Argueing with the DVLA - is it worth it ?

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stevewestern

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I need some help from you wise folks...

I recently traded my car with a dealer for something newer. My old car had 2 weeks road fund tax left on it.

I sent off my part of the log book as one is meant to do, but did not send it recorded delivery (can you guess where this is going yet ?)

A few weeks later I received a letter telling me the tax had run out and I needed to do something, so I tried calling the number given but despite many attempts I was unable to get through to anyone. As I was working away from home this got forgotten about as I assumed that things would work out, my slip would turn up and all would be OK - I know with hindsight that this may not have been wise..!

I then received a fine, telling me I owed £80 or £40 if I paid straight away.

I wrote to them explaining my situation, that I had sent my part of the log book, and that I had assumed the dealer would be responsible, and I sent this letter by recorded delivery - I also took a trip to the dealer who told me that they were going to be scrapping the car but had not yet done so as they were waiting till they had a full load of cars to scrap, and that it was my responsibility to inform the DVLA, which I felt I had. The dVLA have replied telling me I still owe them the money as they feel it is my problem. They tell me that they would have sent out a letter to me acknowledging receipt of my slip, but I have not had one.

My problem is that I feel that I did what I was meant to do, and it is assumed that I am guilty as somewhere either the post office or the DVLA seem to have lost my slip. So, what do you feel - should I just pay, or is it worth fighting this, as in my head I did what was required of me and that once again the little person looses out to the big guys who fail to take any responsibility. Should I take the letter to the dealer maybe ?

Any advice is much appreciated - I acknowledge that I should have been more on the ball about chasing the DVLA but feel slightly cheesed off by this all, so am I just making a fuss about nothing ?
 
I had a similar problem a couple of years ago and ended up paying because if I didn't they were going to take me to court!
I did the same as you and sent off my slip but it was mislaid either by themselves or the PO - nothing I said made any difference sorry to say :(
 
Thanks to you both for cheering me up.....
I kind of figured that I would end up paying, but £40 is a lot to me..
 
You're not making a fuss about nothing, you're undoubtedly right, but the DVLA are now just another group of money-grubbing scumbags who exploit their powers to pay themselves in a manner akin to Traffic Wardens. You could fight it, but remember they have an infinite fund that the state has already taken from its citizens with which they can fight against you!
 
I had a "threatening" letter from the dvla a few years back. I can't remember exactly what it was now but I think it was similar to the op.

I tried calling but the option that was appropriate for my situation just went to an automated saying "tough poop sunshine" (not so many words).

Anyway I put it to one side to sort later and promptly forgot about it. Nothing has happened to this day and it easily must have been 5 years ago.

Do you have a receipt from the dealer or can you get one? (May have missed this if already mentioned)
 
I've got no advice to offer i'm afraid - I have just traded my car in and picked up my new car on Saturday, so i've got to go through the same process.

After reading this, I think i'm going to scan a copy of the slip to a pdf and then send the original by recorded or special delivery to DVLA.....at least if that gets lost I can still send a copy to them.

I have also read similar stories on the Pistonheads motoring forum, so I wouldn't take any chances now.....I think in the past I might just have been "lucky" that everything has gone right.

I hope you get it resolved though, but I think if it was me, i'd pay the lower amount just to get them off my back.
 
Hmm, I think Neil was lucky. However, I think it's pointless arguing and it could turn out to be costly as legislation dictates that the owner is obliged to notify DVLA. Sadly, the fact that notifications go missing in the postal system or their care counts for nothing. Although it is a lot of money and I would be seriously hacked off I would just pay it for the peace of mind.
 
It's the same with all these "public servants" and depends how much you value your time - I always take a cost effective view, (they are 10 times worse in France were I live) - not worth the hassle, for smallish amounts just pay up and get on with it, even if you are 100% "right"
 
Blank_Canvas said:
as legislation dictates that the owner is obliged to notify DVLA
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You could always use their own wording against them. The registered keeper is not necessarily the owner :D

Seriously though, I'd personally write back and just state you sold the car to X dealers on X date, while it was taxed. You have a receipt for the new car / trade (I'm hoping!), showing the transaction was done.
Ergo, you are no longer responsible.

Don't ring, don't plead or ask. Just state facts.
Say you're not paying, because it's not your car anymore.
 
Did you get proof of postage? If so it is generally assumed the dvla will have received it. They've been caught on this before.

Lots of organisations refuse recorded delivery anyway so first class with certificate of posting is the best method.

