Any Marine Fishkeepers? Clownfish advice required.....

Marcel

Marcel

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Marcel
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Please note I've split these posts from the fishkeeper thread in the hope more people see it

Well, after my wife and kids bringing home two goldfish from the fair last year....
We borrowed a neighbours old tank.

Until one died (was bullied by the other), so I replaced with two bought ones and a new 60L tank....

Unfortunately, they got white spot and died one by one.....so I persuaded now was a good time to go marine by a friend.....

Cue tonight and we're all ready for a couple of mated clownfish tomorrow.
Got the external pump and heater from him...(He's just upgraded), so his filter is full of goodness. Add to that he's given me some of his old water, and topped up the rest with RO water.
All readings are normal. Small reading of nitrate, but nothing to worry about.

Quite exciting actually....although with the pump, the heater, thermometer, the inlet and spray bar for the pump, and the powerhead....its any wonder there's space left for any fish :lol:
 
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coling said:
What filtration you using Marcel?
Click to expand...

Just the external pump and a UV filter for the moment. No skimmer.
When these two clownfish and have settled, and the tank is cycled I'm going to add some cured liverock. (Yes I know it should have been the other way round :$)
 
Right, woke up this morning and they were more docile than yesterday which got me worried. Did a quick water test and everything seemed fine.
I turned the light on, then fed them after 10 minutes. One of them seemed to enjoy eating (less active than their first feed yesterday), but the other just hovered above the bottom eating food that came to it...still not much sign of the shrimp, soft arse :D

Anyway, I looked into one of the ornaments and noticed a massive air pool, so I decided to upend it to clear it...and do it with the other major ornament.
LOTS of air came out of that one.

At this point, both clowns and the shrimp decided to go and hide round the back of the UV filter at the bottom......where they pretty much stayed all day. Quite lethargic.
Went back to the shop to discuss it and explained, showed a video on my P&S and he said it could be ammonia poisoning.
Because I got the healthy media and water from another established tank, I shouldn't have waited a couple of days to put fish in like I did. I should have put them in straight away. Some bacteria will have died off in the meantime, so they're possible cycling again and it could be ammonia.

I told him I'd read that it was best to wait for new fish to settle, and the "new fish spikes" (my words) to settle before adding live rock (I know I should have added it first...but too late!). He said no, its fine. Best get it in now, ASAP.
I also mentioned Im not using a skimmer, but I was tempted by an ozone (my friend bought two), he recommended getting the ozone in ASAP too, it can only help.
And also putting some liverock rubble into the filter too, to kickstart the removal of any ammonia.

So I bought a couple of kilos of live rock, some live rock rubble for the filter/pump, and a couple of test kits.

Got home, went to a friends to get some RO water which he'd already salted. We made a batch up with some oversalted water he had to get a 1.022/1.023 mix (PH 8.3....my tank is PH 8.1/8.2).
Got it home, stuck it in the sink full of hot water to get it up to 26ish degrees (tank is 27), and changed about 15% of the tank.
Also put the live rock in too and the ozone. Gave it a 60% blast of ozone for 5 minutes.

Tested the ammonia before the water change and it was at 1.5 which isn't good.
After the water change it was similar....but slightly lighter colour.

Will check it tomorrow and maybe do another water change.

I also evicted the fish from their hiding place. They were stuck down the back of the UV filter...so I waved my hand in the water to get them to move and put some live rock next to it, and put the filter flush with the side.

They've been swimming in the rest of the tank for a few hours now and look much happier.
Although they are mouthing quite a bit. Not stupidly fast....and the one that's been more active all day is having an occasional gasp at the surface.
Female hasn't eaten though....not that I've seen.

Theyre getting used to the shrimp and vice versa. He's getting much more brave now, sitting on his rock, coming out of the hole as a cleaning station when one of the clowns comes past. Even jumped on my finger this afternoon.

Anyway, I'm waffling now...here's a pic of the new additions to the family. Ignore the dried dripped water down the tank, I've been pigging about all day and not had chance to clean it all up.

110322_1763.jpg


There's no other way to get the ammonia down is there? Just small water changes and let the liverock and filter/s do their job?
 
Woke up this morning and theyd found a new hiding spot...(just behind where you see the shrimp there....)

I haven't seen the female out of there at all, even when I fed them a tiny amount at lunchtime. I even tried to get the syring down to her, but she just kept swimming away.
The male comes out every now and then, but keeps going back to the female.
Gave it 50% blast of 100mg/hr for a couple of minutes (not much but at the very least helped aereate the water).
Also did another water change. About 10% of so (roughly an 1/8th Id have thought, it's hard to guesstimate).
Still no extra movement in the female so I've turned the light off for the night.

A fresh ammonia test reveals still 1.5 mg/l ammonia (even after both water changes).
Nitrites are <0.3 (according to the test card...its the lowest comparable value on the card).

