Another thing I could do with understanding!

ZoZo said:
OK, there is a critique section, people put their images up, other people say 'nice pics' and the OP feels all good about themselves. :love::love::love:

Then along comes someone like me who believes in true critique, I say honestly what can be done differently to improve the image, or what is not working in the image, and I get told 'that's a bit harsh'. :eek: :eek: :eek:

So, what is the purpose of critique for people on TP? :thinking:

Is it to have some massaging of egos and hear that people like the image/s, or is it to learn from the image? Do people only put up images that they think are fab and expect to hear lovely things about them? Or do people genuinely want critique?

If it's the former, that's ok, I just won't critique images, but I guess I could just do with some understanding - you see, from my experience I improve by being told honestly what works and what doesn't with an image, I don't learn and improve from people telling me it's a 'nice pic'. But if that's all that people want, well, I kinda need a heads up here please :help:

I'm a firm believer in 'love your fans, listen to your critics', but here on TP things seem in many cases to stop at 'love your fans'. :love:

Can anyone enlighten me? :thinking:
Click to expand...

I'd rather people be honest. If people like it, cool. If they like it but think if I changed something it'd be better, cool. If they hate it, cool. But tell me why. I won't be offended, promise! LOL If I don't know how to do something, I'll ask (like when you said about light spill on my thread, I asked if I have to take into consideration that I intend to desaturate when I set up - granted I'm really shabby with words at the moment, but you pretty much got what I was asking and answered, so therefore when I do the next shoot, I can take that into account and hopefully get better results).

I'm as guilty as anyone else for saying that I like a pic but not explaining why, I could give all the excuses under the sun (hands are hurting, doped up on meds, words just aren't there cause I'm flaring up, blah blah blah) but that's not really helping anyone.

Yes, I want to boast how much my pics have changed in 9 months...but I want to learn so that they can be at least twice as good in another 9 months. :thumbs:
 
ZoZo said:
OK, there is a critique section, people put their images up, other people say 'nice pics' and the OP feels all good about themselves. :love::love::love:

Then along comes someone like me who believes in true critique, I say honestly what can be done differently to improve the image, or what is not working in the image, and I get told 'that's a bit harsh'. :eek: :eek: :eek:

So, what is the purpose of critique for people on TP? :thinking:

Is it to have some massaging of egos and hear that people like the image/s, or is it to learn from the image? Do people only put up images that they think are fab and expect to hear lovely things about them? Or do people genuinely want critique?

If it's the former, that's ok, I just won't critique images, but I guess I could just do with some understanding - you see, from my experience I improve by being told honestly what works and what doesn't with an image, I don't learn and improve from people telling me it's a 'nice pic'. But if that's all that people want, well, I kinda need a heads up here please :help:

I'm a firm believer in 'love your fans, listen to your critics', but here on TP things seem in many cases to stop at 'love your fans'. :love:

Can anyone enlighten me? :thinking:
Click to expand...



.....stupid comment deleted....
 
As I'm new to photogrpahy critique is always more than welcome, yes it's nice to get a pat on the back as it's rewarding to get a good shot which is why I take photo's in the first place, but, constructive criticism from more experienced togs or another perspective on the shot your taking will help (I Hope!) get more keepers and better shots in the first place.

I would rather post 'bad' photo's and hear why people think they're bad than only post the shots I thi k are more likely to get a good repsonse :)

My 2p...
 
good critique is a skill of observation and use of the english language its also subjective.
 
In my short time on this forum I have posted only a few shots. Why? Maybe I'm just not confident about my own shots. Having said that I would value constructive criticism as the only way to learn and improve is to know what to do to get that better shot.

I have, however, spent much time looking at others postings and learning from the critique that has been offered. Occasionally I will add a comment which suggests I like the shot. That's because I do and I feel confident to offer that at this stage. Maybe I will develop and be able to see more in a shot and offer a full crtique, but I'm not there yet.

From the critiques I have seen I make the followoing observations. Those best received focus on the positives or elements that the viewer likes and then adds something like "I think you could improve it by .........." or "have you thought about doing........"

I have also seen one liners that appear harsh. These tend to be badly received.

In summary I think (Si has already alluded to this) it's how you say something, rather than what you say. Yes, tell it as it is, but recognise you may deter someone from progression if you tell it wrong.

