Anyone here on strike tomorrow?

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ding76uk said:
What job do you have where you "work with more teachers than anyone else on this forum?"
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I work with schools, a recent school paid for me to come in for educational consultancy to work through government documents and to prepare for their ofsted inspection.

For all those who say I speak rubbish, On average I visit 2 schools a week and have door 8 years. I work with the senior management team, head or whole staff. I do a lot of looking at the effectiveness of teaching and often hear the phrase 'they are retiring soon when talking about teachers with poor performance.

There might be procedures in place,but you will find that a lot of heads find it difficult to get rid of troublesome members of staff.

I am not saying that their aren't hardworking teachers, but there are more who don't work hard and are lazy teachers who are far far far from effective.

There are lots of jobs available in teaching. It might not be in your local area,but there are lots due to the number of older teachers retiring each year.

The salary I was refering to was the London wages and although might only go up to 36,000 out of London without responsibilities, it is hard not to take on these responsibilities as it is expected of you, so they will end up on more.

Do not think I am nieve when it comes to teachers. My mum was a teacher for 30 years and my wife was an assistant head. My company and my whole life is education. I have a dim of teachers because I come across so many bad teachers. My wife cannot believe the things said to me by teachers or the lack of knowledge/sense some teachers have.

You may be a good teacher or your partner may be a good teacher, you may be at an excellent school, do not be fooled in to thinking all schools are like this.
 
Dale_d3100 said:
I work with schools, a recent school paid for me to come in for educational consultancy to work through government documents and to prepare for their ofsted inspection.

For all those who say I speak rubbish, On average I visit 2 schools a week and have door 8 years. I work with the senior management team, head or whole staff. I do a lot of looking at the effectiveness of teaching and often hear the phrase 'they are retiring soon when talking about teachers with poor performance.

There might be procedures in place,but you will find that a lot of heads find it difficult to get rid of troublesome members of staff.

I am not saying that their aren't hardworking teachers, but there are more who don't work hard and are lazy teachers who are far far far from effective.

There are lots of jobs available in teaching. It might not be in your local area,but there are lots due to the number of older teachers retiring each year.

The salary I was refering to was the London wages and although might only go up to 36,000 out of London without responsibilities, it is hard not to take on these responsibilities as it is expected of you, so they will end up on more.

Do not think I am nieve when it comes to teachers. My mum was a teacher for 30 years and my wife was an assistant head. My company and my whole life is education. I have a dim of teachers because I come across so many bad teachers. My wife cannot believe the things said to me by teachers or the lack of knowledge/sense some teachers have.

You may be a good teacher or your partner may be a good teacher, you may be at an excellent school, do not be fooled in to thinking all schools are like this.
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I'm sorry to be a pedant, but every academic (teacher, university lecturer etc.) I've ever met has placed high value on attention to detail, especially on things such as grammar and spelling :)
 
I aplogise I am using the android app and not double checking my spelling.
 
Dale. How do you mother and wife react when you say to them:

Teachers have it easy?
 
Dale_d3100 said:
I work with schools, a recent school paid for me to come in for educational consultancy to work through government documents and to prepare for their ofsted inspection.

For all those who say I speak rubbish, On average I visit 2 schools a week and have door 8 years. I work with the senior management team, head or whole staff. I do a lot of looking at the effectiveness of teaching and often hear the phrase 'they are retiring soon when talking about teachers with poor performance.

There might be procedures in place,but you will find that a lot of heads find it difficult to get rid of troublesome members of staff.

I am not saying that their aren't hardworking teachers, but there are more who don't work hard and are lazy teachers who are far far far from effective.

There are lots of jobs available in teaching. It might not be in your local area,but there are lots due to the number of older teachers retiring each year.

The salary I was refering to was the London wages and although might only go up to 36,000 out of London without responsibilities, it is hard not to take on these responsibilities as it is expected of you, so they will end up on more.

