Another thing I could do with understanding!

ZoZo

ZoZo

Suspended / Banned
Messages
515
Edit My Images
No
OK, there is a critique section, people put their images up, other people say 'nice pics' and the OP feels all good about themselves. :love::love::love:

Then along comes someone like me who believes in true critique, I say honestly what can be done differently to improve the image, or what is not working in the image, and I get told 'that's a bit harsh'. :eek: :eek: :eek:

So, what is the purpose of critique for people on TP? :thinking:

Is it to have some massaging of egos and hear that people like the image/s, or is it to learn from the image? Do people only put up images that they think are fab and expect to hear lovely things about them? Or do people genuinely want critique?

If it's the former, that's ok, I just won't critique images, but I guess I could just do with some understanding - you see, from my experience I improve by being told honestly what works and what doesn't with an image, I don't learn and improve from people telling me it's a 'nice pic'. But if that's all that people want, well, I kinda need a heads up here please :help:

I'm a firm believer in 'love your fans, listen to your critics', but here on TP things seem in many cases to stop at 'love your fans'. :love:

Can anyone enlighten me? :thinking:
 
Yes I can enlighten you...!!!!

KEEP TELLING IT AS IT IS...!!!!!!


I for one find your comments a breath of fresh air... And would like more people to comment as you do...


Please keep commenting as you have been...



Your post is one reason I comment less and less on threads atm..

Regards

MD
 
it all depends on the person really, i havent posted anything here and i havent posted anything on my flickr in a while as im still working on alot of my techniques.

However if i do post something i would expect people to speak honestly and be as harsh as needed but not everyone has that idea :(
 
I have to say that it's always nice to hear good comments about your photos, but I agree with you Zoe; if you post your photos in the critique section, you should expect them to be critiqued.

I am a firm believer that criticism should be of the constructive variety, otherwise none of us will learn or improve, but even then some people become defensive. Perhaps posters have forgotten that we have a photo sharing section if that's what they want to do with their images, and are posting their images in the critique section by mistake.

But I have a sneaky suspicion that you may also be right in that some people are just hoping to have their egos massaged a little. ;)
 
Please carry on :thumbs: its EXACTLY what is needed, you might get the odd :dummy: but its rare.

Now we just need you to start shooting sports ;)
 
I have experienced the same sort of reaction as you Zoe - I do always try and point out bits I like and the bits I don't like and offer a balanced view point - I am still relatively new to the business of photography and so hey my opinions may be wrong, but they are still my opinions!

I think it does depend what people want to get out of the forum - I view it as a place to learn and so 1 detailed critique is worth a thousand one liners!!!! So as Dave says please keep it up!
 
I shoot cycling for fun! but not enough sadly as I don't have enough time (and the damned Tour de France falling in the middle of the wedding season is a right b****r!!!!) And I don't shoot sports for income so I would struggle to call myself anything close to a sports photographer.

So anyway, I'm not going nuts then ... well maybe I am, but that's nothing to do with TP .... YET :lol: The critique section is for, well, critiquing images? :eek: Revolutionary stuff going on here, guys :lol:

Maybe some people have forgotten there is a show your images section?

Oh, and Frenzied, by posting you'll find that your technique improves massively, honestly!
 
Hi Zoe,

I think it may have something to do with you being a 'traditional', 'old school', professional photographer rather than just a talented amateur... I've noticed that you tend to look at an image with a very structured and rigid eye that doesn't always sit well with the perceptions of either an amateur or dare I say, semi-professional photographer. :)

I've also noticed this in other fora on the internet. Those who make a full-time living from portrait photography in whatever form, tend to view images as a kind of process where they're attempting to tick boxes rather than simply appreciate what's before them.

I can't honestly say that I've ever read a comment from you where you've actually simply said something along the lines of; "I really like this photograph" without any caveats.

I don't believe that honest critique of an image is wrong; it's more a case of 'not what you say but the way that you say it'. I'm also of the belief that your intentions are pure and meant with goodwill so please don't think I'm trying to criticise you simply because I can.