The shrimp is having the time of his life and can be found near the pump spray bar enjoying the wave.

I put ozone in it last night
 
BTW I put a skimmer on yesterday afternoon. So far it's only produced a bit of clear water while it beds in.

Went back to the shop today armed with a water sample and the story. I explained the problem to another guy there and he didnt even want to test the water. I explained my test results and he said he'd only get the same really.

I advised that the female is hiding and the male has pretty much joined her. She's even facing away from me ..... the sod lol

Anyway, I did another test today and Ammonia was still at 1.5 (My chart only does 0.25 then 1.5). Even after yesterday and tuesday's water changes.
He said the best course really would be an Ammonia Remover.
He recommended the Microbe-Lift Ammonia remover.

I got home and the instructions said one teaspoon for every 10gallons per 1.0mg/l of total ammonia.
Considering I read 1.5, and it's a 15 gallon tank. I figured minus the live rock and erring on the side of caution, 7.5ml of treatment. So i mixed it in a medicine cup (thanks kids :D) and then emptied it into a volvic bottle which I had filled with tank water.

I then mixed it and emptied it into the tank.

Immediately the fish were up and about swimming...(The time it took to turn round and put the bottle on the table).
However, it was only short lived...for about a couple of minutes.
Theyre now back hiding, and the male is sat at the front of the tank, occasional doing a loop to the female and back.

The bottle doesn't give how often you should dose either.
I did an Ammonia test an hour or so later and it reads about 0.25
No nitrites either. Or if there are, it's quite minimal to register a difference (Im thinking the tank is going into a mini cycle anyway due to me waiting two days to populate it with fish).

I've not fed today, and the guy at the shop says it might be best holding off feeding for a couple of days.
He doesn't know if they'll make it either.

I'd have thought with a much better level of ammonia reading (with it now being converted to ammonium) the fish should be making a bit of an improvement?

She's not getting ready to spawn is she?
 
I'd highly recommend joining an active, knowledgable marine fishkeeping forum and doing a lot more research before you get any further involved. Personally I'd recommend taking those fish to the shop and starting again once you know what you're doing. The ammonia remover you've just added has interrupted the cycle and reduced (possibly wiped out) any bacteria colony you had already built. Yes, it has removed the ammonia that was there in the water (temporarily) but now that the bacteria colony has been damaged the ammonia will come back at a higher level than before. I'm afraid there is far too much information you need to know for me to pass it on in a single post, hence I suggest further research.
 
I was under the impression (Through reading and other advice given) that the ammonia remover doesn't actually remove it. Merely remove the toxicity.
Therefore the cycle isn't interrupted.
 
Hey Marcel, welcome to the world of high stress marine fishkeeping ;)

Try not to panic too much. You might not have started in the ideal way but there's no reason why you can't rescue the situation. I kept marines for many years from large reefs to teeny nano tanks. In many respects, nano tanks, like yours, are harder to keep stable as small changes in water quality can have a huge impact as you've found out. However, they are also easier to remedy. The best remedy I found for your sort of situation is to carry out large daily water changes, ie 50% with good quality RO water and salt until all parameters are stable. Test all parameters daily to follow the cycle through. Don't add anything or change anything until the water quality has stablised. Not sure how long it'll take, hopefully a week or so.

Then you can drop the water changes down to once or twice a week but continue to monitor all parameters every few days to keep an eye on things. Once everything has been good for at least a couple of weeks you can start adding clean up crew to cope with the waste from your fish and slowly increase the liverock. You'll need about 5-7kg in your tank then you can remove the external filter. A mature tank your size should run fine on liverock and water changes alone. A skimmer is not necessary but as you have one, it will only help.

Instead of using the ozone, point a powerhead at the surface to help oxygenate the water. Ozone if used incorrectly can be dangerous, to your fish and yourself. I used it sparingly on my 200g system but would never dream of using it on a small tank. Too much could go wrong. Have a read at this http://www.reef-eden.net/ozone_in_the_reef_aquarium.htm. Reef Eden in general is a very good resource if you want something to read. Although he can be a bit controversial I found his advice pretty good in most situations.

As with photography though, there are many ways to the same ends and you will get a lot of advice, much of it conflicting. The above is just my honest opinion based on experience. Hopefully once your tank settles down you will have many long and happy years with your clowns. The Tomato Clowns I had in my 15g nano tank bred for many years until the male died whilst I was on holiday.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

PS sorry for the really long post :eek:
 
I thought this was a question specifically for me ?

I have had plenty of filter crashes in my time. Back breaking work. As they say plenty of water changes. Can you lower the level to make this easier ?
 