Do not think I am nieve when it comes to teachers. My mum was a teacher for 30 years and my wife was an assistant head. My company and my whole life is education. I have a dim of teachers because I come across so many bad teachers. My wife cannot believe the things said to me by teachers or the lack of knowledge/sense some teachers have.

You may be a good teacher or your partner may be a good teacher, you may be at an excellent school, do not be fooled in to thinking all schools are like this.
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That's not when I question you. Your comment all teachers have to pay in to a pension is rubbish.

Those who have it easiest are the ones who come into school sell their services, usually very poorly, and then leave people to it walking away with a big fat cheque.

See how easy it is to tar everyone with the same brush? To back this up I have had some wonderful people work with me in schools, and I have had people paid a nice sum to teach photoshop to the art staff who "Only knew how to use elements, and I struggle with that".

You can tar everyone with the same brush, but it doesn't work. If it is so easy to being a teacher, why not do it yourself? Possibly because you get paid a lot more to go into schools and tell them what to do I would guess.
 
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Richard King said:
maybe the union leaders should have a go at running the country and balancing the books...

Whoops, forgot, we had Labour in last time for a couple of terms... and look where they left us. Don't forget it was Labour that raided everyone's pensions... I don't hear the union leaders moaning too much about that (did they forget)?

Whoops I forgot, that's "old" Labour. New Labour partially ditched the unions.. I wonder why?

By the way, what does your average union leader earn, and what is their pension arrangement?

Going back a few years, does any one remember the winter of 1978/1979?

The basic problem here is that as a country, and as individuals, we have all lived beyond our means for too long. On top of that, we have let our interpretation of the stupid European legislation allow other countries to flourish and make stuff (Germany) while we roll over and send contracts for our own trains planes and boats abroad. Not so many years ago, our order books were full, the bank balance was good and growth came internally and externally. Why does Germany have so much money - because it still makes stuff> Saying that, the German Pension system needed massive re-alignment. Ironically. Germany is still doing well, despite the combination of East and West Germany
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The government after 1979 set about reducing the power and influence of the unions to the extent where it was easy for manufacturing companies to cheaply and easily exit the UK and relocate in other low cost producer countries. Germany, by contrast continues to have very strong unions with representation on the boards of these companies. As a result it is very difficult for a company to relocate away from Germany and hence they continue to have a very strong manufacturing base versus the UK.

During the same period (1979 onwards) we as a nation were encouraged to gain personal assets and wealth and crave 'loadsa money' and the culture of easy credit began. This ultimately led to a country which has lived on debt and beyond its means.

So to take a more balanced view and one which is less of a party political braodcast, the actions of both political parties have contributed to the position we are in today as a nation - no party has covered themselves in any glory.
 
Definition of a consultant.........

'Someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time' ;)
 
I am not on strike....yet !

Our union (fbu, fire brigades union) has not balloted for it yet but rest assured if and when they do, I will be supporting it 110% !!!
 
Ruffy said:
I am not on strike....yet !

Our union (fbu, fire brigades union) has not balloted for it yet but rest assured if and when they do, I will be supporting it 110% !!!
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FBU had a large contingent out in Bristol today.
 
They agree with me.

My mum took her money out of her pension when we were born and only paid in for 12 years after this. She has a £6,000 a year pension for the rest of her life. She loves it.

My mum agrees with me on how teachers are and it gets her very angry. She gets on her soapbox....

My wife can't believe the stuff teachers say and do. she is shocked but she has seen first hand what they are like when she has done work for the company.
 
gramps said:
FBU had a large contingent out in Bristol today.
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I know they are supporting others who have gone out but not on strike themselves !
 
Dale_d3100 said:
I work with schools, a recent school paid for me to come in for educational consultancy to work through government documents and to prepare for their ofsted inspection.

For all those who say I speak rubbish, On average I visit 2 schools a week and have door 8 years. I work with the senior management team, head or whole staff. I do a lot of looking at the effectiveness of teaching and often hear the phrase 'they are retiring soon when talking about teachers with poor performance.

There might be procedures in place,but you will find that a lot of heads find it difficult to get rid of troublesome members of staff.

