APSC cropped sensor camera - Noise Management or Upgrade Camera??

West Camera

West Camera

Can I be Frank?
Suspended / Banned
Messages
168
Name
frank west
Edit My Images
No
I would like to ask a question within this thread which may be relevant. Any answers would be appreciated:

If you are shooting say with an APSC cropped sensor camera where you get lots of noise generated which would be better - move up to FF or try to address it through a software program like Topaz Denoise? And, at what point do you stop trying to deal with shortcomings with work arounds and just move on to the next and better camera?

MOD EDIT: THIS QUESTION ORIGINATED AS AN OFF-TOPIC POST IN A PRETTY MUCH UNRELATED THREAD, TO SAVE DERAILING THAT MORE INTERESTING THREAD, THIS HAS BEEN SPUN OFF INTO IT'S OWN LITTLE CORNER.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
West Camera said:
I would like to ask a question within this thread which may be relevant. Any answers would be appreciated:

If you are shooting say with an APSC cropped sensor camera where you get lots of noise generated which would be better - move up to FF or try to address it through a software program like Topaz Denoise? And, at what point do you stop trying to deal with shortcomings with work arounds and just move on to the next and better camera?
Click to expand...
You need to post this in the correct thread.
You can start one here...
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/talk-equipment.14/
 
Last edited:
Personally I would say a body/camera is just a tool, yes you can hammer in 6”nails with a pin hammer, but you wouldn’t want to build a house with it.

If it’s the odd occasion and you don’t want to change then processing is fine, if you main objective is to shoot in caves then the right tool for the job is far better than trying to overcome its shortcomings constantly.

In basic if it’s a constant problem and funds allow, move to a body that suits your needs/type of photography, if funds don’t then you do what you can.

Maybe let us know what sort of iso you need to shoot at, could there be an option to reduce this by glass/flash other options ?
 
TBH, due to my background in shooting film, I find modern digital cameras with APS-C or larger sensors produce similar noise at ISO 6400 to the average ISO 400 film. Because of this, I have always turned all luminance NR off as it simply robs an image of fine detail and in some cases can lead to an image looking almost "plastic" for want of a better word. Chrominance NR I do at a minimal level to simply remove false colour blotches, which are less obvious now than they were 10 years ago.

My Fuji X-E3 seems to be roughly on par with my Nikon D810 at like for like ISOs. That said, if I down sample the 36mpx images to 24mpx the D810 would probably show a little less noise.
 
What are you shooting- what subjects, that is. Technique can be more important than either kit or software.
 
Noise is a difficult one as not everyone sees it the same, and not all noise is the same. For example I prefer more smaller finer grain noise over less but larger grain noise. Also there are so many variables, light, quality of light, ISO settings, exposure, focus etc etc. Then there's processing, shooting RAW usually yields better results but if you push exposure and/or shadows hard you will tend to introduce noise whatever camera you're using, especially at higher ISO.

I can't remember the last time I added any NR to my Nikon files, and I don't even add any NR to my Olympus files until 6400 ISO. Older generation cameras do struggle with noise more and if you have one of these you 'may' see a benefit in upgrading the camera. It's difficult to recommend what to do though without knowing your gear?

Whilst not 100% I find this tool useful to get a comparison as to how cameras handle noise differently. As you can see, at 12800 there's not 'that' much difference between the APS-C D500 and the FF cameras
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/im...=1&x=0.1273693298797901&y=-0.9861072664359862
 
TheBigYin said:
or, I could just snip the question out of the thread in question and give it it's own little thread.

@West Camera - please don't post stuff like this in unrelated threads and derail them... as @Bobsyeruncle said, post your own thread instead in future - save me having to mess around moving things like this.
Click to expand...
My apologies for this. I thought it might be right for the thread. Will be more careful in the future. Thank you.
 
john.margetts said:
What are you shooting- what subjects, that is. Technique can be more important than either kit or software.
Click to expand...
The OP in that discussion was shooting with a Canon 1000D doing night time cityscapes and street level night time scenes. The issue for him is the cost of moving up to FF given that he lives in the London area with a hard brexit which means converting back to the pound sterling that will make FF very expensive to move up to. I was suggesting an alternative. Any alternatives under these conditions? For myself, the FF seems to be merchandised as a solution to all problems. Unfortunately, inexperienced photographers become victimized by such marketing. There surely is lots in between an entry level cropped sensor DSLR and a FF. Finances alone for one. As finances become more of a concern I am sure others will be asking themselves the same questions - how to move up without breaking the bank. (Maybe this will slow down the massive switch to FF which the manufacturers seem to be taking as a course.)
 
Last edited:
I'm a little confused here, are you asking for you or the OP in a different thread ?
If it's for you what camera do you have now and what ISO and subjetcs do you shoot. It makes a difference.
My good lady shoots with two crop sensor canons, theres a MASSIVE difference between the two, one is struggling at 800 iso, the other is fine at 3200 ISO. Thats why people are asking what camera and subjects..
 