This method is much used in training and I know it as the ***** sandwich. Say something positive (the bottom of the sandwich), add the critical element in a constructive way (the filling) and finally finish with a good comment (the top layer). This way you have lifted the person by the praise but left them with a way to improve. Most of all they feel positive about what they have achieved and where they have to go. If you're on the bottom rung of the ladder that is a long way up.

I'll just rest here at the bottom of the ladder for a while :lol:

Ken
 
Nikon Ken said:
but recognise you may deter someone from progression if you tell it wrong.
Click to expand...

Having a process that is used in training and management is a different context as the majority of feedback, appraisal and critique that is given is neither requested nor sort after by the recipient of the manager or trainer's comments.

This is a very different context because on a forum the person is ASKING for critique. So my question would be why does it become the responsibility of the person identifying how the image could be improve to do things with care, the good news sandwich, rather than the person who puts up the image and REQUESTS critique taking the responsibility to accept the requested critique. (That doesn't mean they have to agree with it, by the way)

I ask this from my own perspective as someone who will happily provide critique, and has the expertise to do so, and simply find myself confused as to why, if I choose to offer critique, it is expected that I will do so with a very tender hand? If an image needs to be dealt with differently next time to improve on the technique, then that's what needs saying, surely.

By the way, I am asking this, saying this I guess, from the perspective of generating healthy debate on the matter. :)
 
I'm trying to give feedback more and more because I feel it's part of the learning process for me as well. If we have a healthy debate on an image then I find it helps me to understand and improve.

It's also nice if someone comments. Nothing worse than sticking up a pic and it slips slowly down the page without response.
 
One of the good points about this site is that you can get honest critique on photography. Some people, however, have a nack of sounding incredibly rude when they hand it out and some have the social skill to critique without offending. For what it's worth Zoe, I would certainly put you down as someone who "sounds" helpful rather than harsh.

Personally I like to comment when I see something I like and I'm less likely to comment on something I don't, unless it is in the critique section or the poster specifically asks for feedback.

If there is a photo and several people have already pointed out the flaws and there are things I like about it I'll always try and point those out.
 
Zozo,

the thing is that people asking for critique can vary in experience from pretty adavanced right down to the rank newbie who's just gone out with his new DSLR and is putting up a shot which he may well be thoroughly proud of (just not knowing any better) and while he's asking for critique, the revelations as to what are actually wrong with the shot can come as a bit of a shock, and be sufficient to deter that person completely from posting again if the critique appears overly blunt and harsh.

Not everyone is looking to turn pro, many people just want to progress in an enjoyable hobby, in fact I'd guess that would be the majority of members here. There's nothing wrong with a little tact in delivering the message, or pointing out what's good about the offering either. The general ethos of critique on TPF. which I think answers you original question, is that the purpose of critique should be to help and to encourage.
 
So you don't want my wife's black TTR... actually I'd rather you bought my A8, I need an estate to lug my gear about now :thumbs:

On the point of crit, I'm all for proper crit, but I pref it to be written in a positive upbeat way, there is nothing more upsetting (in context) than just having your image pulled apart and I know from past threads that that sort of crit stops some newcomers from either posting again or even coming back to TP. I'm not suggesting a fluffy kittens approach, just a pleasant friendly one. It's that that has kept me here for so long. Some crit... even by me, I'm sure, can be taken the wrong way or read differently to how it was intended. Let's try and keep this place a happy one, but still impart what we hope is our valued opinion. :)
 
Can I also say that there is something to be said for using the different areas more effectively too - both from a posting pictures and offering critique pov. Photosharing is for you to post pics and get fair critique and comment, right across the board from 'nice pic' to quite lengthy, positive, helpful replies about how a shot is good and what can be done to improve it next time - if you can manage something more helpful than 'nice shot' everyone benefits.
For the really indepth critique, there is an area for that and you have to be prepared for the fact that the image [single image per thread here] will be studied and critiqued in some detail, both good and bad points.
Finally there is photos for pleasure, where you can post any images you don't want any critique at all on, they really just for sharing fun, personal or silly shots with the community. Ironically, one of the problems with this secton is that many of us [I am guilty as the next] forget its photos for pleasure and still offer small critique :bonk:
 
ZoZo said:
Having a process that is used in training and management is a different context as the majority of feedback, appraisal and critique that is given is neither requested nor sought after by the recipient of the manager or trainer's comments.
Click to expand...

