Are vegans in trouble

One thing I don't understand is why veggie alternatives are named after and made in the form of the original meat products.
Seen rashers, burgers and sausages, even a haggis, no doubt others too
 
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Mark twiglet said:
I was a big cheese eater! Not anymore !!! No cheese or milk or coffee or tea ...... nettle tea now and a touch of honey
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tijuana taxi said:
One thing I don't understand is why veggie alternatives are named after and made in the form of the original meat products.
Seen rashers, burgers and sausages, even a haggis, no doubt others too
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Burgers and sausages are convenient shapes, not ingredients.

I do agree in part though. Quorn refers to its chunks as 'chicken pieces' which they clearly are not.


Steve.
 
I eat a lot of Quorn stuff, I like their bacon and in fact we had Quorn bacon sarnies with home made bread and brown source this morning :D When it comes to sausages I prefer the Linda McCartney ones, fried with oodles of onions. Mrs WW makes lots of Thai dinners with Quorn too and they're never anything other than heaven :D I've thought about going vegan but to be honest I like my milk and butter too much :D

I do worry about the long term effects of being vegan. I asked my sis (a nurse) about it years ago and the reply was that it's ok for a while but gives problems long term. I asked again recently thinking that the diet may have improved but she said not and they still get vegans in with issues. I wonder if this is something that can work with care or if we westerners just aren't built for it. Just out of interest, has anyone here been a vegan for a long time and if so do they have any issues?
 
Steve Smith said:
Interesting reading for those who think humans are omnivores...
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The problem with that is, early humans were hunter gatherers, meat fruit and insects, that makes us a true omnivore.
moving forward, they started to use tools to kill meat, therefore our tooth formation was for ripping (Incisors)
and the molars are for grinding. once we discovered fire, the teeth formation slightly changed.
And through the course of evolution there was little use for true canines

Now look at true carnivorous, the canines are extended, these are used for holding and killing..
The rest as above.

And that includes monkeys, who actually do eat a lot of meat. ( and insects and berries)


Cheese or bacon? now if I want a quick sarnie, as a fully fledges card carrying omnivore that is a tough call :D.

I know that vegetarians have been around a long time, but I also remember when it became "Fashionable"
Late 60's / early 70's.
And I also remember being able to pick them out of a crowd, due to the pallor of their skin, Mostly it seems because they didn't understand the
difference between 1st and 2nd class protein.

Thankfully these days, there are much better foods available, for veggies.
And they are getting a much better balanced diet.

I have no problem if people want to be veggies whatsoever, just as long as it doesn't become compulsory :)


Although what I do object to, is those that take the moral high ground, tell everyone how "good" they are, but still eat chicken / fish.
 
Cobra said:
Although what I do object to, is those that take the moral high ground, tell everyone how "good" they are, but still eat chicken / fish.
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I think they're the people who would behave the same even if wasn't about veganism or vegetarianism.
 
omens said:
I think they're the people who would behave the same even if wasn't about veganism or vegetarianism.
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Fair point, well presented :thumbs:
 
I have no feelings one way or another on the health aspect or ethics of eating meat and everybody is entitled to their own choices.
All the meat substitutes I have tried tasted awful, admittedly not that many and won't bother again.

Only eat butter and full cream milk and no fan of scrape or watery milk, enjoy the fat on Steak and Pork crackling too.
All I ask is that my choice is also respected and nobody tries to say i'm wrong, others can do as they wish, but no crusading thank you
 
tijuana taxi said:
and Pork crackling too.
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Oooo yes!
I picked up a nice pork joint in Iceland the other day, I don't normally shop there, but this pork joint was so tender and sweet,
complete with crackling and not soggling, as is the norm these days.

Just like Arnie, I shall be back :thumbs:
 
Cobra said:
Oooo yes!
I picked up a nice pork joint in Iceland the other day, I don't normally shop there, but this pork joint was so tender and sweet,
complete with crackling and not soggling, as is the norm these days.

