I might have to buy a lencarta flash then doesn't it lol

It's an S fit. Because of its size and weight it has its own stand fitting and the flash head fits onto it rather than the other way round.

The way the Lencarta site works, if an item is out of stock it disappears from the site, that way people can't buy it thinking that it's in stock, which people tend to do even when there's a 3" high notice in red letters saying that it's out of stock...

Looks like I might have to buy a lencarta flash then doesn't it lol

Maybe you should have done that in the first place

 

[Mahoneyd187]

It's an S fit. Because of its size and weight it has its own stand fitting and the flash head fits onto it rather than the other way round.

The way the Lencarta site works, if an item is out of stock it disappears from the site, that way people can't buy it thinking that it's in stock, which people tend to do even when there's a 3" high notice in red letters saying that it's out of stock...
Maybe you should have done that in the first place

I'm not sure I can justify swapping my whole light set up right now just for the one modifier, so I may see if I can find a single cheap used S fit head, and if I can I may be interested in the Lencarta fresnel spot.

I did buy a Lencarta set, it was my first lighting set up,lol,lets not do this again! :bonk: lol

Thanks for the info, any idea when they're back in stock?

 

[flossie]

If you are thinking about experimenting with continous lighting, which it sounds like you have no experience of, I'd suggest getting some old theatre lights and mess about with them before committing to buy anything expensive - anything made by (e.g.) Strand is probably a good start - although be aware they will need to be checked-over by an electrician to be safe, and don't touch anything ropey-looking!


If you want another completely different thought, and looking for a very flexible studio light, Dedolights are excellent and far more powerful than you would expect for the wattage....but are very expensive.

FWIW, I own 6x of the 24V 150W Dedos, and they are almost as powerful as a 1kW Fresnel in a far smaller package... I would never buy anything larger myself, I just hire/spec them as needed, which varies enormously - as someone put it, "if they ain't burning, they ain't earning".

 

[flossie]

Ok so if I look at continuous fresnels firstly, I have no idea what kind of power I'm going to need to maintain a decent shutter speed. I don't need action stopping speed, but a sharp image is still important. I will be using medium format film, 180mm lens, tripod mounted. ANY indication of power recommendations appreciated. I'm going to rent some stuff first before I buy but I still need some idea.

Can you tell me how much Lux and at what distance, and I can tell you how powerful a fresnel you would need. Or alternatively, if this helps, a 1kW fresnel in full flood will give you approx. 400 lux at 6m.

 

[paul williams]

My Multiblitz Fresnel attachment is perhaps my favourite modifier and I use it in place of Snoots and 'gridded' reflectors as it has an adjustable iris it offers great control. It does however knock a few stops off the power output, but I always seem to have too much to start with. Walimex do one for Elinchrom (which is similar to the Lencarta) but I've not seen it in the flesh...also these can often be found on eBay.de sold by photo-walser for under £300 - again no idea if that is competitive.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

I may just see if I can get my hands on an ARRI Junior 650W fresnel to have a play. Not sure whether it'll be that good, I'm assuming its a smaller unit (hence jnr), thus the fresnel lens and source in relation to subject will be noticably smaller so unsure on it

Thanks alot for that info Paul, I'll have a look into it. Got any shots I can have a butchers at?

 

[Garry Edwards]

I used to use a Bron one, from memory it was 14" diameter. The Lencarta one is 8" diameter and is fine, although not quite as versatile as the larger Bron one. The Arri Junior is only 5.5" diameter, personally I don't think it's anywhere near large enough. Useful for small product photography though.

 

[itsdavedotnet]

It depends on your conscience, and usage, of course, etc, and they won't be the build / durability of arri's, but these chinese arri copies have been having pretty good press among the video lot on cheesycam... meant to be clones even down to having the same spare parts! Might be a good lower investment stepping stone for the cost of a couple hires, before deciding to splash on arris?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1000W-1KW-Fre...ltDomain_0&hash=item27ba32769a#ht_3015wt_1141

http://cheesycam.com/650-watt-lighting-kit-review-as-arri/

edit: review video:
http://vimeo.com/20188971

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-management/491945-anyone-have-exp-chinese-arri-knockoffs.html

edit: my god, they even do HMI's. Drool.


orrrr going second hand.... as long as you could find the juice, this would be a beast of a frensel... http://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=25981

 

[mr_v_s]

For what you want to shoot I'd stick with flash.

Ditto. I purchased a 3 x 800W Arri kit about 2 years ago while I was getting into portrait set-ups. Big mistake. Too much power, too much heat, much more advisable to invest in a decent flash kit.

I've seen the quality of light from Arri's (I do a fair bit of television set work). They're beautiful but I believe they're better suited to video work rather than photography work.

 

[flossie]

It depends on your conscience, and usage, of course, (...)

edit: my god, they even do HMI's. Drool.