I am not saying that their aren't hardworking teachers, but there are more who don't work hard and are lazy teachers who are far far far from effective.

There are lots of jobs available in teaching. It might not be in your local area,but there are lots due to the number of older teachers retiring each year.

The salary I was refering to was the London wages and although might only go up to 36,000 out of London without responsibilities, it is hard not to take on these responsibilities as it is expected of you, so they will end up on more.

Do not think I am nieve when it comes to teachers. My mum was a teacher for 30 years and my wife was an assistant head. My company and my whole life is education. I have a dim of teachers because I come across so many bad teachers. My wife cannot believe the things said to me by teachers or the lack of knowledge/sense some teachers have.

You may be a good teacher or your partner may be a good teacher, you may be at an excellent school, do not be fooled in to thinking all schools are like this.
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Equally don't be fooled into thinking all schools or teachers are bad because you spend more of your time dealing with schools in need of help. In my experience, consultants are normally employed by those who need help and not those who dont and normally those that need help are the minority.

I am amazed at the anti-teacher rhetoric in this thread !!

The question is, do we get value for money from what they do and are paid - the answer I would suggest is yes. Without education, we would be individually capable of very little and the country would be a 3rd world country. Teacher input value into society without doubt unlike many of the quangos or bizarrely job titled politically correct 'jobs' within local government.

Their holiday and working hours are part of a package. They do not get company cars or private health insurance or staff discounts like many other employees do. As university graduates in a profession adding value to the nation, their total package is no better than many graduate jobs and they probably do not have as lucrative a career path as could be available in the private sector.

In any profession and walk of life there are people who excel at their job, there are those content to do the job well, and those who underperform. Teachers do not deserve to be singled out in this regard.

The above is said as a private sector worker with children currently in education (with some great teachers).
 
ding76uk said:
That's not when I question you. Your comment all teachers have to pay in to a pension is rubbish.

Those who have it easiest are the ones who come into school sell their services, usually very poorly, and then leave people to it walking away with a big fat cheque.

See how easy it is to tar everyone with the same brush? To back this up I have had some wonderful people work with me in schools, and I have had people paid a nice sum to teach photoshop to the art staff who "Only knew how to use elements, and I struggle with that".

You can tar everyone with the same brush, but it doesn't work. If it is so easy to being a teacher, why not do it yourself? Possibly because you get paid a lot more to go into schools and tell them what to do I would guess.
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Fyi it is often cheaper to get us in instead of someone from the lea. We often have to correct incorrect out of date advice from advisors (with proof from the government).

I often spend longer in schools than I am paid for and spend time teaching them basic skills in office.

I didn't want to be a teacher as I had worked in schools and already experienced bad teachers. I now spend time helping schools and my main area of focus is inclusion and Sen.
 
Surely you would have made the most difference in schools though, but hey you know better than teachers even though you have no direct experience of being one.

Notice you do not deny you get paid a lot more than the average teacher salary for giving your advice. I would wager that going into a school and telling them how to correct paperwork on SEN and inclusion is a lot easier than teaching 6 periods in an urban setting with pupils who have violent tendencies.
 
Dale_d3100 said:
They agree with me.

My mum took her money out of her pension when we were born and only paid in for 12 years after this. She has a £6,000 a year pension for the rest of her life. She loves it.

My mum agrees with me on how teachers are and it gets her very angry. She gets on her soapbox....

My wife can't believe the stuff teachers say and do. she is shocked but she has seen first hand what they are like when she has done work for the company.
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Why do they get angry and on their soapboxes when they are teachers themselves? Are they shouting and lecturing each other?

How come your wife gets angry at what teaches say and do? Isn't she angry about what she says and does too?
 
joescrivens said:
Why do they get angry and on their soapboxes when they are teachers themselves? Are they shouting and lecturing each other?

How come your wife gets angry at what teaches say and do? Isn't she angry about what she says and does too?
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They must be the only two decent teachers in the whole wide world.....he's very lucky indeed to be involved with both of them!!