Stern letter as mentioned above!
 
Sadly, the registered keeper is responsible for all the DVLA guff.
 
srichards said:
Did you get proof of postage? If so it is generally assumed the dvla will have received it. They've been caught on this before.

Lots of organisations refuse recorded delivery anyway so first class with certificate of posting is the best method.
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Exactly what I did last year, I scanned everything to keep copies and then sent off the originals to the DVLA with a free proof of posting from the PO.
 
Marcel said:
You could always use their own wording against them. The registered keeper is not necessarily the owner :D

Seriously though, I'd personally write back and just state you sold the car to X dealers on X date, while it was taxed. You have a receipt for the new car / trade (I'm hoping!), showing the transaction was done.
Ergo, you are no longer responsible.

Don't ring, don't plead or ask. Just state facts.
Say you're not paying, because it's not your car anymore.
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Exactly. I traded my car in last week. I have a receipt for the new car with the trade in mentioned including my trade in's registration no. Hopefully the OP will have something similar. Photocopy the receipt and send that off to the DVLA. It's the responsibility of both parties to send off their share of the log book ASAP, the fault clearly lies with the dealership.
 
Thanks for all the replies and advice - I do have a receipt from the dealer for the car and sent a copy with my letter. I DID have proof of postage but had a clear out a few days before I got the fine as it had been several months (I sold the car in early February)
I wet to ask the dealer what had happened to the car and they just said it was my responsibility to inform the DVLA - they were going to do the same when they actually got the thing scrapped. Again, the little guy looses out..

I shall write a letter but guess that I will end up paying as clearly I am in the wrong even if I have done as I am meant to.

A lesson learned for me and I hope that anyone who is going to have any dealings with the DVLA or another large organization will take precautions....!
 
Unfortunately, it is still your responsibility if the Post Office have managed to lose your letter and not deliver it.

Not your fault, but still your responsibility.


Steve.
 
stevewestern said:
Thanks for all the replies and advice - I do have a receipt from the dealer for the car and sent a copy with my letter. I DID have proof of postage but had a clear out a few days before I got the fine as it had been several months (I sold the car in early February)
I wet to ask the dealer what had happened to the car and they just said it was my responsibility to inform the DVLA - they were going to do the same when they actually got the thing scrapped. Again, the little guy looses out..

I shall write a letter but guess that I will end up paying as clearly I am in the wrong even if I have done as I am meant to.

A lesson learned for me and I hope that anyone who is going to have any dealings with the DVLA or another large organization will take precautions....!
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That receipt should stand up in court if needs be I reckon.

Doesn't the dealer retain the main v5 and the seller get the small yellow section? Who sends which bit off?
 
neil_g said:
That receipt should stand up in court if needs be I reckon.

Doesn't the dealer retain the main v5 and the seller get the small yellow section? Who sends which bit off?
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That's correct. I also think the receipt would be perfectly acceptable as proof if it went to court. I'd have thought any self respecting judge would see the DVLA as wasting the courts time if they had already been supplied with such proof.
 
neil_g said:
That receipt should stand up in court if needs be I reckon.

Doesn't the dealer retain the main v5 and the seller get the small yellow section? Who sends which bit off?
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The dealer retains the big bit and I got the smaller bit which I think was yellow.
However, as Joe points out in the post above yours it remains my responsibility.
 
With a reciept which shows the date of sale I wouldn't pay either.

Take Marcels advice about just stating facts, you are not arguing, you are telling them that it is not your car at the time that they want money for it not being taxed.(and you are giving them the details of who they need to pursue!)
 
stevewestern said:
I wrote to them explaining my situation, that I had sent my part of the log book, and that I had assumed the dealer would be responsible, and I sent this letter by recorded delivery - I also took a trip to the dealer who told me that they were going to be scrapping the car but had not yet done so as they were waiting till they had a full load of cars to scrap, and that it was my responsibility to inform the DVLA, which I felt I had. The dVLA have replied telling me I still owe them the money as they feel it is my problem. They tell me that they would have sent out a letter to me acknowledging receipt of my slip, but I have not had one.
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what were the T&Cs of your trade in? sounds a bit like the dealer (at least partially) is at fault here but my gut tells me the dealer is wholly to blame.
 
strumstrum said:
what were the T&Cs of your trade in? sounds a bit like the dealer (at least partially) is at fault here but my gut tells me the dealer is wholly to blame.
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Terms and conditions..?
I have no idea.
The dealer is one of the biggest in this area and they accepted my car in part exchange for a newer one. The back of my contract with them says nothing about trade in T&C's.
 
stevewestern said:
The dealer retains the big bit and I got the smaller bit which I think was yellow.
However, as Joe points out in the post above yours it remains my responsibility.
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As you have sent off the yellow portion of the logbook and have a receipt as proof of change of ownership (relinquished state of being registered keeper) you have done as the DVLA has asked. The liability now lies in their court or the dealers. Keep arguing. If you have legal cover with your car insurance, get in touch with them and see what they have to say.
 
