Any Plumbers in? Unvented Hot water

[DorsetDude]

Just wondered if any plumbers frequented the forum (or someone who has had the same done) and can give me a rough estimate of cost.

Want to convert my hot water system from the cold tank in the loft feeding the cylinder type, to an unvented system which should give me higher hot water pressure. Assuming the cylinder itself is changed as part of this anyway so I might go for a slightly larger one.

I am in a 2 bed, 1 reception bungalow if that assists.

I have my usual plumber coming tomorrow to do an emergency repair on something else so I will ask him also.

Cheers

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

What size is your current cylinder? You will need a fair sized cylinder for unvented hot water unless you want to continuously run out of hot water.
You also need to consider the location of the cylinder due to the additional weight etc of a new larger cylinder.
You also need to have good cold water pressure as well, but your plumber will be able to check this for you.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Is a combi boiler an option? Hot water at mains pressure in unlimited amounts, and only heated as required.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Is a combi boiler an option? Hot water at mains pressure in unlimited amounts, and only heated as required.

In a small bungalow it could be a better option. Usually unvented systems are installed in larger properties with numerous bathrooms, where a combi would not cope if several hot taps/Mixer showers were being run at the same time.

 

[Craig1912]

would be interested in replies also. Why would you need a bigger hot water tank? Surely you would run out of hot water quicker or is it just because of higher pressure.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

would be interested in replies also. Why would you need a bigger hot water tank? Surely you would run out of hot water quicker or is it just because of higher pressure.

With mains pressure hot water, you get a greater flow rate, so unless you have a bigger tank, you will run out of hot water quicker.

 

[DorsetDude]

Cost for a combi is £2500 (had a quote or two last year) plus major kitchen cabinet reworking so want to avoid it.
Also thought conversion to unvented might be a lot cheaper than that.
Cylinder at present is on the ground floor, so weight shouldnt be an issue. Also its only me so size not that important apart from selling the property in the future maybe if a survey picked it up as too small. So a "proper" sized one for the property would be the best bet I guess. Even if I never use the capacity.
I suspect my cold water pressure will be too low though.

 

[Craig1912]

With mains pressure hot water, you get a greater flow rate, so unless you have a bigger tank, you will run out of hot water quicker.

ahh Ok I understand now. I'm guessing ours would be big enough as it is as it copes with 4 people having a power shower each morning.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Cost for a combi is £2500 (had a quote or two last year) plus major kitchen cabinet reworking so want to avoid it.
Also thought conversion to unvented might be a lot cheaper than that.
Cylinder at present is on the ground floor, so weight shouldnt be an issue. Also its only me so size not that important apart from selling the property in the future maybe if a survey picked it up as too small. So a "proper" sized one for the property would be the best bet I guess. Even if I never use the capacity.
I suspect my cold water pressure will be too low though.

Why do you think you need an unvented cylinder?

 

[srichards]

What do you need the higher hot water pressure for? If it's for a shower then just get an electric one installed that feeds straight from the mains rather than from out of the cold water tank and hot water tank. It'll cost more to run than gas heated water but it should be much cheaper to install.

If it is just a general takes ages to fill anything up with hot water then I think you can get pumps to help with water pressure.

 

[DorsetDude]

Why do you think you need an unvented cylinder?

To increase the hot water pressure primarily and do away with loft water tank enabling easier loft insulation.

What do you need the higher hot water pressure for? If it's for a shower then just get an electric one installed that feeds straight from the mains rather than from out of the cold water tank and hot water tank. It'll cost more to run than gas heated water but it should be much cheaper to install..

Been down this avenue with my plumber before. Because my bathroom is fully tiled wall to ceiling and he'd have to take tiles out to fit a new shower the cost is a small fortune because of the re-tiling the whole room.

If it is just a general takes ages to fill anything up with hot water then I think you can get pumps to help with water pressure.

