Apple wins US court case over Samsung

joescrivens said:
you realise that right now there are lawsuits going on for almost every company in silicon valley.
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Of course.

joescrivens said:
is that the beginning of the downfall of all these companies or just apple? and if so why is it just the downfall of apple and not all the others?
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Joe... I'm not in the mood for any form of argument or confrontation.

My personal opinion is that I think Apple are starting to be run by the bean counters and lawyers and this is generally not good for a company that derives its market position through innovation. Again, my personal opinion is that it will be their downfall... I'll be quite happy for them if I'm wrong (they will, after all, be very rich no matter what), but it is still what I think today...

BTW: where's my dinner ;) :D
 
arad85 said:
Of course.

Joe... I'm not in the mood for any form of argument or confrontation.

My personal opinion is that I think Apple are starting to be run by the bean counters and lawyers and this is generally not good for a company that derives its market position through innovation. Again, my personal opinion is that it will be their downfall... I'll be quite happy for them if I'm wrong (they will, after all, be very rich no matter what), but it is still what I think today...

BTW: where's my dinner ;) :D
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Why is it argument and confrontation?

It's just debate.

Why is it one rule for apple and not for the others?

Of course there is no way for you to be right or wrong since they are the top. At some point they won't be the top, you can't be the top forever. They will drop and there will be no way to prove if you were right or wrong since it will happen regardless of whether you are right or wrong.
 
joesmith said:
This is pretty unbelievable. Apple makes product, another company makes product that is better, Apple doesn't like competition so sues other company for making rectangle product.

Instead of trying to kill competition with lawsuits, how about just make your products better?
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The fact that Apple subcontracted the manufacture of its displays to Samsung and then Samsung produced a "similar" product might have some bearing on it. One would think that, at best, is a little naughty.....
 
Do you think Sony will sue Samsung for making rectangular TV's?
 
icnoble said:
Do you think Sony will sue Samsung for making rectangular TV's?
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If Sony had a patent on it, and Samsung infringed it then why not?
 
joesmith said:
:thinking: Not too sure what you mean Graham?
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Apple subcontracted Samsung to produce the components for the ipad, now they have their own similar product :shrug:
 
But what difference does that really make? They didn't make all the components and wouldn't have known what the final product would look like, or even be. They wouldn't have known anything more about the tablet than any other company would have really.
 
In the interest of fairness I think the appeal should be heard in a Korean court
I wonder what the out come would be lol
 
joesmith said:
But what difference does that really make? They didn't make all the components and wouldn't have known what the final product would look like, or even be. They wouldn't have known anything more about the tablet than any other company would have really.
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I'd imagine after they were launched Samsung would have a pretty good idea what an Ipad looked like ;)
 
joesmith said:
But what difference does that really make? They didn't make all the components and wouldn't have known what the final product would look like, or even be. They wouldn't have known anything more about the tablet than any other company would have really.
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Unless you have seen the contract between them I'm not sure how you could know this as fact. There could have been all kinds of meetings showing their vision etc. you have no idea what they did or didn't know.

Secondly they would have absolutely had a better insight than any other company. The fact they would have had the heads up that apple were even making the device is inside knowledge others didn't have before them.

It seems like what you are saying is that apple sent Samsung an order for x million pieces of glass shaped in a certain way with no other knowledge whatsoever. It doesn't really work that way.
 
personally I don't think having a Korean electronic consumer goods manufacturer who is you biggest competitor to manufacture your cutting edge products was the brightest thing to do
 
My point was, I don't think they had any 'advantage' in being able to copy any design through making some parts for them.
My point did have some presumptions, I'll admit that. But, Apple are very secretive, they have people working on one thing not really knowing what it is for or knowing what else is being done (I'll try and dig up the source of that if you want). Hence, I'd have thought that they would not be willing to go into details about the product with Samsung, otherwise the details would just be leaked straight away.

Regardless, I just don't think it would have really made any difference to what Samsung have done.
 
joesmith said:
My point was, I don't think they had any 'advantage' in being able to copy any design through making some parts for them.
My point did have some presumptions, I'll admit that. But, Apple are very secretive, they have people working on one thing not really knowing what it is for or knowing what else is being done (I'll try and dig up the source of that if you want). Hence, I'd have thought that they would not be willing to go into details about the product with Samsung, otherwise the details would just be leaked straight away.