Show us what you can do Zoe... I've seen your work away from here and it's beautiful but not everyone will take the time to visit another site or click a link and let's face it, the best lessons are the ones learnt by example.

Best wishes,
Si
 
Richard, I was taught that one of the best ways to improve was to learn to critique - your own images and those of others - as you then start to notice things, so yep, keep it up yourself too! You'll be amazed in a few months time when you look back at work you are producing now and see how much you've developed in a short period of time.
 
ZoZo said:
Can anyone enlighten me? :thinking:
Click to expand...

your tarring everyone with the same brush.. OK someone hasnt liked your critique.. equally someone else will appreciate it.. thats the way forums work....

I wouldnt try to work it out.. waste of time :)
 
It happens time and time again Zo and we've had countless threads on the subject of critiique, what it's for, how it should be done. I doubt anything will change, I think most sensible people value critique for who's giving it, rather than what's said. Most of the people who object to a good honest critique given in the right spirit wouldn't know good work if it bit 'em on the bum. ;)
 
I know my thread has possibly inspired this thread :)

But......just to reconfirm to everyone, incase they miss it in every single opening post I ever make with my photography....

CRIT LIKE MAD, DON'T HOLD BACK, AND KICK ME IN THE BALLS - EACH AND EVERY TIME! Everyone knows I like good proper feedback, I like being told what's wrong, and I like listening to it and trying to improve as a result.....and also, I like to crit my own images when I can spot the flaws (which isn't always)....

Again, just for clarity, never hold back with me.

G.
 
Si, unlike many people, I have my site very visible, and anyone who wants to can go and look. And those that do will see that my work is anything but rigid.

But this thread isn't about me, it's about critiquing. I make my living out of photography, I've won prestigious awards, I've exhibited in a major art gallery, I speak at art galleries and other venues around the country. I'm happy to share my knowledge from a professional perspective, but if all people want to hear is 'nice pic' when there is learning to be gained instead, well, that's just not me. So I'm looking for the understanding. If it's the ego massaging, I'll leave that to others, it's not my bag.
 
CT said:
It happens time and time again Zo and we've had countless threads on the subject of critiique, what it's for, how it should be done. I doubt anything will change, I think most sensible people value critique for who's giving it, rather than what's said. Most of the people who object to a good honest critique given in the right spirit wouldn't know good work if it bit 'em on the bum. ;)
Click to expand...

I was going to type something long winded and explanatory....but basically, what he said :D ;)
 
Gary, your thread did, but not you personally, as I saw you taking on board the mix of perspectives.

Thanks guys, interesting to hear your thoughts here.
 
The critique section has got diluted over the years as it has got bigger. It should all be constructive critique being given but that takes effort and it takes someone with enough confidence to say it. result is flickr type comments that don't really relate to the merits of the picture.

We all want quality critique on our pictures but there are only a few that give it and a lot that post pictures and just sit back and wait. You often get people saying critique should be better but if you look at their past posts they don't give any themselves.

I have the odd day or two where I try and say constructive things in the landscapes section but there are too many posts to keep on top of it. So please do add some real critique whenever you can. Harsh but polite is good in my book if it's warranted :)
 
This one is cyclical and as mentioned has been raised many times before :)

Critique is good, right and welcomed by most folk!

But as said above its important how its delivered :)

Constructive is good!

A recent comment to one shot on here simply said 'Yuk'

Now that is hardly grown up is it?

However if folk want to simply say 'Nice shot' well thats just fine by me :)

Its all in the delivery :)
 
ZoZo said:
If it's the ego massaging, I'll leave that to others, it's not my bag.
Click to expand...

THe trouble is, your expecting people who like a photo for what it is, and who can't spot the flaws, or offer crit, not to participate in the forums. This is wrong for several reasons.

1: By just looking and interacting, even if it is to say nice pic, you are constantly absorbing. Eventually you will gain an understanding which allows you to start being more in depth with your crit...

2: If someone is new to photography and perhaps has low self esteem, a lack of confidence but a lot of talent, then often a nice pat on the back goes a long way.