Again I asked him about this and he again said he couldnt do it. I cant remember the exact reasoning though. And with pumps you cant use the tap to adjust the flow so well (had them before) you have to get a certain flow rate to trigger the pumps and then its full on. Which used to annoy me. although if it was just on the shower feed I could possibly live with it as its usually on full anyway.

 

[srichards]

Been down this avenue with my plumber before. Because my bathroom is fully tiled wall to ceiling and he'd have to take tiles out to fit a new shower the cost is a small fortune because of the re-tiling the whole room.

Get another plumber. You can easily fit a another shower and cut existing tiles and seal in properly if you are careful. The most you'd need to do is to re-tile is one wall, where the shower is.

 

[DorsetDude]

Get another plumber. You can easily fit a another shower and cut existing tiles and seal in properly if you are careful. The most you'd need to do is to re-tile is one wall, where the shower is.

But if I cant find matching tiles to what are already there, in the words of the prophet, I'm Donald Ducked. Need to redo the whole room.

 

[Cobra]

Is there any reason why not, because if it were me, I'd just run everything on the outside and make a feature of the pipes.
and or the cable trunking.
Or cut a small hole in the tiles and feed the cable down to the floor boards (or up to the loft)
seal up with what ever tiles as this'll be covered by the shower unit anyway?

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

What's through the wall that the showers on? Is it a stud wall?

 

[Mr Bump]

I would get another quote for a combination boiler 2.5k sounds way to much a decent boiler is say 800 and you are looking at mods and removal of the tank but the future energy savings in just using what you need

 

[boogie man]

I would get another quote for a combination boiler 2.5k sounds way to much a decent boiler is say 800 and you are looking at mods and removal of the tank but the future energy savings in just using what you need

Depends on what make of boiler (and where you live I suspect). My mother has just had a combi boiler fitted. The quotes varied between £2.2K for a Baxi up to £2.8K for a Vaillant

 

[mex]

I would get another quote for a combination boiler 2.5k sounds way to much a decent boiler is say 800 and you are looking at mods and removal of the tank but the future energy savings in just using what you need

£2500 sounds about right. To be honest when I have quoted for jobs and I get the "I can get a boiler for £800" line, my answer is ' go and buy one then' and I am out of the door, there is nothing worse than someone who has not got a clue about what is involved with installing a new boiler or the gas regs, building regs and every other reg that has to obeyed, not to mention the cost of all the other materials required to fit that boiler, have you seen the price of copper pipe and fittings lately ? a roll of unleaded solder alone is going to set you back £20, add to that flux, another £15 and gas for your lamp £15, there's £50 and you have yet to put 2 pipes together! 28mm coper tube is around £13 p/metre, 22mm is around £10 p/metre, 15mm is around £8 p/metre and the bloody fittings are outragious.Add to that a room stat & programmer or a programmable room stat, thermostatic valves, chemicals a whole host of other sundries to do the job, tools, van costs, insurance costs, Gas safe register fees, wages..........................................................................£2500 is about right.

 

[Cobra]

£2500 sounds about right. To be honest when I have quoted for jobs and I get the "I can get a boiler for £800" line, my answer is ' go and buy one then' and I am out of the door, .

Over Two years ago, I had a boiler wall fitted, in the kitchen
And the old baxi, back boiler taken out.
One radiator added to a "cold bedroom"
New programmer, thermostat & new pump fitted,
cost me about £2600, I was more than happy.

(I had had quotes from £2000-£3100 for all the above)

 

[Nod]

I don't have a clue as to the gas regs beyond the fact that without them a plumber is screwed so the cost of the certificates is a necessary expense for him/her if he/she wants to earn a living. As to the materials costs, do you really use a whole roll of solder for each job? A whole tub of flux? Or do you just charge each and every mug customer for the full roll/tub but stretch it through many jobs? In almost every trade, the cost of labour outweighs the materials.

About 2 1/2 years ago, a new condensing boiler, a towel heating radiator and new bathroom (basin and bath/shower) taps cost me under £2,000 including parts, labour and sundries.