Seriously.....what are the odds?!! :eek:
 
ding76uk said:
Surely you would have made the most difference in schools though, but hey you know better than teachers even though you have no direct experience of being one.

Notice you do not deny you get paid a lot more than the average teacher salary for giving your advice. I would wager that going into a school and telling them how to correct paperwork on SEN and inclusion is a lot easier than teaching 6 periods in an urban setting with pupils who have violent tendencies.
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I did not mention my pay, but I earn less than a teacher would do after 10 years of teaching. My wife was earning £42,000 at the age of 35 as an assistant head. I am quite a bit under this.

I do not correct them on paperwork, we are involved with school policies and procedures and train the staff.
 
Defiance said:
Equally don't be fooled into thinking all schools or teachers are bad because you spend more of your time dealing with schools in need of help. In my experience, consultants are normally employed by those who need help and not those who dont and normally those that need help are the minority.
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A large number of schools that use us are rated as outstanding by ofsted, and our product directly effects how they are judged in some of the areas. Some authorities have standardised on our product across all schools. We are used in Beacon schools (not sure if that project is still going on] and centres of excellence where teachers go to learn new initiatives and methods.

So as you see we work with a large range of schools.
 
Defiance said:
In any profession and walk of life there are people who excel at their job, there are those content to do the job well, and those who underperform. Teachers do not deserve to be singled out in this regard.
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Absolutely, I'm sure the performance of teachers falls within a bell curve just like employees within any other profession but is it right that students should have to be burdened with teachers who aren't able to teach?

Teachers are there to do the job of teaching. If they can't produce the results they should pursue a different career. I don't understand why the under-performance of teachers should be treated any differently to under-performing employees in any other industry. If anything I'd say it should be a priority to ensure future generations receive the very best standard of teaching they can, not just settling for current staff and being unable to remove them from their job because all they're guilty of is not being able to teach very well and nothing more serious.

I'll repeat that I am very aware the general standard of teaching is good and there a few teachers that are below par, I just think those below par teachers shouldn't be allowed to continue holding back pupil's education.
 
AS a pensioner myself I can't see how anyone can live off a state pension of just over £100 a week. What is worse is that if you continue to work past pension age your pension is deducted from your personal allowance. This is what needs to be addressed as well but I don't see any complaints about it because pensioners can't strike.
I would advise anyone to start taking out a private pension because you will be on the streets with a state one

Observation

Union leaders carried on working during the strike and got paid for the day!!!! Thats how much they are in tune with their members.

Realspeed
 
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TriggerHappy said:
Absolutely, I'm sure the performance of teachers falls within a bell curve just like employees within any other profession but is it right that students should have to be burdened with teachers who aren't able to teach?

Teachers are there to do the job of teaching. If they can't produce the results they should pursue a different career. I don't understand why the under-performance of teachers should be treated any differently to under-performing employees in any other industry. If anything I'd say it should be a priority to ensure future generations receive the very best standard of teaching they can, not just settling for current staff and being unable to remove them from their job because all they're guilty of is not being able to teach very well and nothing more serious.

I'll repeat that I am very aware the general standard of teaching is good and there a few teachers that are below par, I just think those below par teachers shouldn't be allowed to continue holding back pupil's education.
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From reading this thread, those within the teaching industry have said that poor performers are eventually moved on. I imagine though, that like any other industry, these poor performers are able to find employment elsewhere in the same profession with other schools many times over before becoming unemployable. The net effect is that the problem only gets moved around in circles and thus many schools will continue to have the bell curve.

I also don't imagine that poor performers are left alone by those above them and would imagine that like any good employer, a school will try and engage and develop poor performers rather than having a hire and fire culture which would create turmoil and insecurity in schools and make teaching an even less attractive route of employment.

Schooling is a results based business now with ever increasing scrutiny. It will become harder for poor performers to escape attention

In a perfect world, every employer will have only high performing staff. The reality is there will inevitably always be a mix whether we like it or not.
 