Good morning Zoe,

That's rubbish! As you've already stated, images posted into the critique forums are there because people are willing to receive feedback and 'training/mentoring'. That's no different to someone going into a formal setting and receiving the same thing. The actual subject makes no difference.

ZoZo said:
...why does it become the responsibility of the person identifying how the image could be improve to do things with care...
Click to expand...

It's a simple courtesy... Manners cost nothing but mean everything. Unless someone has specifically said; "Give to me with both barrels Zoe", I think your delivery needs to be toned down. You're not addressing a session of the MPA, RPS, SWPP or any other professional body. You're addressing a group of passionate amateurs for the most part who have a willingness to learn.

If I see your name next to someone's image, I just know that you won't have said anything complimentary. As I've repeatedly said; it's far too easy to be negative. Instead of just telling someone where they went wrong, tell them where they went right too. If they made a complete hash of it, tell someone but be mindful of their sensibilities! Photography doesn't have to be a process in the sense that certain boxes need to be ticked. Your comments are biased as a result of your professional capacity. What worries me is that you'll wade in with your well-meaning but ill-advised comments and make someone pack in photography and then you'll have completely defeated your purpose.

ZoZo said:
...I ask this from my own perspective as someone who will happily provide critique, and has the expertise to do so, and simply find myself confused as to why, if I choose to offer critique, it is expected that I will do so with a very tender hand? If an image needs to be dealt with differently next time to improve on the technique, then that's what needs saying, surely...
Click to expand...

My mother used to say; "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". Nobody's suggesting that you stop giving critique... you just need to learn how do deliver your criticisms correctly.

Si
 
You've got to have crit, and take it, IF you are looking to improve. However, if you're just looking to share your pics, then sometimes 'over crit' can come across as a bit harsh I think.

If you really want a full on critique then you should post in the "In depth critique" forum shouldn't you? And if you really like dishing it out, hang around in there and let rip to your heart's content. :)
 
As a total amateur I sometimes do find it hard to crit. I try to say what I like and don't like about a pic, but sometimes there are just great pictures out there that don't seem wrong to me at all.

There are also certain places I stay away from, such as sport and portraits. I do not feel I could offer anything constructive on EG's portrait thread as I have no idea what makes a good pose, portrait or anything. I feel that under those circumstances it's just better to shut up and watch others.

I am also mindful of people saying whether they want crit or not, yet always try to deliver it in a balanced and unharsh way. I read what I have typed, and if I think I wouldn't like how it was said then I'll edit it. For me the way it's said is all about respect for others and do unto others as you would do yourself.

There are some who I feel are just plain rude, but that's up to them and I just let that go over my head.
 
I've always asked for, expected and appreciated constructive criticism on the forum. This way I have learnt so much and continue to do so. If I want my pics praised I'll put them on flickr or Facebook (that's nice too, by the way).

to that end I always offer something constructive if I can as I just assume that's what people want.
 
Spiritflier said:
Good morning Zoe,

That's rubbish! As you've already stated, images posted into the critique forums are there because people are willing to receive feedback and 'training/mentoring'. That's no different to someone going into a formal setting and receiving the same thing. The actual subject makes no difference.



It's a simple courtesy... Manners cost nothing but mean everything. Unless someone has specifically said; "Give to me with both barrels Zoe", I think your delivery needs to be toned down. You're not addressing a session of the MPA, RPS, SWPP or any other professional body. You're addressing a group of passionate amateurs for the most part who have a willingness to learn.

If I see your name next to someone's image, I just know that you won't have said anything complimentary. As I've repeatedly said; it's far too easy to be negative. Instead of just telling someone where they went wrong, tell them where they went right too. If they made a complete hash of it, tell someone but be mindful of their sensibilities! Photography doesn't have to be a process in the sense that certain boxes need to be ticked. Your comments are biased as a result of your professional capacity. What worries me is that you'll wade in with your well-meaning but ill-advised comments and make someone pack in photography and then you'll have completely defeated your purpose.