Yup, been here with a motorbike and exactly the same thing. Just write back, recorded delivery, state the facts of when you sold the vehicle, any copy of the sale documentation and that in accordance with the instructions you sent your part of the document back to them.
 
Yves Geza said:
You're not making a fuss about nothing, you're undoubtedly right, but the DVLA are now just another group of money-grubbing scumbags who exploit their powers to pay themselves in a manner akin to Traffic Wardens. You could fight it, but remember they have an infinite fund that the state has already taken from its citizens with which they can fight against you!
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:agree:

A number of years ago, my Wife was showing the first symptoms of what turned out to be early onset Alzheimer's. She was brought home from work and my Son went to collect her car. Unfortunately, he wrote it off on the way home. DVLA were informed.

Fast forward some months later and got a notification that car tax was due. Advised DVLA that they had already been informed of total loss.

Fast forward a few more months and received a fine from DVLA. Protested by email and was told it was our responsibility to prove that we had informed DVLA and our responsibility to make sure they answered. If we did not receive an acknowledgment that was our fault and we should have chased up.

Got phone number of local DVLA office and a very nice (or I thought so at the time) man offered to sort it out and waive the fine, but still reiterated it was my responsibility to have made sure that the DVLA had acknowledged and to retain the document. Unfortunately, my Son's own car had been stolen and totalled by the thieves. I told the DVLA guy saying that I did not want the same to happen here. The portion of the log book having already been sent to DVLA. He took the details and said "don't worry, I will follow up and ensure it is dealt with". I asked if we needed to have an acknowledgment. He said normally yes but not in this instance as he will deal with it.

Fast forward a few months and received a fine for not having advised DVLA.

Email complaint sent to CEO of DVLA - no response. Followed up with more only to find that the DVLA had blocked my email address.

Email sent to Minister of Transport. Received a full apology and all fines waived and confirmation that email address had been unblocked.

I have nothing but contempt for this organisation.

My advise is to complain and, if need be, write to the Govt Minister responsible. The DVLA is operated as an outsourced dept. and it's time the Govt monitored their performance. At the time I goggled to see if my experience was unique - there were numerous examples similar to mine and cases going to court and being lost by the DVLA.

Good luck.
 
Had a similar thing with TfL: a car we'd sold was driven in central London & we were sent the fine. Sorted in the end by providing a receipt from dealer we sold to.

Hope this works out for you.
 
Sold our two cars 10 days ago and bought new, sent the relevant bits of the V5C off - remembering this thread I send them '1st Class Signed-For' ... haven't had a reply up to today so just checked the Royal Mail website, "being progressed through our network" ... so much for "we aim to deliver next day"! :rolleyes:
 
gramps said:
Sold our two cars 10 days ago and bought new, sent the relevant bits of the V5C off - remembering this thread I send them '1st Class Signed-For' ... haven't had a reply up to today so just checked the Royal Mail website, "being progressed through our network" ... so much for "we aim to deliver next day"! :rolleyes:
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Did the same last week when we sold our 206

Remembered this thread and sent it off recorded delivery
 
Similar experience with national insurance contributions a few years back, they wrote me a stiff letter saying They had no records of my contributions over several years, threatened all sorts of money recovery procedures.
I reply in writing stating it was wrong as I had wage slips for that time proving stoppages for NI contributions. This did not shift them one jot from their position, a threat of court action duly arrived after much wasted letter writing and phone calls I told them I would see them in court and then claim all my expenses including loss of earnings travel out of pocket etc, etc, and my time would charged and invoiced be at the rate of £250 per hour. this obviously jerked a chain somewhere as within a week I was told by letter my ex employer went out of business owing thousands in NI payments...no apology or sweet fa I have kept all my records for that era just in case. I'm presently trying to claim a tax refund on a pension lump sum at source deduction and it's turning into a "we have not received your paperwork yet" nightmare... that was in January last.
 
Arguing with the DVLA is like bashing your head against a brick wall . . . very hard . . . repeatedly.