Dale_d3100 said:
A large number of schools that use us are rated as outstanding by ofsted, and our product directly effects how they are judged in some of the areas. Some authorities have standardised on our product across all schools. We are used in Beacon schools (not sure if that project is still going on] and centres of excellence where teachers go to learn new initiatives and methods.

So as you see we work with a large range of schools.
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If I read this right you are saying that you work with high performing schools and not schools that simply have fancy labels attached.

By definition, schools cannot be high performing without good teachers and good management unless headteachers have a magic wand or the children educate themselves. I doubt very much that these good teachers are the minority in these schools. As said above, there will always be a mix of performance but that is not unique in any way to the teaching industry or something to only beat up teachers over.
 
Dale_d3100 said:
I aplogise I am using the android app and not double checking my spelling.
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I feel your pain. You'd think I was a five-year-old with the way my spelling comes out :LOL:

Despite coming in with an inflammatory first post, don't hate Dale for his views ad someone who exposed to schooling, regardless of how good they are.

This thread has turned into a tit-for-tat argument about who is worse off, who knows most about education, and who has a right to comment because they know someone in education. Some of you would argue with yourselves in an empty room. What is the point in trying to price each other wrong? Oneupmanship is vile in real life and even more distasteful on a forum where everyone turns into an expert.
 
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Defiance said:
If I read this right you are saying that you work with high performing schools and not schools that simply have fancy labels attached.

By definition, schools cannot be high performing without good teachers and good management unless headteachers have a magic wand or the children educate themselves. I doubt very much that these good teachers are the minority in these schools. As said above, there will always be a mix of performance but that is not unique in any way to the teaching industry or something to only beat up teachers over.
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Teachers aren't really inspected these days, only a few in each school are looked at. A good ofsted result is down to the head selling the school to ofsted.

I spend time with teachers and see their attitudes towards their jobs. It is not based on going to 1 school and deciding all schools are like this.
 
Defiance said:
By definition, schools cannot be high performing without good teachers and good management unless headteachers have a magic wand or the children educate themselves.
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Surely it is purely down to his services? No wonder he is in such high demand!

People say they want only outstanding people to teach future generations, yet you charge them a 27k debt to train, freeze their pay for 2-3 years and then make them contribute more to their pensions when they get a 1% pay rise (effectively cutting their salary by 2%). Making them work til 70. Can you not see the irony in this whole thing?

Ask a 70 year old how it feels chasing one grandchild around all day, let alone a class of 30.
 
Well, my wife went on strike and I didn't.

Now in my public sector job, over the last 12 or so years, I've been spat at, verbaly abused, bitten (by dogs), followed around estates by groups of lads, found dead bodies, walked into rooms filled with blooded syringes/excrement/soiled nappies, interviewed some very troubled people, an other 'stuff.

My wife's had simular, once, while pregnant, she had a gun shoved in her face while working in a housing office (she told the guy the ****** off :D)

I couldn't strike, though. It's a personal thing. I'm not in a union and also feel (sorry!) that many (most?) public sector workers are quite well paid.

I've also asked many colleagues why they are striking, very few could give cogent reasons.

Now, I'm not saying I won't join a Union if things get worse and I respect members right to strike.

Regards.
 
ding76uk said:
Surely it is purely down to his services? No wonder he is in such high demand!

People say they want only outstanding people to teach future generations, yet you charge them a 27k debt to train, freeze their pay for 2-3 years and then make them contribute more to their pensions when they get a 1% pay rise (effectively cutting their salary by 2%). Making them work til 70. Can you not see the irony in this whole thing?

Ask a 70 year old how it feels chasing one grandchild around all day, let alone a class of 30.
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How is asking you to contribute more to a pension cutting salary? Your paid the same but you are investing for your future. If you don't like it, opt out of the pension and start your own.
 
My beef with teachers is that the ones I know have a pompous attitude because they are a teacher and feel they are superior to everyone else. I am sure not all are like that but I remember teachers moaning about pay 25 years ago so in that case, why enter it?