My mother used to say; "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". Nobody's suggesting that you stop giving critique... you just need to learn how do deliver your criticisms correctly.

Si
Click to expand...

:lol::lol::lol:

Si, thanks for making me laugh - I love the way you are dishing out what you say that you don't like from me :naughty:

:lol::lol::lol:
 
Maybe threads need voting buttons to automatically count up the nice/yuck/indifferent votes in threads and then actual comments (under exposed/ poor focus/ great composition/ amazing colours) and also in-depth critique can be the thread body?

Personally, as long as nothing gets personal I dont mind, oh and dont insult the subject if its my wife! :)

Nick.
 
Keep it up Zoe, I for one enjoy reading your critiques, very informative and educational.
I don't feel that you come accross as harsh at all, I feel some people are reading more into it than is there.
 
Spiritflier said:
Good morning Zoe,

That's rubbish! As you've already stated, images posted into the critique forums are there because people are willing to receive feedback and 'training/mentoring'. That's no different to someone going into a formal setting and receiving the same thing. The actual subject makes no difference.



It's a simple courtesy... Manners cost nothing but mean everything. Unless someone has specifically said; "Give to me with both barrels Zoe", I think your delivery needs to be toned down. You're not addressing a session of the MPA, RPS, SWPP or any other professional body. You're addressing a group of passionate amateurs for the most part who have a willingness to learn.

If I see your name next to someone's image, I just know that you won't have said anything complimentary. As I've repeatedly said; it's far too easy to be negative. Instead of just telling someone where they went wrong, tell them where they went right too. If they made a complete hash of it, tell someone but be mindful of their sensibilities! Photography doesn't have to be a process in the sense that certain boxes need to be ticked. Your comments are biased as a result of your professional capacity. What worries me is that you'll wade in with your well-meaning but ill-advised comments and make someone pack in photography and then you'll have completely defeated your purpose.



My mother used to say; "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". Nobody's suggesting that you stop giving critique... you just need to learn how do deliver your criticisms correctly.

Si
Click to expand...

Really? I think in this situation my mum would say "Stop being so wet, grow a pair and man up. It's only the internet and if you find this sort of thing hard then quite frankly how do you cope when something important happens in "the real world".

But that's just my mum.;)
 
ZoZo said:
:lol::lol::lol:

Si, thanks for making me laugh - I love the way you are dishing out what you say that you don't like from me :naughty:

:lol::lol::lol:
Click to expand...

Hi Zoe,

You asked for 'understanding' and I've tried to give you just that... If you think it's funny, that's very sad! I've tried to be reasonable and rational in my responses to you but you've singularly failed to do me the courtesy of replying in the same manner.

It's blatently obvious that subtlety is lost on you, hence the more direct approach with my last post. ;)

Each time you go to post a critique, try to think first and re-read your comments before you hit the 'submit reply' button!

Regards,
Si
 
slimboy fat said:
Really? I think in this situation my mum would say "Stop being so wet, grow a pair and man up. It's only the internet and if you find this sort of thing hard then quite frankly how do you cope when something important happens in "the real world".

But that's just my mum.;)
Click to expand...

It's far too easy to be a keyboard warrior... different if it's said directly! :razz:

Personally, I don't give a flying **** what people think of my images so I don't worry too much about critique of my own work... If I don't agree with what's been said, I'll say so and if I think it's worth learning from, that's precisely what I'll try to do.

All I've been trying to do is stick up for those who'd like critique but would like it done in a polite fashion. Where's the harm in that? :thinking:

I've never had a commission thrown back in my face so I guess I'm doing something right.

Cheers,
Si
 
I'm agreeing with everything spiritflier is saying! :clap:

Zoe, I'm sure your intentions are just, but your delivery of crit, is IMO, a bit lot on the negative side!

Pointing out the negatives all the time, isn't the only way to improve someones photography, nor is telling someone their photos are brilliant when they aren't! There needs to be balance, say what's wrong with a picture, then say what's right, giving someone a pick me up comment is very important to keep people motivated, this is something I haven't seen you do yet....!! :shake: I'm not saying you have never done it, just that I've never seen you do it myself!

I'm someone who welcomes crit of all types with open arms. I nearly always ask for crit on my photos from people of all abilities and ask people to be as honest as they can be, not to hold back and say exactly what they think. However I'm very thick skinned, whereas other members of this forum might not be....