Marcel said:
Just the external pump and a UV filter for the moment. No skimmer.
When these two clownfish and have settled, and the tank is cycled I'm going to add some cured liverock. (Yes I know it should have been the other way round :$)
Click to expand...
So that's no filtration at all then really? You've got off to the worst possible start to be honest.
The best solution would be to get the livestock into an established tank while you get yours sorted.
Post your situation on a dedicated marine forum and I guarantee they will tell you the same.
No matter what you do I hope the livestock makes it thru.
 
hi marcel,

i work at a reputable marine specialists. i have only scanned your thread but if coling's summary is correct follow his advice. take the financial hit and just give them to a decent shop while you set your tank up correctly.

i will read in depth in a mo and come back to you.
 
how are you adding ozone?

dont tell me they advised you to spend money on an ozoniser and not a skimmer?:bat:

your friends media could not have been mature. as i was reading the first post i thought "thats ok".

it sounds like the shop you are frequenting is a bit shoddy by advising the addition of ammonia remover as a fix.

good that you now have a skimmer, have you done any partial water changes?

the advice others have given above is excellent and should be heeded:D

welcome to the world of marines:bonk:
 
Marcel,

I can't help as I am just starting to have a look at fish keeping after buying my god son this little number:

sbsp600.jpg


No fish in it yet as we are just going through the cycle etc...

Anyway good luck with the fish. I'm looking at starting a tank over the next few months (probably a 6' tropical one). I had no idea just how complicated it all was. I just thought you had to fill it full of water and let it get to the right temp but leaving it for a week, adding bacteria, going through the cycle to get the ammonia levels, nitrate levels etc I had no idea. Have you joined a fish keeping forum? Am I allowed to mention the one I've joined?
 
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Darren, of course you are :) Link away!

Thanks for the advice again :)
I've been doing partial water changes since. Ammonia is now reading zero. Nitrites are reading less than 0.3mg/l (It's the lowest reading on my kit). Small nitrate reading (less than 20).
Fish seem much happier and much more active.

I cut down on feeding while checking the parameters daily. I don't use the ozoniser much. It's quite powerful in the water and the fish were stressed enough as it is.

As I said, they're much more active now. Sticking together, more playful. Respiration has slowed down to a more normal level now too. Theyre much more active while feeding too. Went to feed them before and they were both happily attacking the end of the syringe with gusto.
 
http://www.tropicalfishforums.co.uk/index.php

I once got banned for 48 hours from a computer forum for mentioning TP !! I told the owner to stuff his forum as all I ever did was help other people and to get banned for mentioning a non competing forum was ridiculous!

Anyway I'm on there as probably the newest member with the same user name and avatar <LINK> :)
 
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We allow linking to every forum. Even other photography ones, unless it's designed to either pimp the other forum...or posted in a negative way :)
 
Blimey I'm thinking of keeping tropical fish!

I'd better get a supply of tablets to calm my nerves by the sound of it!!!
 
Blimey I'm thinking of keeping tropical fish!

Tropical arn't as hard as marine I think you need a chemistry degree to keep marine.
As long as you have patience and remember that the basis of 99% of any problems is down to water quality, keep on top of that and you will be fine.

Good luck Marcel Im so glad things are improving in your tank.
 
King of Groove said:
Blimey I'm thinking of keeping tropical fish!

I'd better get a supply of tablets to calm my nerves by the sound of it!!!
Click to expand...

Tropicals are way less hastle

My dad has kept marines for donkeys years, but it always seems too much hastle for my liking, if you don't mind the weekly salt changes though they do look a lot better than tropicals imo

Glad you appear to be getting on top of it Marcel
 
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Les Key said:
Tropical arn't as hard as marine I think you need a chemistry degree to keep marine.
Click to expand...

I was thinking of having a marine tank later too. Good job Mrs_C has a chemistry degree :)

I was gob smacked when I bought a new tank that was 17l and was told that you should have 40-50l per gold fish :suspect:
 
might be worth having a look at UltimateReef - full of good advise and wont judge for not knowing whats happening, they also have a supplier section with there recomended shops, normally one local to everyone...

to be honest even if the water was allready from an active tank id have put the LR (live rock) in first to settle, make sure it isnt resting on sand as that can cause the sand to 'ferment/decompose' and create more ammonia!

if you find ammonia is becoming the bane of your life because of sand (if its a small tank) maybe get a hermit crab or something similar, should turn the sand over fairly frequently...

also do you have any SPS in there as they can break down alot of the chemicals :)

just my 2P...

p.s. where are the rest of the FTS (full tank shots)
 
I've just had to remove a dead Dwarf Gourami from my tank :(
 
SPS (small polyp stony) are corals which in the main are the most fussy of corals regarding water quality, flow and lighting.

what they most certainly don't do is break down chemicals in the way that is being implied:shrug::)
 
cowasaki said:
I was gob smacked when I bought a new tank that was 17l and was told that you should have 40-50l per gold fish :suspect:
Click to expand...

its true;) if they are single tails you would need more than that if they grow to proper sizes....pigs with fins:D
 
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