Brazo
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And herein lies the main difference between win and mac based laptops, the OS. The hardware is identical.
All other differences are cost, support, aesthetics etc
Apple Mac versus PC - Grappling the Nettle
- Thread starter afasoas
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All other differences are cost, support, aesthetics etc
Neilc28
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Yeah, but it comes with MacOS, not really an advantage is it.....
neil_g
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Probably the only case where a mac is a must have. Final cut.
Chappers
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There are advantages and disadvantages for both PC and mac systems. It really is down to personal choice. Some applications are OS specific like Final Cut, but Lightroom are Photoshop are cross platform. They work the same whichever OS you are using. You pays your money you takes your choice . I work on a Mac, mainly because of Final Cut. But I also use Lightroom and Photoshop. If I had to work on a PC , personally I wouldn't go down the Premier route, I'd opt for DaVinci Resolve , but again that's personal. Is a Mac more expensive yes it can be. I personally cant see the advantage of the touch bar on the New MacBook pro. So don't buy one with it. Mac's have always been expensive, and probably always will be. Can you see an advantage? If so buy one if not don't. They do hold there value, but I don't think most people consider resale value when making a purchase.
Apple stores have really pushed the product into the pubic awareness. Plus you get a decent demo,if you need it.
Apple stores have really pushed the product into the pubic awareness. Plus you get a decent demo,if you need it.
and for apple care, the least hassle of all product warranties.
Brom
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Oh I dunno...can't remember the last time my MacBook crashed, but my wife's windows 10 laptop...now that's another story.
ancient_mariner
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Citation required - please show me your evidence, because my experience is different.
Are you mental? Lots of surveys show this.
Don't need to go digging up evidence for you, google it if you can be bothered.
neil_g
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As mentioned the Dell on site cover is most certainly comparable.
Neilc28
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Seriously?!?! That comes across as extremely arrogant, just because you and other people have good experience of Applecare doesn't mean to say everyone does, such as Dell Prosupport which I have had nothing but fantastic experiences with but does not mean to say that it is universally awesome.
onomatopoeia
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Having experienced Dell NBD prosupport on my precision m3800 laptop, I have nothing but praise. The machine died (no screen, just a beep sequence when powered on), I contacted them, next morning someone turns up and replaces both the screen and the motherboard without testing to see which was broken. He explained it as "If I do both while it's apart it's bound to work so Dell just send both bits to get you going again as fast as possible". No questions, didn't matter that I am the second owner and the first lived in a different country.
ancient_mariner
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One is return to base only, while many others offer to repair next business day onsite. While having to take a computer to a shop who will send it away for a week will suit some better, there is no comparison for most people.
PaulButler
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Wishful thinking
ancient_mariner
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Wishful thinking
Sadly you're probably right. While it's nice to suggest they are both equivalent, each type has its strengths and weaknesses, and different individuals have different live-or-die issues making them very different for each owner. All to do essentially similar things.
ABTog
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Everyone does have different requirements and "live-or-die issues". Budget it my biggest issue.
I don't need my home computer to earn money, but I also don't have much disposable income to buy a computer. As such I've been running a secondhand Dell desktop (which is about 6 years old) and finally I'm replacing it with another budget option.
I've looked at the cost of replacing it with a good/decent spec budget desktop and so looked at the cheapest end of the Mac range.
So looking at cost and spec:
Mac Mini
1.4Ghz Intel i5 Dual Core (cpu benchmark score 2104)
4GB RAM
500GB Hard drive
Builtin Intel HD 5000 Graphics
Very small neat package, but no room for internal expansion
£479
PC, put together from components to keep costs down
AMD X8 Core FX-8320 3.5Ghz - 8 cores (cpu benchmark score 8010)
16GB DDR3 RAM
128GB SSD
2TB HDD
Builtin ATI Radeon HD3000 Graphics
Mini Tower Case, ie bigger than a Mac Mini, but more space for future expansion
£390
Note: I already have the SSD and HDD, so those will be simply moved over from the old system, so you can take £100 off that cost, meaning it's actually costing me £290.
£290 wouldn't get me much more than a very old Mac Mini, perhaps only the early Intel model.