Regardless, I just don't think it would have really made any difference to what Samsung have done.
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I really can't see how you back that argument up. A company that are making a hardware part have an automatic insight over other companies that have no involvement. In its simplest form just even knowing that a device is even being made is an advantage.
 
odd jim said:
No I meant they are considering Windows 8, over Android as their devices OS due to the current uncertainty, as the Android OS itself was brought into the argument.
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Gotcha, and a very good point. Google has by and large left it's Android manufacturers to fend for themselves when a lot of the lawsuits have actually covered Android features.

Its highly unlikely MS would be as laid back to Apple getting stroppy to UI components it lays claim to without biting back and asserting rights to things not only iOS but also MacOS.

You are right that smaller makers might migrate over (after all, companies like HTC made their names building Windows phones) for the security against law suits.

When/if they decide to acquire the Nokia smartphone division (rumoured to be any day now) and get the Nokia patents it could well be an uncomfortable time for some of the other makers, especially the fruity one ;).
 
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Rebel t3i said:
In the interest of fairness I think the appeal should be heard in a Korean court
I wonder what the out come would be lol
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Considering last week a Korean court banned products from both Samsung and Apple I would expect it to be, like it is in the US, in accordance with the applicable law to the local juridiction ;)
 
joescrivens said:
So what you meant to say above was that we are now seeing the downfall of every company that is suing another over patent infringement.
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Yes :p Happy now?
 
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It really doesn't surprise me that Apple are doing this.

I've commented on other threads before, but a guy in the US took them to court over a macbook pro that failed due to a defective graphics chip - one that apple previously admitted was faulty. It wouldn't have cost them anything to repair as nVidia were replacing at no cost.

Apple sent two lawyers - who apparently lied in court to try and swing things their way just so that the customer didn't get anything.

I had a macbook pro that did the same thing - unfortunately I didn't know about this chips problems at the time, so the only laptop i've ever had fail (that cost me £1300) got dumped after 18 months.

The guys blog post about the trial - http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/
 
jokeruk said:
It really doesn't surprise me that Apple are doing this.

I've commented on other threads before, but a guy in the US took them to court over a macbook pro that failed due to a defective graphics chip - one that apple previously admitted was faulty. It wouldn't have cost them anything to repair as nVidia were replacing at no cost.

Apple sent two lawyers - who apparently lied in court to try and swing things their way just so that the customer didn't get anything.

I had a macbook pro that did the same thing - unfortunately I didn't know about this chips problems at the time, so the only laptop i've ever had fail (that cost me £1300) got dumped after 18 months.

The guys blog post about the trial - http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/
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That's the complete opposite of the majority of customers with falty products. Normally apple replace them without hesitation, many people on this very forum can give direct experience of this.
 
Is it a coincidence that in Korea Samsung wins the case but in the US Apple wins the case :shrug:
 
ziggy©;4920316 said:
Is it a coincidence that in Korea Samsung wins the case but in the US Apple wins the case :shrug:
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In Korea they both lost :D
 
joescrivens said:
That's the complete opposite of the majority of customers with falty products. Normally apple replace them without hesitation, many people on this very forum can give direct experience of this.
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I'm having the exact same issue with them BUT my 17" MBP is > 4.5 YEARS old. Looks like they might well refund the repair cost though but after 4 years and 9 months it's pushing it somewhat....

However in January I contacted customer support to tell them that the battery on my MBP had expanded AND that the PSU's power connector had fallen off. Even though the laptop was FOUR years old then they still replaced the PSU with a brand new one and sent me a voucher for half the price of the battery.

The reality is that Apple's customer service is better than pretty much any other computer company BUT none are perfect. The Nvidia chipset issue seriously upset Apple as it damaged relations with their customers on a flagship product.
 
ziggy© said:
Is it a coincidence that in Korea Samsung wins the case but in the US Apple wins the case :shrug:
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Different case, different patents.

Rumours are Apple are turning their attention to Google now due to the infringements in the Android OS. Now that WOULD be interesting.
 
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odd jim said:
Different case, different patents.