3: The very nature of TP is friendly. It's about being open, relaxed and chilling out whilst we discuss our photography....it's like a social club where pro's and am's mix (and the distinction is disgusting too imo, we are all photographers and we can ALL do it).

I'm very much from the school of thought that inspiring confidence in others is just as important as pointing out the flaws in a photo, *if* progress is being made.

G.
 
That's a good point, actually, Gary. So yep, there is room for the 'nice pic' comment to a point. But I guess for me it's where that point ends.
 
ZoZo said:
That's a good point, actually, Gary. So yep, there is room for the 'nice pic' comment to a point. But I guess for me it's where that point ends.
Click to expand...

Nice photo's I like

no2

no4
no6
no7

well done

sound familer...?


md
 
ZoZo said:
That's a good point, actually, Gary. So yep, there is room for the 'nice pic' comment to a point. But I guess for me it's where that point ends.
Click to expand...

When I first joined, I jumped right in and said "nice pic" to more or less everything. And I remember loving everything I saw, it's like a love affair started and I just was amazed by everything. Light trails = awesome. Selective colour = holy ****, I would sell my mother for those skills. HDR = wow awesome, looks like a video game...and so on.

It took me I would say 6 months to a year of struggling to pluck up the courage to start admitting I was seeing faults and things I no longer thought looked great. I don't think I would have ever seen those flaws though if I had not been giving out all those 'nice pic' awards :D

G.
 
My thoughts

if you think a pic is nice.. then say its nice.. theres nothing wrong with that and it will be a sad day when there is...

if you think a pic is yuk then say yuk.. who decides if its grown up.. its descriptive enough for me.. tells me the viewer thinks its yuk

if you want to critique a pic and give valuable feedback then go for it.. most will appreciate it.. some wont..

just dont expect everyone to jump up and down thanking you for publicly telling them there pics are crap... even though they asked for critique

I have had reactions from people saying I am being unfair... it doesnt mean i threaten not to critique anymore....

my point is... you will get different reactions from your critiques.. you cant expect everyone to be pleased.. thats life... get on with it or get off it.. but no point complaining about it..


All just IMHO of course :)
 
EdinburghGary said:
THe trouble is, your expecting people who like a photo for what it is, and who can't spot the flaws, or offer crit, not to participate in the forums. This is wrong for several reasons.

1: By just looking and interacting, even if it is to say nice pic, you are constantly absorbing. Eventually you will gain an understanding which allows you to start being more in depth with your crit...

2: If someone is new to photography and perhaps has low self esteem, a lack of confidence but a lot of talent, then often a nice pat on the back goes a long way.

3: The very nature of TP is friendly. It's about being open, relaxed and chilling out whilst we discuss our photography....it's like a social club where pro's and am's mix (and the distinction is disgusting too imo, we are all photographers and we can ALL do it).

I'm very much from the school of thought that inspiring confidence in others is just as important as pointing out the flaws in a photo, *if* progress is being made.

G.
Click to expand...

I understand where you're coming from with that Gary, but just taking the bird forum as an example, because that's where I post most, it's very common to get two or three pages of 'great shot' type posts for an image which is clearly unsharp and/or exhibiting gross wb or other issues. Finally you point out the issues and instantly become the villain of the piece. I'll plead 'Guilty' here and now to doing less of it for just that reason, and when I do I tend to offer critique to those I know who will accept it in the spirit in which it's given.
 
Dark Star said:
This one is cyclical and as mentioned has been raised many times before :)

Critique is good, right and welcomed by most folk!

But as said above its important how its delivered :)

Constructive is good!

A recent comment to one shot on here simply said 'Yuk'

Now that is hardly grown up is it?

However if folk want to simply say 'Nice shot' well thats just fine by me :)

Its all in the delivery :)
Click to expand...