 

[Mikesphotaes]

£2500 sounds about right. To be honest when I have quoted for jobs and I get the "I can get a boiler for £800" line, my answer is ' go and buy one then' and I am out of the door, there is nothing worse than someone who has not got a clue about what is involved with installing a new boiler or the gas regs, building regs and every other reg that has to obeyed, not to mention the cost of all the other materials required to fit that boiler, have you seen the price of copper pipe and fittings lately ? a roll of unleaded solder alone is going to set you back £20, add to that flux, another £15 and gas for your lamp £15, there's £50 and you have yet to put 2 pipes together! 28mm coper tube is around £13 p/metre, 22mm is around £10 p/metre, 15mm is around £8 p/metre and the bloody fittings are outragious.Add to that a room stat & programmer or a programmable room stat, thermostatic valves, chemicals a whole host of other sundries to do the job, tools, van costs, insurance costs, Gas safe register fees, wages..........................................................................£2500 is about right.

No idea about the rest of your prices but 15mm is £6.15 for THREE metres at PlumbNation so you are well out!

 

[mex]

. As to the materials costs, do you really use a whole roll of solder for each job? A whole tub of flux?

Really???

No you can go into any plumbers merchant and buy odd ends of solder and a spoonful of flux!

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

I don't have a clue as to the gas regs beyond the fact that without them a plumber is screwed so the cost of the certificates is a necessary expense for him/her if he/she wants to earn a living. As to the materials costs, do you really use a whole roll of solder for each job? A whole tub of flux? Or do you just charge each and every mug customer for the full roll/tub but stretch it through many jobs? In almost every trade, the cost of labour outweighs the materials.

About 2 1/2 years ago, a new condensing boiler, a towel heating radiator and new bathroom (basin and bath/shower) taps cost me under £2,000 including parts, labour and sundries.

That was cheap. What boiler did you get? A decent Worcester or vaillant and flue could set you back almost a grand alone.

 

[Nod]

Really???

No you can go into any plumbers merchant and buy odd ends of solder and a spoonful of flux!

You don't use a whole roll of solder for each job, it lasts for several different jobs and a tub of flux will last even longer.

Robert, it's a Potterton boiler with a balanced flue.

 

[mex]

You don't use a whole roll of solder for each job, it lasts for several different jobs and a tub of flux will last even longer.

Robert, it's a Potterton boiler with a balanced flue.

As they say ' little knowledge is often dangerous' , I would hope you did'nt get a balanced flued boiler fitted!!! ( being pedantic here) it will be a RSF ( room-sealed fanned) and you clearly install boilers regularly to make a statement about solder, there are jobs that will take not a great deal of solder, there are however jobs where you would use a few rolls, the same with flux.

 

[mex]

Just wondered if any plumbers frequented the forum (or someone who has had the same done) and can give me a rough estimate of cost.

Want to convert my hot water system from the cold tank in the loft feeding the cylinder type, to an unvented system which should give me higher hot water pressure. Assuming the cylinder itself is changed as part of this anyway so I might go for a slightly larger one.

I am in a 2 bed, 1 reception bungalow if that assists.

I have my usual plumber coming tomorrow to do an emergency repair on something else so I will ask him also.

Cheers

Have a look into 'thermal store' cylinders too, the cylinder would not be pressurized, the hot water will still be mains pressure and unlimited as long as the cylinder is hot.

 

[sirch]

Cost for a combi is £2500 (had a quote or two last year) plus major kitchen cabinet reworking so want to avoid it.
Also thought conversion to unvented might be a lot cheaper than that.
Cylinder at present is on the ground floor, so weight shouldnt be an issue. Also its only me so size not that important apart from selling the property in the future maybe if a survey picked it up as too small. So a "proper" sized one for the property would be the best bet I guess. Even if I never use the capacity.
I suspect my cold water pressure will be too low though.