Just like Arnie, I shall be back (y)
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One German delicacy not widely available here is the Crispy Pork Knuckle, delicious and even better washed down with a glass or two of Altbier
 
A bit of pork crackling was the final straw to send Mrs Nod veggie 25 or so years ago! The day before, a 1/2 chicken almost sent her over the edge (it looked too much like a "real" chicken) then the hairy crackling tipped her over the edge. She did eat fish for a month or so afterwards but then decided to go the whole (Quorn) hog and stop eating any flesh. She still eats dairy and eggs but doesn't eat anything that involves an animal's death (although she still wears leather) so avoids any rennet curdled cheese and products that contain gelatine.
No plans to go vegan!
 
Steve Smith said:
It is certainly much more difficult than being vegetarian, but is possible.
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It's about as "hard" as being a vegetarian was about 15 years ago ;) There are now three 100% vegan cafes/restaurants in the town I live in. That's up from zero this time last year. Waitrose has a vegan aisle, Iceland will soon and Tescos and Sainsburys are fighting to buy up the next big thing in vegan food. There are probably 10 places within walking distance where I could buy a slice of cake. Wills Vegan Shoes makes buying even proper grown up shoes easy and with the internet, well, I bought a really cool handmade belt from somewhere in Arizona for about the price of walking into Next and getting a mass produced leather one. It's easier every day.

woof woof said:
I do worry about the long term effects of being vegan. I asked my sis (a nurse) about it years ago and the reply was that it's ok for a while but gives problems long term. I asked again recently thinking that the diet may have improved but she said not and they still get vegans in with issues. I wonder if this is something that can work with care or if we westerners just aren't built for it. Just out of interest, has anyone here been a vegan for a long time and if so do they have any issues?
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Well, your sister is wrong. It's perfectly possible to eat a junk filled vegan diet (actually easier than ever) but it's also easily possible to have an excellent diet without animal products. I've been vegan for a little over 3 years now and I show little sign of dying. My wife has been vegan for about 35 years and I don't even bother to insure her life :D

Further reading if your sister is interested - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0114MO6IE/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 - the last 40% of the book is scholarly references so science type people like this book.

BTW, we are all aware that *most* Quorn isn't vegan, right? When it was first made, it wasn't even properly veggie. Then they realised they could flog it to those weak protein starved vegetarians and changed the recipe. Now there are 4 or 5 of their products that are vegan.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Well, your sister is wrong. It's perfectly possible to eat a junk filled vegan diet (actually easier than ever) but it's also easily possible to have an excellent diet without animal products. I've been vegan for a little over 3 years now and I show little sign of dying. My wife has been vegan for about 35 years and I don't even bother to insure her life :D
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If you have a truly vegan diet you will lack vitamin B12 as it is not found in plants or fungi.
 
To be truly vegan though, surely isn't just about what you eat, but should also include the other items in life which have parts containing animal bi-products, such as furniture and other household items, the paint on your walls, electrical goods, even the car you drive and the camera you shoot with.
 
viv1969 said:
To be truly vegan though, surely isn't just about what you eat, but should also include the other items in life which have parts containing animal bi-products, such as furniture and other household items, the paint on your walls, electrical goods, even the car you drive and the camera you shoot with.
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A bit difficult though if you need to use cash with the new fivers!
 
Steve Smith said:
Burgers and sausages are convenient shapes, not ingredients.

I do agree in part though. Quorn refers to its chunks as 'chicken pieces' which they clearly are not.


Steve.
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But when I went through a phase of catering occasional events for large numbers (summer camps, 80 people for a week) as a volunteer it made life so, so easy in finding substitutes that I wouldn’t ever complain about it...
 
Cobra said:
Although what I do object to, is those that take the moral high ground, tell everyone how "good" they are, but still eat chicken / fish.
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People are turning veggie/vegan for a number of reasons and depending on the context of "good" then I can see how what they're saying does make a bit of sense. In terms of animal cruelty absolutely not, but if it's for carbon reduction / climate change reasons then yes just cutting out other meats such as beef and lamb gets you pretty far along the way to being "good".
 