I don't want this all to sound like a Zoe bashing, I genuinely see you as a very helpful and esteemed member of the forum, but if you're going to be (perceived as being) so negative about peoples images all the time, I think you'll quickly find yourself being ignored! Which would be a shame and won't help anyone!!
 
Spiritflier said:
Each time you go to post a critique, try to think first and re-read your comments before you hit the 'submit reply' button!
Click to expand...

Simon, just because I choose not to answer your lengthy critique of my character in no way suggests that I am ignoring your perspective, in fact, I commented that it was an interesting perspective some pages back.

My laughter comes from comments such as yours above, as you are enjoying telling me how I should do things whilst you yourself adopt the approach you tell me I ought to avoid. That's what has made me laugh. But I say that with a light heart, not in criticism. :D

Come on, lighten up, this isn't a battle to prove who is right or who is wrong, it's simply an opportunity to have a healthy debate on a matter relevant to helping people improve. :love:
 
ZoZo said:
Simon, just because I choose not to answer your lengthy critique of my character in no way suggests that I am ignoring your perspective, in fact, I commented that it was an interesting perspective some pages back.

My laughter comes from comments such as yours above, as you are enjoying telling me how I should do things whilst you yourself adopt the approach you tell me I ought to avoid. That's what has made me laugh. But I say that with a light heart, not in criticism. :D

Come on, lighten up, this isn't a battle to prove who is right or who is wrong, it's simply an opportunity to have a healthy debate on a matter relevant to helping people improve. :love:
Click to expand...

Well said. :)
 
sometimes i feel the "i like this picture" is all you can say, as someone just getting into photography, i look some pics , and think , "if i can't shoot anything better i am in no position to comment".

i find , looking for the bits i don't like and talking about them a lot easier thank talking about things i like, so perhaps this where the negatives can out weigh the positives.

i like harsh crit myself, i dont want anyone to pull any punches as there is no other way to learn, but like they say " a spoonfull of sugar helps the medicine go down"
 
Having been to a few of the "professional body" meetings where members crit each others images believe me when I say that this place is like a WI tea party in comparison, heck even I had to grow a pair on a particularly savage evening and I'm a girlie! :)

I do get the point that a lot of our members have no wish to be professional photographers but that point aside, I bet they want to take pics like one?

Well, if we all want to improve then we have to learn. In my little world that means reading books, magazines looking at depth at the images that surround us every day. I've just been in Debenhams and there are a couple af amazing tight head shots in there today and guess what we were just discussing on another thread. It involves training and at the end of that training session then I expect crit. I expect to find out how well I am applying what I have just learned.

I also find it very difficult to crit images when there are half a dozen "nice pics" comments and yet I'm seeing glaring and basic errors that really do need fixing before the poster goes doing any more like it! I end up following the, if you can't say anything nice and not saying anything at all because I'd be the one looking like a grumpy mare.

And so the poster misses out on what should be a valuable lesson but I won't put myself in the firing line. Been there, done that. Not repeating.
 
ZoZo said:
...Come on, lighten up, this isn't a battle to prove who is right or who is wrong, it's simply an opportunity to have a healthy debate on a matter relevant to helping people improve. :love:
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Hi Zoe,

I'm the most laid back person on the planet... Honest! ;)

Like I said before; I didn't want to pick a fight but like you, I will say what I believe (I just happen to think that my way is er... different). :D

I'm off to make the most of the sunshine and my day off so I'm going to meet some friends and wander around Aberystwyth prom for a bit.

I'll look you up at Focus on Sunday and I'll even let you treat me to a coffee! :)

Regards,
Si
 
Form me it's very simple - I want to improve, and I want to know what people think of my images, when I post them.

So, "Nice image" doesn't really help at all - why is it nice, what do you like about it? What don't you like about it?

That said, although I am thick skinned, and can quite happily and gladly receive proper constructive crit to help me learn, just negative comments don't help either. If you are posting some negative crit I think you have to word it in such a way as to try to avoid upsetting someone (that's never happened to me but I have seen it happen) which could then damage that persons learning process and even put them off altogether. Remember it is very disheartening when you think you have taken a great image but then someone tells you its rubbish. Telling them where they went wrong and what they can do to put it right is much better.