Rumours are Apple are turning their attention to Google now due to the infringements in the Android OS. Now that WOULD be interesting.
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It has started, but Google have done the attacking.

http://gigaom.com/mobile/android-th...le-u-s-gets-note-tablet-google-play-improves/
Details of the complaint are still developing, but Bloomberg notes these features as part of the suit:
location reminders, e-mail notification and phone/video players.

As Motorola is now a business unit of Google, this situation becomes even more interesting as Google hasn’t directly been involved with the growing number of smartphone patent battles between its Android hardware partners and Apple.
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And asking for a possible ban of Apple products into the USA.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/08/21/and-now-google-sues-apple/
The Wall Street Journal reports that Google/Motorola is alleging that Apple has infringed on seven of its patents, none of which are standard-essential. This distinction is important. As FOSS Patents explains, “The announcement comes six days before the target date for a final decision on the ITC investigation of Motorola’s first ITC complaint against Apple (July 23). A preliminary ruling by an ITC judge held Apple to infringe only one of Motorola’s asserted patents, which is a standard-essential one that raises competition issues and is, therefore, less likely to result in an actual import ban.”

If a patent is deemed to be “essential” to an “industry standard,” then, as Tim Cook told Walt Mossberg, there is just “an economic argument” about how much licensees have to pay the patent holder, but courts rarely grant injunctions for standard-essential patents.

On non-essential patents import bans can be and indeed are sometimes enforced. Indeed, Apple is asking for such a ban on Samsung products. And Google is asking for such a ban on Apple products.
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and I love this comment (from another source):

"I think this is actually a sizable win for Samsung. Why? It only cost $1 billion to become the #2 most profitable mobile company"


I've got an iPad2 and a Samsung Galaxy and I like them both.


Came across this which is interesting followed up by this. Haven't watched anymore.
 
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joescrivens said:
That's the complete opposite of the majority of customers with falty products. Normally apple replace them without hesitation, many people on this very forum can give direct experience of this.
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I'm just going on my personal experience - with a £1300 laptop that failed after 18 months and Apple just not wanting to know (even though they diagnosed it as the graphics chip - unfortunately I didn't know about the whole replacement thing at the time, and of course apple didn't bother to tell me). And another guy in the states who had the same problem and Apple probably spent tens of thousands of dollars to try and make sure he got *nothing* - even though they were in the wrong and it would have cost them nothing to sort the issue.

Not exactly a nice picture of a company when it's proved that they have tried to screw the customer over is it - whether or not others have had good experiences or not.
 
jokeruk said:
I'm just going on my personal experience - with a £1300 laptop that failed after 18 months and Apple just not wanting to know (even though they diagnosed it as the graphics chip - unfortunately I didn't know about the whole replacement thing at the time, and of course apple didn't bother to tell me). And another guy in the states who had the same problem and Apple probably spent tens of thousands of dollars to try and make sure he got *nothing* - even though they were in the wrong and it would have cost them nothing to sort the issue.

Not exactly a nice picture of a company when it's proved that they have tried to screw the customer over is it - whether or not others have had good experiences or not.
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Do you acknowledge that these instances are anomalies? Apple have a well documented superb customer support system. Stories like yours and the blog are few and far between, if you look around you'll hear more stories of the complete opposite.

Therefore these anomalies don't really paint a picture at all, since they are anomalies.
 
jokeruk said:
I'm just going on my personal experience - with a £1300 laptop that failed after 18 months and Apple just not wanting to know (even though they diagnosed it as the graphics chip - unfortunately I didn't know about the whole replacement thing at the time, and of course apple didn't bother to tell me). And another guy in the states who had the same problem and Apple probably spent tens of thousands of dollars to try and make sure he got *nothing* - even though they were in the wrong and it would have cost them nothing to sort the issue.

Not exactly a nice picture of a company when it's proved that they have tried to screw the customer over is it - whether or not others have had good experiences or not.
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I had to return an ipad as it had the light leak issue and in front of me in queue was a young girl who had dropped her iphone and smashed the screen. Obviously this wasn't a warranty issue but it was still repaired foc :thumbs:

As for my problem, they simply replaced the ipad there and then without a quibble. Compare this to being treated like **** (not to mention the 3 months I was left without it whilst they attempted a "repair") by PC World when I returned £700 worth of duff Acer laptop, I'd say the Apple after-sales experience is one of the best....
 