'Vegetarian' does not mean eating vegetables. The word is derived from the Latin 'vegetus which means healthy. A vegetarian is someone who eats healthy food which might well include chicken and fish.'
 
john.margetts said:
'Vegetarian' does not mean eating vegetables. The word is derived from the Latin 'vegetus which means healthy. A vegetarian is someone who eats healthy food which might well include chicken and fish.'
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Where does that quote come from? First time I've ever heard that definition! I don't think any reasonable person in the current age could interpret vegetarian as anything other than not eating any animal flesh including all red meat, poultry, fish etc. Certainly no mainstream website follows your definition!
 
What quote? I didn't quote anything. Most modern (newer than 1700) English words are derived from either Latin or Greek (occasionally both as with 'television').
 
john.margetts said:
'Vegetarian' does not mean eating vegetables. The word is derived from the Latin 'vegetus which means healthy. A vegetarian is someone who eats healthy food which might well include chicken and fish.'
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Even if that's the case, I think the common usage is entirely accepted as a person who does not eat meat.
 
This quote:

john.margetts said:
'vegetus which means healthy. A vegetarian is someone who eats healthy food which might well include chicken and fish.'
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I agree with first bit, the etymology, that it derives from Latin but beyond that is a misguided modern day definition.
 
john.margetts said:
If you have a truly vegan diet you will lack vitamin B12 as it is not found in plants or fungi.
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Well, yes. But it mainly isn't "naturally" found in meat anymore either. B12 comes from dirt (actually microbes but they live in dirt). Animals scrabble and peck in the dirt for food, absorb very low amounts of B12 and people who eat them get a little B12 like this (though whether or not they absorb it is a different matter.) Modern farming means animals just don't get dirty enough. Which is why they shovel massive amounts of B12 into their food. It's likely I eat enough dirt to survive but the current US recommendation is that everybody over 50 should either eat "fortified" foods or take a B12 supplement. The NHS recommendation is more cautious but says that a supplement won't do you any harm and B12 deficiency is actually a pretty nasty thing.

Same way that everybody in the UK should be taking D3 during the winter - you can't get enough from the sun and it's really really hard to get enough from whatever food you eat. https://www.nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/the-new-guidelines-on-vitamin-d-what-you-need-to-know/

srichards said:
http://www.vegsource.com/john-davis/the-vegetus-myth.html - seems a reasonable explanation of where this comes from.
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There's an even more interesting article linked to from that one. Apparently they can exactly date the word vegetarian to a small area of London in 1847 - and it certainly didn't include chicken :D http://www.vegsource.com/john-davis/vegetarian-equals-vegan.html
 
IIRC, shellfish are among the best sources of natural B12; lucky I like mussels and crab! Plenty of D in other sea food too (again, IIRC), especially mackerel and salmon.
 
Nod said:
IIRC, shellfish are among the best sources of natural B12; lucky I like mussels and crab! Plenty of D in other sea food too (again, IIRC), especially mackerel and salmon.
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Yes, the sea is still pretty dirty ;) Absorption varies though - anecdotally more meat eaters end up B12 deficient than vegans because they assume they can just stuff themselves with caviar ;) This is why the US recommend everybody to supplement - I can't find the link but IIRC it's women over 40 and men over 50.

Same with D3. NHS say it's a bit chancy trying to get it from food. (The article above explains that the press widely misreported this as "stuff yourself with salmon" when what they really said was "consider taking a supplement".)
 
JonathanRyan said:
Well, yes. But it mainly isn't "naturally" found in meat anymore either. B12 comes from dirt (actually microbes but they live in dirt). Animals scrabble and peck in the dirt for food, absorb very low amounts of B12 and people who eat them get a little B12 like this (though whether or not they absorb it is a different matter.) Modern farming means animals just don't get dirty enough.
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Actually, in ruminants (which are the main animals we eat) it comes from the bacteria that ferment the grass etc in the animals' rumen. Keeping the animals clean does not affect that.
 
john.margetts said:
Actually, in ruminants (which are the main animals we eat) it comes from the bacteria that ferment the grass etc in the animals' rumen. Keeping the animals clean does not affect that.
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My apologies. By "clean" I meant "so stuffed with antibiotics that nothing natural can live". They do stuff them with B12 as well though so who knows?

Also,

ruminants (which are the main animals we eat)
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Nope. That's chicken. That's by weight as well as (massively) by number.
 
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