My DVLA farce story (short version) :

> Bought a new car from a main dealership about 2 years ago - taxed by the dealership.

> Two weeks after getting the car, a letter arrived stating that their records showed that we didn't have any road tax. Phoned them, explained that we'd had the car for 2 weeks and yes, it was definitely taxed. The person on the phone told us not to worry. It could just be that the computer system hadn't been updated with all the details yet and to forget about it.

> A couple of months later we received another letter with a fine for non payment of road tax (which would increase if not paid immediately)

> Tried phoning them again and was told that since this had been placed with their 'enforcement team' they couldn't take any phone calls about it. All correspondence now had to be carried out in writing and it could take up to 3 months for them to finish investigating.

> So we sent them a letter through registered post, including a photocopy of the tax disc, all the related documents and even a copy of proof of purchase for the tax disc which the car dealership kindly supplied us with.

> The whole thing went on for the full 3 months, with lots of threatening letters in between (bigger fines / court action etc) - all of which were replied to quoting our case number, informing them that we were disputing it and including yet more copies of the documentation . I know that all the letters were received, but we didn't receive any acknowledgement and still weren't allowed to speak to anybody over the phone.

> Finally when the 3 months were up, we eventually got a letter back telling us that yes, we were correct. The vehicle was in fact taxed and it was an admin error on their side :banghead:

You'd think it would end there, but no. Another couple of weeks after that we received yet another version of the first letter informing us that the vehicle wasn't taxed.
By this point I was almost begging them to take us to court to expose the whole farce and reach an end to it all :LOL:

Anyway, phoned them (again!) and . . . wait for it . . .
The enforcement team is in a completely different department to the team who deal with the initial letters so they wouldn't have any idea what had gone before.
Apparently, it was our responsibility to inform the first department that the dispute had been settled and instruct them to update their systems to show that the vehicle was taxed. What?!?!

Complete and utter incompetence from beginning to end.
 
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Phoning them is a waste of time. Any communication with them needs to be via signed for mail and even then, they'll wriggle. There used to be an office on a trading estate here in town (which made very good sense since it was near the middle of the largest agglomeration of car dealers in the country [if not the continent!]) but that's been closed relatively recently - probably because they were quite efficient in there and made the rest of the useless tw@s look bad! Doesn't help that they seem to put the least comprehensible (broadest locally accented) people on their "helplines"...
 
SarahLee said:
Arguing with the DVLA is like bashing your head against a brick wall . . . very hard . . . repeatedly.

My DVLA farce story (short version) :

> Bought a new car from a main dealership about 2 years ago - taxed by the dealership.

> Two weeks after getting the car, a letter arrived stating that their records showed that we didn't have any road tax. Phoned them, explained that we'd had the car for 2 weeks and yes, it was definitely taxed. The person on the phone told us not to worry. It could just be that the computer system hadn't been updated with all the details yet and to forget about it.

> A couple of months later we received another letter with a fine for non payment of road tax (which would increase if not paid immediately)

> Tried phoning them again and was told that since this had been placed with their 'enforcement team' they couldn't take any phone calls about it. All correspondence now had to be carried out in writing and it could take up to 3 months for them to finish investigating.

> So we sent them a letter through registered post, including a photocopy of the tax disc, all the related documents and even a copy of proof of purchase for the tax disc which the car dealership kindly supplied us with.

> The whole thing went on for the full 3 months, with lots of threatening letters in between (bigger fines / court action etc) - all of which were replied to quoting our case number, informing them that we were disputing it and including yet more copies of the documentation . I know that all the letters were received, but we didn't receive any acknowledgement and still weren't allowed to speak to anybody over the phone.

> Finally when the 3 months were up, we eventually got a letter back telling us that yes, we were correct. The vehicle was in fact taxed and it was an admin error on their side :banghead:

You'd think it would end there, but no. Another couple of weeks after that we received yet another version of the first letter informing us that the vehicle wasn't taxed.
By this point I was almost begging them to take us to court to expose the whole farce and reach an end to it all :LOL:

Anyway, phoned them (again!) and . . . wait for it . . .
The enforcement team is in a completely different department to the team who deal with the initial letters so they wouldn't have any idea what had gone before.
Apparently, it was our responsibility to inform the first department that the dispute had been settled and instruct them to update their systems to show that the vehicle was taxed. What?!?!

Complete and utter incompetence from beginning to end.
Click to expand...

Makes me feel a whole lot more optimistic :eek:
 
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