I've probably had more Apple kit than most but....

From

1 x Mac Mini
1 x Mac Pro
1 x iMac
3 x Macbook polycarbonate
2 x Macbook Pro 17" (just prior to unibody)
1 x Macbook Air 11" 2012
1 x 15" Macbook Pro retina
5 x iPhones
3 x iPads
2 x Airports
1 x Apple mouse
1 x Apple touchpad
1 x Apple white keyboard USB
1 x Apple white keyboard Wireless

That I can remember....

We've had (not in any order)

1) Mac Mini - case replaced due to power button failure (under warranty <1yr)
2) Apple mouse - replaced due to failure of little ball on top (under ext warranty <3yrs)
3) 17" MBP - motherboard failure (under ext warranty <3yrs)
4) 17" MBP - battery failure, it expanded and gave off hot gas which burnt my leg (under ext warranty <3yrs)
5) 17" MBP - battery failure, it expanded and failed (under ext warranty <3yrs)
6) 17" MBP - battery failure, it expanded and failed (replaced out of warranty!)
7) 17" MBP - PSU, end fell off (replaced out of warranty! 4 years old!)
8) 17" MBP - PSU, end fell off (replaced out of warranty! 4 years old!)
9) 13" Macbook, polycarbonate top/keyboard, cracking (replaced <1yr)
10) 13" Macbook, battery failure (replaced <1yr)
11) 13" Macbook, battery failure (replaced <1yr)
12) iPhone 3Gs, 1 pixel failed on screen (replaced on launch day when I got home to find fault)
13) iPhone 3Gs, software issues! (replaced <1yr)
14) iPhone headphones, fell to pieces after a week (replaced <1yr)

(1) Computer failed to power up. I had spilled a bottle of blue ink on top of it 4 months before (don't ask) but this had nothing to do with the fault. Apple replaced the bottom case despite the blue ink stain without hesitation.

(3) Computer failed to power up. No idea why this happened but took it into Apple store, did some shopping and collected it 3 hours later.

(6,8) When I bought the MBA in January I complained about my 17" MBPS's PSU and battery which were out of extended warranty but I felt that the faults were known issues and the two parts had been replaced 10 months previously - They replaced them both again!

Several battery replacements above. Apple will replace any Macbook battery with under 300 cycles and within 1 year of previous replacement (or more if you are lucky)

Currently one of the 17" MBPs has a failed Nvidia chipset. This is going to be re-balled next week. It is just over 4.5 years old but I have spoken to Apple and they are going to look at the step by step repair photos and invoices and if it is down to the chip de-soldering itself they are going to give me the cost of the repair as store credit. This is pretty good when it is closer to 5 years old than 4 years!

Got to say that some of these WOULD have been replaced by non Apple companies but I would doubt that quite a few of them would.

1 Most companies would have taken one look at the blue Mac Mini and said errr no.
4-6,10-11 Most companies don't warranty batteries over 6 months
12 Most companies say 1 dead pixel is not a warranty failure
14 Headphones not always covered
7-8 Out of warranty
9 This was a product recall but I still doubt most companies would replace a cracked top of a computer.
 
Yes, I would admit they are anomalies - but it happened to me, and I lost out to the tune of £1300 after 18 months.

I know things fail - although like I said, this is the only laptop/desktop to ever fail on me. However, it was the attitude towards me, and the experience of others (there are lots of examples of this particular issue) that I don't agree with.

Personally I do think apple produces good stuff - however I also think it's overpriced for the spec that you get (the computers rather than tablets), I just cannot bring myself to support a company that spends probably tens of thousands on trying to make sure one of their customers gets *nothing* after one of their devices fails - even though they admit there is a fault.

That particular blog post is from this year so it's not as if it's something that only happened once, a few years ago and they learned from it.
 
Classic quote, guess who: "We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas"
 
If this forces Samsung to drop their UI and stick to plain android I'd be very happy. After all, most of the "infringements" in question were samsung addons and the rectangle! Now apple please sue HTC for making rubbish phones
 
gman said:
Classic quote, guess who: "We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas"
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It is this that I find the most ironic bit of the whole thing. But I only ever get accused of being anti-Apple around here, so obviously my opinions don't count ;)
 
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