Any Police Officers on here?

[Bernie174]

Grayman

Yep, I don't doubt there are some good ones. Are there enough good, and should those that aren't be got rid of? No, is the answer to the first point and yes to the second. When we takled Senior Police Officers about how many were a waste of time, the response was that they couldn't get rid of the dross, as it would deter others from joining.
I'll say it again though, but some of them maybe would have made good police officers, but the training was absolutely rubbish, it didn't help that the badly trained then did the training for the next lot in, so bad became worse.
On the whole though, I have not met many police officers who've had anything good to say about specials, in my force or others.

 

[Fionab]

my son wants to be a police officer as well....... once he does Uni and gets his degree,, and I certainly wouldnt be putting him off, there are plenty other jobs just the same., try nursing for example... my partner works 12 hour shifts drives 1 1/2 hours every day works 5- 6 days a week cant take holidays unless he can get them covered himself,,,, is meant to get 2 weekends a month off note i said "meant" and would he have it any other way..... well yeah but would he leave nope that is what he trained for and i would hope the majority of police officers think the same way

 

[Eddzz!!]

Grayman

Yep, I don't doubt there are some good ones. Are there enough good, and should those that aren't be got rid of? No, is the answer to the first point and yes to the second. When we takled Senior Police Officers about how many were a waste of time, the response was that they couldn't get rid of the dross, as it would deter others from joining.
I'll say it again though, but some of them maybe would have made good police officers, but the training was absolutely rubbish, it didn't help that the badly trained then did the training for the next lot in, so bad became worse.
On the whole though, I have not met many police officers who've had anything good to say about specials, in my force or others.

I've not met a single police officer (and I know a great number of them) who have a bad thing to say about Specials. Whether or not they have a cost attached, some forces need all the help they can get when they have their employment budget slashed by central government. I'm sorry that you have these views, but I find it hard to believe that said views are shared by as many as you say.

 

[big soft moose]

I didnt think "ghost town" was all that

joking aside, to be fair to bernie i'd suspect that what police officers say to specieals may not be exactly the same as what they say between themselves

 

[Bernie174]

I've not met a single police officer (and I know a great number of them) who have a bad thing to say about Specials. Whether or not they have a cost attached, some forces need all the help they can get when they have their employment budget slashed by central government. I'm sorry that you have these views, but I find it hard to believe that said views are shared by as many as you say.

You can think what you like. But I can assure you that specials are not as helpful as you'd like to think. In my experience they are more a hindrance.

 

[big soft moose]

endof the day there isnt going to be a definitive answr to this - i strongly suspect that you'll find that some specials are great, while some are morons , just as some regular officers will aproach them with an open mind, and others will rely on preconcieved predjudice ... ther'll be blame on both sides of the equation, but its unlikely to ever be admitted

 

[Byker28i]

It isn't like it was in the old days...

Met some good Met police but far more aggressive, in your face types. Had the misfortune to see it from both sides as a bystander in the miners strike, didn'r believe the Father in law in the Wapping dispute until I went down there and also got innocently caught up in kettling in London a couple of years ago (false imprisonment anyone?). Must be something about the area and size of the force.


Out local police force had a committee which sat to discuss police matters and I served as a public member for a few years after being challenged by a copper I knew. From the outside, the changes that have come in via Windsor report etc were needed, I'm not sure they needed to be changed for everyone, should be for new entries onwards, but things needed to change. With the money available, the old style policing was unsustainable. 17% of the force off sick for more than 21 days, almost guaranteed employment, or allowed to retire on full pension rather than face prosecutiong. The police force is a responsive force these days, backed up by cheaper technology.

Oh and I didn't see Officers hung out to dry as Bernie said, I actually saw several be strongly defended in their actions in the local media by the senior offices and a few allowed to leave quietly when found to have overstepped the mark.


So good luck Eddy, and well done for pursuing something you wanted to do. We do need Police officers of all varieties and I hope your rural service works out ok and you don't run into too many drunken Liverpool or Manchester tourists

 

[Eddzz!!]

It isn't like it was in the old days...

Met some good Met police but far more aggressive, in your face types. Had the misfortune to see it from both sides as a bystander in the miners strike, didn'r believe the Father in law in the Wapping dispute until I went down there and also got innocently caught up in kettling in London a couple of years ago (false imprisonment anyone?). Must be something about the area and size of the force.


Out local police force had a committee which sat to discuss police matters and I served as a public member for a few years after being challenged by a copper I knew. From the outside, the changes that have come in via Windsor report etc were needed, I'm not sure they needed to be changed for everyone, should be for new entries onwards, but things needed to change. With the money available, the old style policing was unsustainable. 17% of the force off sick for more than 21 days, almost guaranteed employment, or allowed to retire on full pension rather than face prosecutiong. The police force is a responsive force these days, backed up by cheaper technology.

Oh and I didn't see Officers hung out to dry as Bernie said, I actually saw several be strongly defended in their actions in the local media by the senior offices and a few allowed to leave quietly when found to have overstepped the mark.


So good luck Eddy, and well done for pursuing something you wanted to do. We do need Police officers of all varieties and I hope your rural service works out ok and you don't run into too many drunken Liverpool or Manchester tourists

Thanks mate! I don't think I'll be spending too much time rural policing - they'll be deploying us in the city/town centres. I wouldn't mind going out on patrol in Snowdonia, however, it would be a rather pleasant place to work!