If I wanted to up the spec of the Mac Mini to include 16GB RAM and a 1TB Fusion drive it would cost £974, but it would still only have a 1.4Ghz i5 processor.
Obviously there's a difference in price. The Mac price does includes the OS, my PC price doesn't, but I already have a Windows licence so that's not costing anything. The PC doesn't have any warranty other than the manufacturers on the parts. I refuse to pay extra for special cover. I worked briefly in the computer retail industry and discovered that extra warranties are where they make the most profit and where the sales person (if in store) make their biggest commission, so I won't pay extra for cover on principle.
The Mac Mini does come in a very small, nice looking box, which is quite tempting, but that comes with it's own associated issues.
Most Macs, have pretty much no user servicible parts, so you have to get them to fix it if it goes wrong hence why Apple Care is a big part of the equation. But I know that if my PC's power supply dies, I can buy a replacement and fit it for less than £50. Equally upgrading memory or hard drive at a later date is tricky and costly with a Mac and cheaper with a PC.
There was also the mention of lifetime cost, some might say that a Mac lasts longer, so the per annum cost is lower, but certainly my experience with my current Dell desktop is that it's lasted very well for a 6 year old. I've spent nothing on keeping it running other expanding the hard drive space, which you would have to do no matter whether you're running a PC or a Mac. (The SSD wasn't a requirement to keep it running, just a nicety).
As I am able to put a PC together myself, I'm happy to do this to save money. Even if I wasn't, I could buy a pre-built version for an equivalent price to that basic Mac Mini (ie less that £500) but the PC would still have more grunt.
But as with all purchase decisions there is an element of subjectivity and personal preference.
I'm not anti-Apple, I have owned one, but I don't get on with MacOS, I find it doesn't work for me and with the high initial cost of purchase, I can't justify it just for pretty hardware (which is pointless anyway as my desktop lives out of sight).
For reliability, I can't remember the last time my PC crashed, even if it is a tad slow. In my work environment where computers are used constantly (ie left on 24/7) and pushed to their limits, I have seen PCs crash, but likewise the Macs I use at work (MBP and MacMinis) also crash/freeze or lose connection to various connected devices, so neither is that much better than the other as far as I can see.
Looking at the bare facts of cost and spec, in both this example and the OP, the PC does seem to win. But if you work better with MacOS (due to your personal preference or due to software availability) instead of Windows, then you will likely find the money required to buy a Mac. Some people might even say that they'd rather have a lower spec Mac than use a cheaper higher spec PC just because that's what works better for them. That's everyone's right to choose what they want to use.
If for you the cost is worth it, fair enough. Thankfully we live in a world where you can choose and there are many suppliers to choose from.
@ABTog ... I'm not trying to argue that for you Windows machine isn't going to be cheaper... but your cost comparison is unfair to the Apple option as you have excluded the cost of a Windows licence* which at retail price takes the price to close to equal to the Mac Mini or perhaps even higher depending which version of Windows you need. So the "bare facts" as you call them don't say Windows PC wins unless you bias the comparison to exclude a major cost, though I will give you that the spec (16GB vs 4GB and the storage) is better in the case of Windows option.
So choose what you like, but please be realistic in your cost comparisons (as the OP is)...
Note * according to your EULA you can't reuse your Windows licence from your Dell on a new build PC.
So choose what you like, but please be realistic in your cost comparisons (as the OP is)...
Note * according to your EULA you can't reuse your Windows licence from your Dell on a new build PC.
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I think you have to add £150 for Win 10 Professional to keep it comparable plus something for the "free" included software.
ancient_mariner
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He did point out that an equivalent spec Mac mini would cost £974 and STILL be running a 1.4GHz dual core processor vs £390 + £120 for a W10 license. Just seen Neil's pricing - even £60 is a relative bargain.
Of course to use the OEM license you can't be building a computer for yourself...