The teachers that I know moan about the pay, pension and when I bring up the 12 week holiday moan that they still do work in some of that time and also they do not work 9-3 but work later and at weekends. To be fair, I know that many do put in extra time, and they have to take holiday when the school does (and holiday prices go up). However, unless you are caught fiddling, it is pretty hard to get sacked and never teach again, so you do have about as certain a job for life as you can get. Pay is reasonable and I must point out that most private sector workers earning 35k+ will also work evenings and weekends. I have spent 15 years in sales and have often needed to start the day at 6am, or get home at 9pm, do admin and planning at evenings and weekends. Friends often get into the office at 8 and don't leave to 6. But teachers seem to make such a point about how much work they do when in actual fact it is no different to most people I know. Teachers are important, but without the brick maker, glazer, plumber, software developer, secretary, printer etc... then schools would not function.

IMO there is a balance that both private and public sector ignore. 50% of my 10 closest friends are public sector workers, and the rest private, and overall I see this:

Public Sector have more secure jobs. I know many face redundancy but the private sectors in us have been made redundant far more often. They also have better pension schemes (they get more contributions and pay less overall). They also don't have the same 'performance measures' that private sector has, although a number of people I know are in Sales or related. Private sector generally get paid a bit more but this does vary. Lowest and highest earners are private sector but as an average w generally earn a bit more. Private sector take less sick and get less holidays, and the pensions are not as good. We do however get some benefits like cars, health and bonus.

So overall, there are positives and advantages to both. So while the public sector may be getting hit on pensions, the private sector are hardly having it away. For a number of reasons, the country is skint and savings need to be made. Better to do this now than keep the pensions as they are and in 20 years time then not be able to pay out without bankrupting the country. We have all needed to make cuts. Remember that the public sector has grown massively in the last 10 years so if the public sector say has doubled, then keeping pensions as they are means that double the money has to be found. Did we need the public sector to increase as much as it has? Probably not, so I would be happy to keep pensions as they are but reduce wastage and numbers by a 1/4 for example.

Final rant on teachers. People have the right to strike, but teachers are a rare profession. If most other public services strike it is an inconvenience. Longer queues or return tomorrow/next week. With teachers if they don't turn up many hard working families have to use up holiday or lose pay as kids can't go to school. The strike is on a Weds, the day that most parents I know work. they could have gone on strike on Mon/Fri, still made a point but inconvenienced less people? Or they could have gone in bit not taught all day?
 
Splog said:
How is asking you to contribute more to a pension cutting salary? Your paid the same but you are investing for your future. If you don't like it, opt out of the pension and start your own.
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They won't as their pension will be much smaller.
 
boyfalldown said:
that argument makes very limited sense.

Jeez, so my (and your) taxes pay for teachers, firefighters, police, NHS staff......so what. You think its just creating jobs for the boys that you're paying for and getting nothing back from it?
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Read the quote I answered to!
 
specialman said:
I feel your pain. You'd think I was a five-year-old with the way my spelling comes out :LOL:

Despite coming in with an inflammatory first post, don't hate Dale for his views ad someone who exposed to schooling, regardless of how good they are.

This thread has turned into a tit-for-tat argument about who is worse off, who knows most about education, and who has a right to comment because they know someone in education. Some of you would argue with yourselves in an empty room. What is the point in trying to price each other wrong? Oneupmanship is vile in real life and even more distasteful on a forum where everyone turns into an expert.
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It's not oneupmanship at all. Personally, I just feel sorry for some of the teachers on this forum having to reading a lot of anti-teacher rhetoric.

I dont think anyone hates Dale ! It's just good old-fashioned debate laced with a touch of sarcasm perhaps (but that would be the way if debated in the pub).
 
Lynton said:
would that be a bit like a lot of the private sector who started off on final salaries to have them slashed to money purchase schemes? :shrug: - not arguing with you, just pointing out it's happened everywhere...
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Exactly!
 
I never get worried by what happens on forums and enjoy the debate :)
 
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