Anyone here knowledgeable in employment law (time off for dependants)?

EspressoJunkie said:
Anymore than three periods of absence in six months may lead to disciplinary action
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Yes but the contract must also detail the stages of disciplinary action.
 
big soft moose said:
yes you can - you make a contingency plan of what you'll do if a child is sick - such as relatives, bringing in a 1-1 child minder , having an arrangement to work from home at short notice, taking the time as flexitime/toil and making it up etc point being that its your problem not that .....blah blah
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Wouldn't it be marvellous if everyone could live in Pete's perfect (imaginary) world, where every contingency has it's own contingency :rolleyes:
 
Just to add fuel to the fire. My workforce is almost a 60:40 split between employed and self employed.

NON of the self employed guys have ever had any time off due to the scenario in the OP. However half of the employed guys have.
We have the same issues with sickness.

IF we were office based at a central location then it wouldn't really be an issue. But If I have to send a driver over 200 miles away to them start a 200 mile round at short notice it then means we have to also pay for overnight accommodation.
 
viv1969 said:
Wouldn't it be marvellous if everyone could live in Pete's perfect (imaginary) world, where every contingency has it's own contingency :rolleyes:
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Wouldn't it be marvellous if people didn't argue for the sake of it :bang:

thing is like it or not if the same thing has happened 11 times in 12 months, it is reasonable for an employer to expect an employee to have a contingency plan for it (after about the third time). Did they not cover the concept of 'reasonableness' during your (possibly imaginary) law degree ?

Emergency parental leave is intended to be for one off occasions that could not be predicted - like little jonny or jemina being hospitalised , it isn't meant for every time they get a sniffle.

Greg - believe it or not I am on your side here, It strikes me that your wife's employers are behaving in a distinctly unreasonable way by not investigating the issue, before starting a disciplinary - however if your wife is going to fight the warning (bearing in mind that if she does a disciplinary hearing could impose a worse penalty thab the first warning she'll get if she just accepts it) she needs to do so on grounds that stand up.

I'd be really wary of basing that action on the advice of anyone on the internet , whether they claim to have a law degree or not , before going that route I'd strongly suggest speaking to a proper employment lawyer (the union will have someone - although as a non member you will have to pay)
 
You're the only one who has mentioned my degrees (there are 2 :-) ) Pete, and I haven't offered any more advice here than anyone without them.

I think possibly the main difference between your posts and mine though, is the amount of googling required for you to contribute information germane to the subject.

OP...I wish your wife luck with her meeting and hope it goes well for her. I'm bowing out to avoid a p***ing match with Pete :-)
 
I wouldn't let him get to you Ruth, AFAIK he doesn't have kids so has no idea of what can and will go wrong and
no amount of forward planning can cover every eventuality, and I bet he won't answer this
Most people work because they need the money, having an extra childminder on a retainer to look after sick kids
just isn't an option.
I already made a similar point to in HERE in the thread
 
Just out of curiosity, who does your wife work for? (You can send me a PM in confidence if you prefer).
 
we have verbal warning as the first option at our place, i would expect her to be given that before jumping in to written.
 
Matt said:
we have verbal warning as the first option at our place, i would expect her to be given that before jumping in to written.
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I agree - although in most cases 'verbal' is a bit of a misnomer as you probably still receive written notice that a warning has been given , and it usually remains on file for 6 months - we have quite a prolonged process which goes

informal warning (no written notice given, nothing on file)
notification of poor performance (usually at PDR but can fall between times)
performance improvement plan (3 months to get your s*** together with support from the line manager)
formal verbal warning
1st written warning
final written warning
dismissal (although the hearing can chose other measures such as another warning , demotion , suspension, redeployment to a different post etc)

that said a disciplinary board can start at any step 'with good reason' - for example instances of gross misconduct would usually jump to final written or possibly straight to dismissal if warranted

The really key thing though (which ought to be common to most employers) is that any disciplinary should start with a thorough investigation of the facts - usually be the line manager, unless there are doubts about his impartiality, in which case another manager can be nominated to investigate. It is extremely unusual (and possibly improper) to jump straight to a disciplinary hearing without first having an investigative meeting/period to establish the facts.

(one point is that we've all been assuming the OP is in the UK - other countries employment laws vary dramatically , for example in America many states have an 'at will' policy - which basically means employees can be canned much more easily than they can on this side of the pond)
 
I would hazard a guess he's from Northern Ireland, which I believe is still part of the UK.