I'm fighting the urge so very hard .... there is a very naughty part of me that wants to do the one liner 'Yuk' right back at ya! :naughty:

See, I'm resisting! :lol:
 
ZoZo said:
Not complaining, simply seeking understanding. :D
Click to expand...

you dont like the fact that some people take real critique the wrong way and you may stop doing critique.... sorry came accross like complaining to me.... must have read it wrong... sorry :)
 
:) Resist away!

If someone doesn't like an image I post then I want to know WHY!

Likewise if they like an image I post I'd love to know WHY!

However Nice pic and no reason is preferable to Yuk and no reason

Well in my mind anyway :)
 
nice photo wont help me improve i prefer honesty

have a go at my robin i took today if you like

JC7_9786.gif
 
Dark Star said:
:)

However Nice pic and no reason is preferable to Yuk and no reason

Well in my mind anyway :)
Click to expand...

Quite right "Yuk" is no way to criticise an image without a given reason.
 
CT said:
I understand where you're coming from with that Gary, but just taking the bird forum as an example, because that's where I post most, it's very common to get two or three pages of 'great shot' type posts for an image which is clearly unsharp and/or exhibiting gross wb or other issues. Finally you point out the issues and instantly become the villain of the piece. I'll plead 'Guilty' here and now to doing less of it for just that reason, and when I do I tend to offer critique to those I know who will accept it in the spirit in which it's given.
Click to expand...

I hear you mate. I definitely think there is room for improvement in the accepting crit area. Some people really don't like it.

G.
PS - Good timing ;)
 
Crikey, I'm not a bird or wildlife photographer! But with my untrained eye with regards to the subject matter I'd say that the twig cutting across the robin's head is distracting, and the eye isn't sharp - however I do like the effect that the level of separation has had on the background.

howzat? :D
 
ZoZo said:
Si, unlike many people, I have my site very visible, and anyone who wants to can go and look. And those that do will see that my work is anything but rigid.

But this thread isn't about me, it's about critiquing. I make my living out of photography, I've won prestigious awards, I've exhibited in a major art gallery, I speak at art galleries and other venues around the country. I'm happy to share my knowledge from a professional perspective, but if all people want to hear is 'nice pic' when there is learning to be gained instead, well, that's just not me. So I'm looking for the understanding. If it's the ego massaging, I'll leave that to others, it's not my bag.
Click to expand...

Zoe,

With respect, I think you missed the point of my post. :)

Your own signature says "It's all about me, me, me, me, me" and that tends to be what I see in your critiques. In many ways, your critiques are actually criticisms (there is a difference). I understand that you genuinely want to pass on some of your own hard-won skills and you're most certainly to be commended for it but your hard critique also has a habit of drawing attention to yourself rather than the points you're trying to make.

'Man management' and 'people skills' should be fundamentally simple things to grasp but they're not. You have an abundance of technical know-how but I feel you lack the finer niceties. Anyone can tear an image to shreds but it takes a defined skill to be able to impart criticism whilst encouraging someone at the same time. We used to call it the 'slap-and-lift' method... First you tell someone where they're going wrong and then you end on a high by telling that person what they did right! Since most people will latch onto the last thing you say rather than the first; they're more likely to come away from the encounter feeling that the exchange has been mutually beneficial.

I make my living from dealing with people in very dodgy situations (they usually want to knock my block off ;)) but because I carefully adapt to the situations I'm placed in and turn them to my advantage, I usually manage to end the encounter with a minimum of fuss and bother. My work involves dealing with people who try to abstract electricity in domestic, commercial and criminal environments... I disconnect cannabis farms (usually in Liverpool) at the rate of about 3 a week! My point is that it's very easy to go in heavy-handed and cause problems that you probably didn't think would occur and I'm guessing that by the very nature of your original question, the same thoughts had occurred to you too albeit in a different and much more benign scenario.

Please don't stop offering critique to the posters in this forum but I would suggest that you be mindful of the fact that the vast majority aren't and never will be professionals (and probably don't even want to be). The points you raise in your critiques are valid... I certainly don't dispute that. I'm simply saying that the end doesn't alway justify the means.

We're all on a learning curve here Zoe... whether we realise it or not. :)

Best Wishes,
Si
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top