West Camera said:
Unfortunately, inexperienced photographers become victimized by such marketing.
Click to expand...

I see you appear to have a particular angle on this debate, rather than asking a question for which you are seeking an answer. In such a situation as described I would suggest buying second hand, probably a Nikon D600/610 which can be had for little more than the cost of a new entry-level camera. That would provide good noise handling at a very cost effective price. There is no marketing seeking victims - this is a fairly straightforward technical issue, and Brexit isn't influencing used equipment prices much at the moment.
 
swanseamale47 said:
I'm a little confused here, are you asking for you or the OP in a different thread ?
If it's for you what camera do you have now and what ISO and subjetcs do you shoot. It makes a difference.
My good lady shoots with two crop sensor canons, theres a MASSIVE difference between the two, one is struggling at 800 iso, the other is fine at 3200 ISO. Thats why people are asking what camera and subjects..
Click to expand...
I was in a discussion yesterday on another site with an OP who was shooting with a Canon 1000D night photography. We were discussing his plan to buy a FF camera to deal with the short comings of his 1000D for night photography. I had mentioned this in my original question on the thread this conversation was moved from.
 
ancient_mariner said:
I see you appear to have a particular angle on this debate, rather than asking a question for which you are seeking an answer. In such a situation as described I would suggest buying second hand, probably a Nikon D600/610 which can be had for little more than the cost of a new entry-level camera. That would provide good noise handling at a very cost effective price. There is no marketing seeking victims - this is a fairly straightforward technical issue, and Brexit isn't influencing used equipment prices much at the moment.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I will pass that along.
 
Without knowing what the OP from somewhere else was shooting at, what processing has been done to his images and what/how he was actually shooting this is all going to be very vague......

It's also not actually an APSC vs FF thing. It's a technology thing. A 5D is full frame and I'd imagine the latest aps-c Canon is a better ISO performer.
 
West Camera said:
I had mentioned this in my original question on the thread this conversation was moved from.
Click to expand...

Frank, i think you're confused again... you'd never posted in the thread that this one was spun off from apart from the original post here...

You DID, along with another bunch of people, derail another thread about purchasing kit in the RoI with a load of Brexit crap that was removed from the thread. I'll not post a link to that thread, as everything apart from the on-topic stuff was culled, and you and everyone else were told to discuss political matters in Hot Topics or not at all.

Now, can you please stop trying to have discussions about stuff in other threads, and just ask clear questions in this one, preferably for yourself and not someone else on some other forum, and maybe, just maybe answer the questions that the other members have asked - i.e. what kit are you using, and what iso are you shooting at.

Because frankly, I'm getting sick and tired of dealing with the reports from your threads, and from cleaning up the various mess and chaos that ensues every time you apply fingertip to keyboard.
 
You can pick up a used Nikon D4 for under a grand thses days, saw one a few days ago. They are one of the better high ISO FF cameras.
Thing is it's not quite that simple, a lot depends on other factors, how well the images are exposed plays a big part in noise levels, faster lens mean you can shoot at lower ISO's to start with.... ect ect.
 
West Camera said:
I would like to ask a question within this thread which may be relevant. Any answers would be appreciated:

If you are shooting say with an APSC cropped sensor camera where you get lots of noise generated which would be better - move up to FF or try to address it through a software program like Topaz Denoise? And, at what point do you stop trying to deal with shortcomings with work arounds and just move on to the next and better camera?

MOD EDIT: THIS QUESTION ORIGINATED AS AN OFF-TOPIC POST IN A PRETTY MUCH UNRELATED THREAD, TO SAVE DERAILING THAT MORE INTERESTING THREAD, THIS HAS BEEN SPUN OFF INTO IT'S OWN LITTLE CORNER.
Click to expand...

When taking pictures in lower light I'd start by definitely trying to avoid boosting the exposures post capture. That may mean exposing to the right / slight over exposing or at least shooting with a cursor smack in the middle of the exposure scale and resisting any urge to move the exposure or fill light sliders to the right post capture. In fact I'd be looking to possibly reduce the exposure post capture. Next I'd run noise reduction or even selective noise reduction if my software allows that. The next thing I'd do is avoid pixel peeping and view the picture as a whole picture.

Before looking at new kit I think it's important to make sure that the kit is the issue, not me :D
 
Canon 1000D is a relatively old sensor in today's terms, a modern APSC sensor (X-Trans3 or 4, or latest Sony incarnations) will probably be at leaet two stops better with regard to noise. I don't have any experience of latest Canon APSC sensors with regain to high ISO noise, but these will be better as well.

My step daughers 1100D is pretty appaulling at ISO 3200 wheareas my Fuji X-T2 is not!!
 
I'd say that noise and sensor size are much less closely connected than they were, but an excellent low-noise sensor in APS-C format will be relatively expensive compared to an older FF sensor camera with inherently lower noise. Canon cameras may be an exception, since the sensor technology is still lagging a couple of generations over Nikon/Sony and possibly even Olympus & Panasonic.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top