 

[Bernie174]

Byker

I was at Wapping, not every weekend, but a few. The violance I saw came entirely from the other side, and was some of the worst I'd ever seen. I wont pretend that all police are angels, but nor are the public, by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyway, on your verious points, was Winsor needed? Some of it yes, but much of it is flawed, and based on flawed research. Time will tell if it will make things better, but so far it hasn't.

Old style policing? Or old style police terms and conditions? The 2 things are different.

I Policed old style policing and terms and conditions, and I have to say there were more Police around, even though there were less of us, we dealt with things much faster, but we didn't have targets and process to hinder us.

The new style of policing has been there since the late 90's, so it's bedding in period is over, it doesn't work. It's policing by process, and hang the PC if it he doesn't adhere to that. Policing is all about shades of gray, and process cannot account for that. However peoples over developed sense of entitlement makes them think there must always be some blame when things go wrong, it's much easier to blame a Police officer if he's not followed a flawed process than it is if he has to make it up as he goes along, based on what seems most reasonable. No one gets it right 100% of the time, but all too often Police Officers are sack or disciplined for trying to do the right thing in the circumstances, but are second gussed by proxy.

You don't see Police officers being hung out to dry? Some examples for you:
PC from hants charged with dangerous driving, following a chase. Jury aquitted him within 30 minutes of being sent out.
PC from the Met whistleblowing corrupt practice in seniour mnanagment over crime stats, disciplined for with no evidence supporting the charge.
PC not being allowed to leave his job while the IPCC have a second go at finding something to discipline him for. That matter has been going on for 5 years now! So PC is unable to get on with his life.
Those are off the top of my head, if I looked into it, there are 100's more.

As for people being allowed to resign quitely, not for several years now, once served with a Reg 9 notice, you can't leave. Remember this is not the forces where you have a contract to serve for X number of years, yet unlike any other occupation, you cnan be made to stay.

Resigning does not prevent criminal action, and thats not in the hands of either the IPCC or the Police, it's the CPS that make that decision, if they haven't charged then there's insufficent evidence, it's not something that Police officers have managed to find a way of avoiding.

Oh, and a point of interest here, if you are arrested and Police inadvertantly do something that they shouldn't under PACE, it would get chucked out of you were charged. If Complaints or the IPCC mess it up, then that's fine, Police officer will still hang. Justice for all? No.

Sickness. The averages are high yes, no great surprise there, it's a by product of civilianisation and the working enviroment. So, as a simple example, Female officer has a hysterectomy. Quite clearly it will take time for her to return to full duty. In the past, there were jobs, like Comms, or Admin that she could have filled. Now those jobs are civilianised and cannot be back filled by Police Officers on restricted duties, so she has to remain off sick. Thats goes for injuries on duty as well, my current job I can do if I say, break my arm. I could not walk the streets, if there's no non operational job, my doctor would have no option but to sign me off.

Unfortunatly Policing is a job where you do get injured, sometimes it's minor, sometimes its not, but it isn't an office job where the worst you can expect is a paper cut. Winsor tried to compare it against other occupations, which were not comparable. It was one of many parts of his report that wasn't supported by evidence.

But in spite of that, Police Officers still get off their backsides and do the job we pay them for, or not in the case of Specials. Would I join if I were younger now? no, I wouldn't. Would I do it again as it was when I joined, yes, I would.

We now have a policing style and conditions for Police that are going to lead to an even steeper decline in Policing for us all. Pay reductions means more likelihood of corruption. The hang a Police Officer mentality means doing everything by flawed or inefficent process. The sickness policy means Police officers trying to work when they are not fit to do so, so will probably lead to more sickness in the long run. Pension and rewards policy means less 'vocational Policing' and more I'll do it for 5 years then move on. Privatisation of policing functions means G4S being involved...I wont go there!

 

[Byker28i]

Bernie - it was a little tongue in cheek and I understand many of the frustrations of the effects of Windsor. I believe it swung too far the other way but some changes were needed, the police force has changed, for better for worse. We all have different experiences - thats what make this place interesting.

Miners strike and Wapping, I've no doubt scores were settled on either side and on both I was there on the fringes, but at Wapping, standing with my Father in Law as a member of the crowd in peaceful protest and randomly charged by horses and coppers with batons wasn't funny, especially when they targetted those with cameras.

 

[Bernie174]

Byker, obviously as I said I wasn't there every saturday night, nor was I on every cordon. Like you, I can only say what I saw. The cordons I was on came under sustained missile throwing and we had to take that for 20-30 minutes before the cavalary was sent out. When they were, it was firework, marbles as well as missiles that were thrown at them.
Actions have reactions, if nothing was chucked at us, then there'd have been no mounted branch charging the crowd.
Same on the minors strike, albeit, the mine I was at was working, and the miners there were moderate. They would have voted for a strike, had Scargill let them have a vote. He wouldn't, obviously because he wanted to bring down another Government. Oddly they weren't critical of Police at the pits there was trouble at, they blamed Scargill.
Much is said about the police during that time, but there was very little trouble where Police were present, but plenty of intimidation and of course at least one murder by miners where we were not there.

As for Winsor, I firmly believe he is very wrong. The suspicion is he was given the conclutions by Cameron and told to go and justify them. It would certain explain much of his report. We all accepted that there were changes needed, and I agree he's gone way too far with those. None of his changes will help matters. It may save a few million short term but longer term we are in for a far worse Police Force and that will cost far more to fix than the short terms savings.