You'd need to know an individual companies contracted terms for these procedures before you can make any assumptions as
to what action they take, mine is quite a bit different, as far as sick days etc are concerned it's 15 days or 4 occasions you could
have 5 separate days off sick over a year and find yourself flagged up for a stage one warning, all firms are different, and as far as I am
aware there is no obligation to pay employees when they are off sick
 
big soft moose said:
Emergency parental leave is intended to be for one off occasions that could not be predicted - like little jonny or jemina being hospitalised , it isn't meant for every time they get a sniffle.
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actually its not - If one of my kids are unwell then a parent will have to stay with them as they won't be at nursery or school. now thankfully I can just go into work early if they are sick the night before but if not then I have to leave work early. If me and lynne worked the same hours then one would have to stay off. The law states you have to let your employer know as soon as possible but that doesn't mean two days before.

Taking time off for a dependent is not a sick day and can't be used as such.
 
11 emergenicies in 12 months?
I think the company is within its rights to ask her to sit down with them and talk especially as she only works 3 days/week.

much as i appreciate the needs of families businesses need to expect a certain level from there employees.

They need to get this on record with a view to if this continues.
 
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As much as I dislike where I work, I suppose I have it a lot easier than the OP's partner....straight to a formal disciplinary seems quite harsh. If I had to go home for a family emergency half way through my shift I would just either be expected to take it as holidays or owe the time back and it probably would go no further than supervisory level. That being said, going into double figures over a 12 month period would possibly get me hauled infront of the manager or HR but I would expect no more than a discussion of how things could be tackled better in the future rather than a warning.

As situations like this are usually down to the discretion of your manager, i'd suspect Mr. Newguy is trying to flex his managerial muscles.
 
I work for a major UK PLC.

The 1st stage is an absence investigation meeting where absence level goes above trigger. In the meeting it is assessed whether these absences are mitigating and whether they are to be counted on the absence or dimissed off the absence rate. For example cold/flu etc would count but an accident within the work place wouldn't. Recurring events, solutions are also discussed. I for one had an absence related to RSI, so adjustments to DSE workstation/reduction in hours was really the flow of conversation. It was beneficial to both of us to have this meeting.

If all the absences add up to go above the trigger , there is a displinary hearing where a verbal warning is issued, it drops off through pretty quickly and would only go to written if they were absent within the short frame the verbal was live etc.

I don't know enough about the absence due to illness of dependents but at a rate of 1 event per month is getting on a little. I wish the OPs wife all the best, but the company would probably want to discuss solutions (flexi time/home working, changes of hours) to help them and their colleague. I'd however NOT go into that meeting without a union rep or someone who knows what they are doing.
 
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POAH said:
actually its not - If one of my kids are unwell then a parent will have to stay with them as they won't be at nursery or school. now thankfully I can just go into work early if they are sick the night before but if not then I have to leave work early. If me and lynne worked the same hours then one would have to stay off. The law states you have to let your employer know as soon as possible but that doesn't mean two days before.

Taking time off for a dependent is not a sick day and can't be used as such.
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I agree as a one off, but if your kids are habitually sick (11 times in a year is nearly once per month on average) then you can plan for the eventuality, and its reasonable for an employer to expect you to do so

the law also provides that your employer has to allow reasonable absence - there is always going to be a limit on what an employer or indeed the law considers reasonable
 
big soft moose said:
I agree as a one off, but if your kids are habitually sick (11 times in a year is nearly once per month on average) then you can plan for the eventuality, and its reasonable for an employer to expect you to do so

the law also provides that your employer has to allow reasonable absence - there is always going to be a limit on what an employer or indeed the law considers reasonable
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you can't plan for someone to be sick unless you make them sick. while I do agree 11 may sound a bit excessive how many kids are we talking about?
 
So after all this worry and fuss the outcome was no formal action was taken.

This reinforces my opinion that this is indeed the new manager trying to make his mark.

There was no need to to handle the situation in this way, and of it was up to me I would make that known, but apparently I'm not allowed to...(according to my wife, not work!)
 
I would assume you are part of a larger business, if so what happens is the absences get flagged up and the manager
has to report back to those above, doesn't mean he has to take any action, just he has to be seen to be doing something
in this case having a chat with the employee
 
EspressoJunkie said:
So after all this worry and fuss the outcome was no formal action was taken.