Would you also suggest that we should shoot using mikon, cunon, pemtex, or phony cameras?!?!

Or lets look at it another way : I've personally seen someone nearly lose an eye to an exploding bulb in something that turned out to be a chinese knock off of the source 4 - I dread to think what damage a poorly made hmi could do, particularly with the large amounts of UV (very nasty, from arc eye to cancer) and remote ballasts (lethal).

In case you were wondering, I use these things all the time professionally. I would never ever encourage anyone to experiment with dodgy hmi's - its just not worth it!

 

[Mahoneyd187]

Ditto. I purchased a 3 x 800W Arri kit about 2 years ago while I was getting into portrait set-ups. Big mistake. Too much power, too much heat, much more advisable to invest in a decent flash kit.

I've seen the quality of light from Arri's (I do a fair bit of television set work). They're beautiful but I believe they're better suited to video work rather than photography work.

Hi,

With respect, this really isn't a continuous vs flash thread. I only want one fresnel, if it's flash, then great, but if I can get a cheaper alternative, and it's a hot light, then so be it, I'm happy to mix flash and continuous.

A lot of very high level photography is shot with fluro banks and HMIs, people photography included.

 

[itsdavedotnet]

Would you also suggest that we should shoot using mikon, cunon, pemtex, or phony cameras?!?!

Or lets look at it another way : I've personally seen someone nearly lose an eye to an exploding bulb in something that turned out to be a chinese knock off of the source 4 - I dread to think what damage a poorly made hmi could do, particularly with the large amounts of UV (very nasty, from arc eye to cancer) and remote ballasts (lethal).

In case you were wondering, I use these things all the time professionally. I would never ever encourage anyone to experiment with dodgy hmi's - its just not worth it!

This argument's been had several times on dvinfo etc, don't really care to get into it, I use legitimate equipment for my own professional work, and without knowing what Mahoney does, if amateurs or students for whom it'd be a case of either not having the equipment or using (say) a chinese frensel, want to do so, then meh.

Of course, for something as incredibly simple as a red head style thing (800w bulb in a tin can), I wouldn't be buying arri at all...

I think I would be inclined to agree with you on the HMIs, however they are likely well built, despite being chinese (it isn't always synonymous with 'crap') - and doubtless sold by b&h or similar as own brand lights - there's not a huge market for this kinda stuff I'd imagine. But yes, dangerous stuff.


I think Mahoney should go for the 2.5k frensel off bblist I linked to Might have to get a new light stand though....

 

[Mahoneyd187]

I used to use a Bron one, from memory it was 14" diameter. The Lencarta one is 8" diameter and is fine, although not quite as versatile as the larger Bron one. The Arri Junior is only 5.5" diameter, personally I don't think it's anywhere near large enough. Useful for small product photography though.

At a distance of 10ft or so, will the 2.5" make a real difference? That's not an argument provoking question it's a genuine one lol

 

[Mahoneyd187]

I think Mahoney should go for the 2.5k frensel off bblist I linked to Might have to get a new light stand though....

Na I'll use a voice activated light stand and I'll lend them a thick pair of gloves lol

 

[Garry Edwards]

Hi,

With respect, this really isn't a continuous vs flash thread. I only want one fresnel, if it's flash, then great, but if I can get a cheaper alternative, and it's a hot light, then so be it, I'm happy to mix flash and continuous.

A lot of very high level photography is shot with fluro banks and HMIs, people photography included.

Yes and no.
Yes, fluro banks and HMI's can be and are used for high level photography, but they produce very little heat compared to hotlights.

And yes, hotlights can be and are used for high level photography too, but mostly they're used in large professional studios with very high ceilings, lots of space and very little heat problem as a result. And when they're used on film sets they have heavy duty wiring, stable power supplies to ensure consistent colour temperature, excellent safety procedures etc. I'm not saying that they can't be used in small studios or in the home, but heat and safety do need to be taken into consideration. Consistent colour temperature can also be a problem outside of large professional studios - if someone switches on an electric kettle the colour temp goes down, often by as much as 500K.

And pro models and actors can cope much better with both heat and bright lights than the rest of us.

That's why most people use flash.

 

[mr_v_s]

Hi,

With respect, this really isn't a continuous vs flash thread. I only want one fresnel, if it's flash, then great, but if I can get a cheaper alternative, and it's a hot light, then so be it, I'm happy to mix flash and continuous.

A lot of very high level photography is shot with fluro banks and HMIs, people photography included.

I know, I've seen plenty of set-ups

The most common form of continuous light use I've seen is a 10k shining through a 10 x 10 silk frame (sometimes bigger given the light source).

I've shot some fantastic photos with intense continuous light but made the mistake of investing in an Arri kit when it wasn't fit for purpose.

It's not a case of continuous vs flash, they're both suited to sometimes very different needs.