I'm assuming from that comment that the boiler is currently in the kitchen.You can put a combi either where the cylinder is if it is on an outside wall or in the loft, so you free up kitchen space. I really would consider a combi, reduced plumbing complexity and more space, even if it means new kitchen cupboard doors, or a set of shelves where the old boiler was

 

[h14nha]

£2500 sounds about right. To be honest when I have quoted for jobs and I get the "I can get a boiler for £800" line, my answer is ' go and buy one then' and I am out of the door, there is nothing worse than someone who has not got a clue about what is involved with installing a new boiler or the gas regs, building regs and every other reg that has to obeyed, not to mention the cost of all the other materials required to fit that boiler, have you seen the price of copper pipe and fittings lately ? a roll of unleaded solder alone is going to set you back £20, add to that flux, another £15 and gas for your lamp £15, there's £50 and you have yet to put 2 pipes together! 28mm coper tube is around £13 p/metre, 22mm is around £10 p/metre, 15mm is around £8 p/metre and the bloody fittings are outragious.Add to that a room stat & programmer or a programmable room stat, thermostatic valves, chemicals a whole host of other sundries to do the job, tools, van costs, insurance costs, Gas safe register fees, wages..........................................................................£2500 is about right.

But you can get a boiler for £800, and a very good one at that. The trouble with gas engineers is they rely on people not checking what they say, and try to put the frighteners on customers who question them. The type of engineer who is "out the door" rather than explain their costs to the customer is the type of engineer who shouldn't be welcome in any home. People employing that type of engineer are asking to get their fingers burned.
You've already been caught out mis quoting your sundries costs, and as has been pointed out, they wouldn't all be used up on a single job. Why don't you provide a sample 'quote' on here detailing your overheads to prove your £2500. I'd be interested..........

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

But you can get a boiler for £800, and a very good one at that. The trouble with gas engineers is they rely on people not checking what they say, and try to put the frighteners on customers who question them. The type of engineer who is "out the door" rather than explain their costs to the customer is the type of engineer who shouldn't be welcome in any home. People employing that type of engineer are asking to get their fingers burned.
You've already been caught out mis quoting your sundries costs, and as has been pointed out, they wouldn't all be used up on a single job. Why don't you provide a sample 'quote' on here detailing your overheads to prove your £2500. I'd be interested..........

What difference does it make if the boilers only £800?
It doesn't install itself.
Try getting a quote from British Gas. It will make £2500 seem cheap
£2500 is not a bad price for a regular to combi conversion.
Others have had similar quotes as well.
As in all walks of life, there are always those who charge less, and those who charge more.
Wedding photographers are a perfect example. I'm sure there are plenty who can make more in a day than gas engineers, and they don't even have to worry about the potential to kill people if they mess up.
At the end of the day, you go with the one you're happy with.

 

[h14nha]

Don't mention British Gas to me. They refused to fix my uncles boiler leak because his gardener turned off the water to stop the leak. Despite paying £500/year the engineer told him company policy prevented him working on a boiler someone had touched prior to his visit. He's 76 years old and in very poor health

My sister has just had a system boiler removed, a copper cylinder and tanks removed with all associated pipe work. New boiler fitted, new gas main run in, new programmer with all new TRV's bar one for £1800. Plumber had one leak which he promptly came back and repaired..........

To answer your edit - the poster is asking for advice on costs of installs. If you can buy a boiler for £800 then charging £2500 to install it gives the engineer huge profits. Mex insinuated that £800 wasn't possible to purchase a boiler. It isn't true.