Microsoft say... "If you are building a system for your personal use or installing an additional operating system in a virtual machine, you will need to purchase a full version of Windows 10, available in FPP. Windows 10, Windows 8.1, and Windows 7 system builder software does not permit personal use, and is intended only for preinstallation on customer systems that will be sold to end users.*"
...but who worries about license conditions?
neil_g
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i guess you could get a copy of 7 or 8 OEM and then upgrade. seems they changed the rules on OEM for personal use after 8.
https://www.microsoft.com/OEM/en/licensing/sblicensing/Pages/windows-licensing-for-personal-use.aspx
8 pro 64 bit oem £77.73 on amazon
neil_g
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lets face it the whole OEM change is a bit of a farce. historically they've always allowed activation even upon changing machines (even using their telephone service), presumably they were always just happy it was a licenced copy.
say you built your own machine on 7 or 8 OEM, you then upgraded to 10 on the free update. does that mean you're now running 10 OEM outside of the EULA?
say you built your own machine on 7 or 8 OEM, you then upgraded to 10 on the free update. does that mean you're now running 10 OEM outside of the EULA?
Well you can get a copy of 8 OEM and upgrade, but not 7 or 8.1 (see the quote from Microsoft above). They changed the rule for 7, relaxed them for 8 and tightened them again for 8.1.
neil_g
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wordpad.
got no suggestions for keynote mind you, but then i even hate powerpoint.
edit: we could offset the extra costs of office 365 (£60/year) against the ability to upgrade your own machine and increase its lifespan
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neil_g
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gah, talk about moving the goalposts.
shouldnt be too surprised after they randomly changed their SQL licencing in a VM environment. that was a headache.
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onomatopoeia
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My experience of this forum suggests that many photographers don't care about copyright and licensing, unless it pertains to their own photographs.
ABTog
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I have a Windows 7 licence, which is not tied to the Dell. So I will be using that and the Dell is being retired. If and when I want to upgrade to Windows 10, I will pay for it.
My cost comparisons are the costs for me. I don't need to spend money on a windows licence because I have one. I did mention it:
If someone else was to go down the same route, but didn't have a Windows licence, then yes, they would have to add that. Yes, once you add the cost of a retail version of Windows it does put the price up to the same sort of price as the Mac Mini, but you're still getting more performance for the money.
The OP comparisons are for the type of product (ie high spec laptop) that they are wanting and the cost for them. My comparison is for the type of product (ie low budget desktop without a monitor) I want and the cost for me to buy it.
People want different computers and they want them to do different things or have better support for the professional user, that's up to them to decide what's important to them.
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I may be taking something away from what you and the OP were saying though ... but the way you present your "comparison" it speaks that you were trying to make a bigger point than what is best for you and what something cost for you ... the Mac vs PC debate usually ends up this way ... with the "Windows" side talking about price and presenting price comparisons which (in many cases) are comparing oranges to apples.
When people start talking alternatives to MacMini's for example ... they never take into account the form factor in their comparisons. Look at the price of something like an Asus Vivo and the prices are not dissimilar though yes Apple probably still loose out. However if you are the kind of person who upgrades often, the residual value of the Apple hardware is much higher - its like buying a Golf vs an Astra.
ancient_mariner
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The form factor of the MM only becomes important if you actually want a tiny computer, and I suspect one could buy a NUC with more performance for a similar price if that was what was needed. Thing is, for ABTog Apple don't offer an equivalent to what he wants, so in order to buy Apple he has to make do with an alternative that's compromised by its design to be inferior to the PC equivalent.
Apple do not offer anything for the conventional mid-range desktop user: only a microbox, an all-in-one or a super-high cost flagship. Undoubtedly this is all by design, but it does mean that there's a substantial tranche of people who would have to compromise in some way to have an Apple machine. It isn't a problem if you require an all-in-one, but most of us want the equivalent of an i5 quad with 16GB RAM, 256GB of SSD, 2TB HDD all in a nice chunky case with DVD drive, several USB ports, 3.5mm audio jack/optical output to feed the hifi, cable networking, great cooling and easy access to perform upgrades. It's not a case of them offering us a benefit with form factor, but that they don't have an appropriate product in the marketplace, and the only way to stay apple is either to give up performance or spend much more than is necessary.
If you want to use car equivalents, if you need an estate car then why should you buy a Smart, or a 2 seater coupe, or a supercar, because those are what Apple have available.