This reinforces my opinion that this is indeed the new manager trying to make his mark.

There was no need to to handle the situation in this way, and of it was up to me I would make that known, but apparently I'm not allowed to...(according to my wife, not work!)
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Perhaps ib the future, you could split the sick kid absence with the wife, thus not raiaing the flag abive the trenches. Worth a thought.
 
Gremlin said:
I would assume you are part of a larger business, if so what happens is the absences get flagged up and the manager
has to report back to those above, doesn't mean he has to take any action, just he has to be seen to be doing something
in this case having a chat with the employee
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I understand that, but this was a formal procedure carried out by HR, not him (although he would have been the instigator) and was as far from having a chat as you can get!
 
Amazed that after all of this discussion no-one has mentioned the Bradford factor.

11 instances of 1 day each gives a score of 1331, add another 121 points for every extra day

Most workplaces will have an investigation threshold around the 100-150 mark, anything over 900 is considered ground to consider dismissal or formal warnings
 
I'm reminded of the old joke about the employee pulled up by a manager because 40% of her absences were on Fridays or Mondays...
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
Amazed that after all of this discussion no-one has mentioned the Bradford factor.

11 instances of 1 day each gives a score of 1331, add another 121 points for every extra day

Most workplaces will have an investigation threshold around the 100-150 mark, anything over 900 is considered ground to consider dismissal or formal warnings
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Not often used these days by HR as so many dismissals were ruled unfair following it's use.
It was generally used in cases of the employees own claims of sickness, not for time off for dependants.
Quite apart from that it's a ridiculously lazy and innacurate management tool.
 
Bradford score is utter tosh.. I was off work with a chest infection and was pressured to go back before I was fully fit. I think I lasted a shift before I had to go off again... Yup, 2 absences. In future if I'm off sick I won't go back before I'm ready too.
 
POAH said:
you can't plan for someone to be sick unless you make them sick. while I do agree 11 may sound a bit excessive how many kids are we talking about?
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yes you can - you can't schedule it but you can plan what you are going to do if/when it happens - you could (depending on what you do) for example agree with your manager that if you need to take time off at short notice (beyond the number of times they consider reasonable) you'll make it up by swapping days , or that you'll take it as flexi , or as leave - you could plan that you'll ask granny to come over, or great aunt flo , or maisies mum from down the street so that you'll only need to miss an hour or two rather than all day. Etc

I sympathise with Greg and his missus as it does sound like the company have mishandled this - if 'NFA' was the desired result why start a formal process in the first place ? , but that aside in general terms you can plan for child sickness, just like you can for a car breaking down, or a tube strike , or any other similar occurrence.
 
big soft moose said:
yes you can - you can't schedule it but you can plan what you are going to do if/when it happens - you could (depending on what you do) for example agree with your manager that if you need to take time off at short notice (beyond the number of times they consider reasonable) you'll make it up by swapping days , or that you'll take it as flexi , or as leave - you could plan that you'll ask granny to come over, or great aunt flo , or maisies mum from down the street so that you'll only need to miss an hour or two rather than all day. Etc

I sympathise with Greg and his missus as it does sound like the company have mishandled this - if 'NFA' was the desired result why start a formal process in the first place ? , but that aside in general terms you can plan for child sickness, just like you can for a car breaking down, or a tube strike , or any other similar occurrence.
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do you have young kids? even if your child is sick on friday night and you can inform the company you will be off monday you are still taking emergency leave. the law is clear on the subject when you are allowed to give time.
 
big soft moose said:
yes you can - you can't schedule it but you can plan what you are going to do if/when it happens - you could (depending on what you do) for example agree with your manager that if you need to take time off at short notice (beyond the number of times they consider reasonable) you'll make it up by swapping days , or that you'll take it as flexi , or as leave - you could plan that you'll ask granny to come over, or great aunt flo , or maisies mum from down the street so that you'll only need to miss an hour or two rather than all day.
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Not every firm can offer flexi time, some work has to be done to a timescale, failure means they get fined, one person calling in sick or because a dependant
is sick could cost a lot of money.
Also TBH my kids were precious to me and no way would I have wanted to leave them with just anybody, I want the person looking after them to be
capable and sensible, especially if they were ill
 
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