 

[mex]

Ok a quick quote:

Worcs Bosch 24i jnr £995

Built in timer £50

Flue £75

Charge link £18

Honeywell rf stat £115

System cleanser x800 £25

System inhibitor x100 £15

Magnaclean micro £100

pipe 28,22 & 15 £50

fittings £50

solder/flux/wire wool £50

condensate pipework & fittings £32

Sundries: plugs/screws/cables/clips/fillers/silicone/sand & cement/bricks & blocks/solvent weld £75

£1650







Assuming the new boiler is going in a like for like position with a horizontal flue and condensate connection to outside, the hot and cold water connections are within 2m of the new boiler position, the gas meter is within 2m of the new boiler position, thermostatic rad valves are already fitted and a by-pass provided. There is no asbestos to deal with ( there is lots of the awful stuff out there and in places you would not dream it exists).:

Remove the old boiler, tanks, cylinder,pump/s, valves controls etc and redundant pipework, make good remainder.

Install the boiler and flue make good flue hole brickwork inside and out.

Pipe up the boiler,gas supply and hot water supplies to gas and water regs

Install rf stat and electrical supply to boiler to electric regs.

Install system filter and treat with cleanser.

Flush system add inhibitor

Commission boiler and explain boiler operation and hand over to customer

Register boiler with GSR for building regs certification

Register boiler with manufacturer for warranty.



2 days labour £1000.00

£2650.

What a customer does not take into account when they want ‘a £800 boiler’:

Training courses ( you MUST attend an ACS or similar training course and attain a pass in order to gain GSR recognition and registration that alone is around £1500 every 5yrs or £3000 if you work in area where LPG is used), electrical training courses, GSR registration fees £150 p/yr. Public liability insurance £400/yr, running a van ( fuel, insurance, rfl, servicing and maintenance etc), running an office, wages, tax, NI, the list goes on.





This is approx. what I would charge. Considering my diary is relatively full , plenty of people I quote are more than happy to pay it.

 

[mex]

To answer your edit - the poster is asking for advice on costs of installs. If you can buy a boiler for £800 then charging £2500 to install it gives the engineer huge profits. Mex insinuated that £800 wasn't possible to purchase a boiler. It isn't true.

And where exactly have I said you it is'nt possible to buy a boiler for £800?? I think its you my friend that is'nt telling the truth!

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

To answer your edit - the poster is asking for advice on costs of installs. If you can buy a boiler for £800 then charging £2500 to install it gives the engineer huge profits. Mex insinuated that £800 wasn't possible to purchase a boiler. It isn't true.

He didn't insinuate that it wasn't possible, he merely said for them to go and buy one, then he mentioned the fact that there were many additional costs that would be incurred before the boiler was put on the wall.

 

[mex]

Don't mention British Gas to me. They refused to fix my uncles boiler leak because his gardener turned off the water to stop the leak. Despite paying £500/year the engineer told him company policy prevented him working on a boiler someone had touched prior to his visit. He's 76 years old and in very poor health

My sister has just had a system boiler removed, a copper cylinder and tanks removed with all associated pipe work. New boiler fitted, new gas main run in, new programmer with all new TRV's bar one for £1800. Plumber had one leak which he promptly came back and repaired..........

To answer your edit - the poster is asking for advice on costs of installs. If you can buy a boiler for £800 then charging £2500 to install it gives the engineer huge profits. Mex insinuated that £800 wasn't possible to purchase a boiler. It isn't true.

You really are a fool. I have just re-read your tripe, if you pay a 'plumber' £1800 for that lot then I am afraid you are going to have to expect leaks, as they say, pay peanuts=get monkeys. And where exactly is it insinuated that it is £2500 to install?

If you were to pay your car insurance at £500 per year for you alone to drive it and your friend drives it into a lamp post will your car insurance pay out? NOPE!! so why on earth would BG do similar? its called 3rd party interference.

 

[h14nha]

You really are a fool. I have just re-read your tripe, if you pay a 'plumber' £1800 for that lot then I am afraid you are going to have to expect leaks, as they say, pay peanuts=get monkeys. And where exactly is it insinuated that it is £2500 to install?

If you were to pay your car insurance at £500 per year for you alone to drive it and your friend drives it into a lamp post will your car insurance pay out? NOPE!! so why on earth would BG do similar? its called 3rd party interference.