Apple do not offer anything for the conventional mid-range desktop user: only a microbox, an all-in-one or a super-high cost flagship. Undoubtedly this is all by design, but it does mean that there's a substantial tranche of people who would have to compromise in some way to have an Apple machine. It isn't a problem if you require an all-in-one, but most of us want the equivalent of an i5 quad with 16GB RAM, 256GB of SSD, 2TB HDD all in a nice chunky case with DVD drive, several USB ports, 3.5mm audio jack/optical output to feed the hifi, cable networking, great cooling and easy access to perform upgrades. It's not a case of them offering us a benefit with form factor, but that they don't have an appropriate product in the marketplace, and the only way to stay apple is either to give up performance or spend much more than is necessary.
If you want to use car equivalents, if you need an estate car then why should you buy a Smart, or a 2 seater coupe, or a supercar, because those are what Apple have available.
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ABTog
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I'm not comparing high end laptops with MacBooks or high end desktops with the Mac Pro because I don't have the budget. Even the cheapest MacBook (Air 13inch) is £949, the cheapest iMac is £1049 and the cheapest Mac Pro is £2999, ten times my budget.
I did mention the form factor of the MacMini and the size of the PC. I only chose the MacMini to compare to because it's the cheapest desktop that Apple make, I didn't choose it because of it's size. Apple only produce 2 types of (screen-less) desktop, the Mac Pro (way out of budget) and the Mac Mini, neither is a direct comparison on size, but the Mini is closer in budget. The Mac Mini size has a few points against it for lack of easy upgrades.
Residual value is an interesting point, plenty of differing opinions there too depending on your situation. If you run a moderately size business you tend to upgrade more often but you write off the computer after 2-3 years anyway and aren't bothered about resale value. If you are a freelancer using your computer for your job then it's part of your "cost of doing business", again you'll be writing off the tax and upgrading as often as business needs demand but you might be more interested in whether you can get any money back from the old one. For an individual, you may upgrade often or you might keep your computer for years, so resale value may or may not be of concern.
I'm buying my computer to use it. If it costs £300 initially and it lasts for 3 years (average lifespan for technology these days), then it's cost me £100 per year. If you spend £600 on a computer (Mac or PC) and it lasts 3 years, it costs me £200 per year. If you use it for longer, it brings the cost per year down.
The Golf vs Astra resale comparison is quite valid. VWs cost more to buy than their Vauxhall equivalents and their resale value is higher.
Ha ha. Like that, probably because I have an estate. It fits my needs. I'll admire the fast sports cars, but until my budget changes and I no longer need the space....
The Mac Mini was in consideration when I started my comparisons, but once I started comparing specs and costs, it was no longer an option for me.
Everyone has to make their own purchasing decision, if you have can afford a Mac and it suits your needs then why not. It's never going to be unsubjective though as people have preferences regarding design, user interface, etc. Just like cameras.
neil_g
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i might start referring to my pc as a volvo t5-r estate. built like a tank, masses of uses and getting on a bit but still pretty damn pokey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_850#850_T-5R
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_850#850_T-5R
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Well you've hit the nail there I do agree.
Apple offer a choice between a supermini, a coupe and a luxury 4x4 ... if you want a workhorse estate don't look to Apple.
TopBanana
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And much uglier (but cheaper) than an Audi RS5 Avant - I guess this is working well as a PC/Mac comparisoni might start referring to my pc as a volvo t5-r estate. built like a tank, masses of uses and getting on a bit but still pretty damn pokey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_850#850_T-5R
PaulButler
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mmmmm the only problem I have with that analogy is what constitutes tyres on a pc/laptop.mac ??? 'cos the T5R went through tyres like they were made of chocolatei might start referring to my pc as a volvo t5-r estate. built like a tank, masses of uses and getting on a bit but still pretty damn pokey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_850#850_T-5R
D
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And much uglier (but cheaper) than an Audi RS5 Avant - I guess this is working well as a PC/Mac comparison
It is a good comparison, PC is for people who care about performance, and Mac is for people who care about how shiny the outside of the box is
ancient_mariner
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And much uglier (but cheaper) than an Audi RS5 Avant - I guess this is working well as a PC/Mac comparison
The Avant is still a PC, but with an overclocked, water cooled i7 & 32GB DDR4 RAM instead of an astra with a celeron and 2GB. The point is that Apple don't do a big, functional estate.