Zoe, keep the crit coming, tell it like it is, but (and I'm not saying you have already) try not to upset anyone at the same time!
 
If the poster has included C&C welcome then so be it, constructive etc etc .
But sometimes you open a post with a pic and its not a picture area that you share, and so you may not appreciate the technicalities of what the poster is trying to achieve. It may be a fine picture ascetically but technically average. So you might add a simple comment, as it at least acknowledges you have looked, rather than "Viewed 300 times, comments 2" which has also been mentioned before.
 
Do we really need to put C&C Welcome on photo's posted in the critique section, I thought that is why it was there and why I've put photo's in that section?
 
On the subject of critique my recent picture of kelly and Sam really failed to garner any feedback - and I would have loved some :(

Zoe gave a fair critique - thanks Zoe. Although I never quite understood why you didn't follow up my response. Anyway, it does make me wonder why I bother - and I critique a hell of a lot of other peoples images - as honestly as I can. It's give and take folks :nono:
 
CT said:
just taking the bird forum as an example, because that's where I post most, it's very common to get two or three pages of 'great shot' type posts for an image which is clearly unsharp and/or exhibiting gross wb or other issues. .
Click to expand...

It's perfectly possible for something to be a great shot and for it to fail pretty much any technical standards.

Or at least that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
 
I see both sides of the argument. Whilst I want honesty I also like it to be put over in a way that is reasoned and polite. I don't think Zoe's comments are particularly bad but I do respect what Si is saying too. What is written on a keyboard can often come across differently to different people so it is I suppose always worth checking what you write.

I've reread some of my posts and felt the urge to edit a few times!!
 
EOS_JD said:
I see both sides of the argument. Whilst I want honesty I also like it to be put over in a way that is reasoned and polite. I don't think Zoe's comments are particularly bad but I do respect what Si is saying too. What is written on a keyboard can often come across differently to different people so it is I suppose always worth checking what you write.

I've reread some of my posts and felt the urge to edit a few times!!
Click to expand...

:agree:

I stick with my ***** sandwich approach. It's for all interface whether in a business context or any other. There is a greater need to balance the feelings of others and the wish to give criticism. It helps is that criticism is constructive but is even better if given with some positives.

The advent of texting and short messages on email and forums results in a lot of messages coming across as rude. It's probably not intended to be rude.

Before I respond to anyone I always try to put myself in their shoes.

Don't stop the critique but we all need to look at the way we do it.

Ken
 
When I was shooting for Sunday sport newspapers the picture ed used the mantra if you like it, it's good.

I'm 107 years old now and still apply the same ethos.

The material fact of photography is that even with either the right or wrong critique some can't improve as it's not the natural talent thing. However as long as people enjoy it great.

Example - I can play Metallica albums note for note on my guitar but I never wrote it, the real talent did....

DG.
 
Time to throw my two penneth worth in..
Now,i am nowhere near the standard that most people on here are at with their photography,and tend to post very little..
I love reading the critique on pics,as it is a great way to learn more about the technical aspects of photography.
However-I think problems can arise mainly due to very different attitudes people have to their photos.Some people are looking to take their photography skills to a whole new level/get the best shots "technically" etc.
However-For a lot of people,a great photo is simply a pleasing image-regardless of whether its exposure is bang on,or whether the dof is a little shallow etc,and aiming crit at little aspects of the photo they quite clearly are rather proud of is never going to be well received,while those who are looking to take their technique "to the top" will appreciate such things..
Face to face-This wouldnt be a problem..But as mentioned here,the internet (among other methods of comms) is awful at getting the emotion behind the words across-What can seem harsh as hell on a forum is often not meant that way at all.
I have no problem with "nice image!" etc,although the simple "yuk" was perhaps mildly irritating... Perhaps could at least say what is is you find disagreeable.
Anyway...My ramblings make as little sense as usual,so i shall simply say to the OP-Keep on with the Crit!-Welcomed or not,it always seems to be very honest and helpful. :thumbs:
 
i was on a forum the same
just point swapping
nice pic, good dof, good pov etc

better to crit exactly as YOU see it....notwithstanding technical error some shots are not that appealing to everyone
especially the mega pp ones
 
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