No need to get personnel, can't you disagree without resorting to name calling. Are you saying that as a 'gas engineer' you don't get leaks ? The guy who fitted my sisters boiler was a registered gas engineer, and my point was he was obviously not a 'fly by night' as he returned to rectify a fault immediately. ( which many registered tradesmen wouldn't )

The car analogy is lost on me I'm afraid, I have no idea what it has to do with this thread

 

[h14nha]

He didn't insinuate that it wasn't possible, he merely said for them to go and buy one, then he mentioned the fact that there were many additional costs that would be incurred before the boiler was put on the wall.

Many hidden costs yes, but a guy I know was just quoted £2500 for a solid fuel boiler ( supply only ). When the installer let him down he contacted the manufacturer as he had been told it had already been ordered, only to be told it hadn't, and the price was £1900 including all the ancillaries required to install that he was being charged extra for too.
People quote manufacturers prices when quoting a job, the buy it trade price and pocket the difference. That's why they tell people to take a jump when people want to supply parts themselves, or mention a boiler price.

 

[mex]

and your point is what exactly? its illegal to make a profit? like I said in my first post 'go and buy one then'.

Don't mention British Gas to me. They refused to fix my uncles boiler leak because his gardener turned off the water to stop the leak. Despite paying £500/year the engineer told him company policy prevented him working on a boiler someone had touched prior to his visit. He's 76 years old and in very poor health

You really are a fool.

If you were to pay your car insurance at £500 per year for you alone to drive it and your friend drives it into a lamp post will your car insurance pay out? NOPE!! so why on earth would BG do similar? its called 3rd party interference.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Many hidden costs yes, but a guy I know was just quoted £2500 for a solid fuel boiler ( supply only ). When the installer let him down he contacted the manufacturer as he had been told it had already been ordered, only to be told it hadn't, and the price was £1900 including all the ancillaries required to install that he was being charged extra for too.
People quote manufacturers prices when quoting a job, the buy it trade price and pocket the difference. That's why they tell people to take a jump when people want to supply parts themselves, or mention a boiler price.

I'm sorry, but you can't tar everyone with the same brush.
I don't think there's anything wrong with a tradesman charging a retail price for a boiler, when they pay trade, however, I know plenty of tradesmen who pass on the discounts to their customers.
I think the comment re the boiler price refers to the fact that folks see the boiler price of say £800 and expect it's going to cost a couple of hundred pounds to fit, and then assume that they are getting ripped off when they find that it's not a couple of hundred pounds to have it fitted.
What happens when the customer supplied boiler develops a fault? Who's responsibility is it? The installers? The customers? The suppliers?
I sold boilers for years, and when someone says " I can buy a boiler for £xxx " my experience has generally been that they are usually not the sort of folks that you can reason with regarding all the associated costs, as they invariably don't want to listen. So I would tend to say to them to buy one, and wish them luck finding someone to fit it.

 

[h14nha]

No, you have every right to make a profit. Just as a customer has every right to point out you can get a very good boiler for £800.
You still haven't answered my earlier post, do you get leaks or is it just plumbers ? And where does someone else crashing my car come into it ? Like I said in my first post, the type of engineer who can't explain his costs without going 'out the door' shouldn't be welcome in any home. Your aggressive answers tell me all I need to know about you as a gas engineer...............

And I missed earlier I didn't say install only for £2500, just to clarify, I meant supply and fit.

 

[mex]

And I missed earlier I didn't say install only for £2500, just to clarify, I meant supply and fit.

I beg to differ old boy:

If you can buy a boiler for £800 then charging £2500 to install it gives the engineer huge profits.

In answer to your previous, I would like to think that I, like many other installers, will spend time after the installation to make sure there are no leaks, if there are they are repaired there and then and not do a quick one,leg it with fingers crossed and go back when the end user calls, like I said, pay peanuts=get monkeys. And to be perfectly honest, I would not want to do you work for some one of your nature, in fact I doubt if many would relish doing so.