Annabel Williams Bespoke Course - worth it ?

**I am in no way affiliated with this course**

Hey, training is expensive, no matter what the field.

We have a lot of courses on offer through work, and many are 2-3days at a cost of 1.5-2k€ per day - and higher. Are they worth that, hard to say. Its more then the material you leave with. Its the WAY they deliver the material, in a way that allows you to apply immediately and understand fully.

I am not commenting on whether this particular course is value for money, I have not looked into it.

When you factor in renting a room in a conference centre for 20 people - likely about £150-200 per day including food, covering the trainers costs (salary, medical, travel etc) then tax on top.

In addition, there is the money for the course development. Again, I dont know how much time was spent making this course, but material development takes time and effort.

Another thing you are paying for is experience - and this ALWAYS comes at a price.

Look at how much MPs make for after dinner speeches, then lets see if 9k is a lot ;)

It sounds a lot, but really is about the going rate for good, focussed delivery of a way of working type training.
 
Some of you are looking at the cost of the bespoke course all wrong. You would be a fool if you did not think that £9000 was not a lot of money and yes there are cheaper courses out there, but Annabel is talking sense. If you were to implement what was being taught on the year long journey with Annabel’s team then the chances are you would get that money back and more. You would also would be equipped with the knowledge to keep building your business.

Another way of looking at it, if the course was too expensive then I would not keep bumping into happy bespoke members.

Also if there are people out there who are considering doing the Bespoke course and are looking for a cheaper option beware of cheap imitations.

I attended a course at Annabel Williams studio last year and I sat next to a couple of photographers one of who kept asking me questions as he did not understand what Annabel was explaining. Some things were so simple that any photographer worth there salt who claimed to have the experience he had should have know or easily understood.

I am now shocked to see that these two guys have started there own training company (obviously modelled on Annabel’s.) and are writing a column in one of the top mags. In my opinion it would be a greater cost in money giving away less to people like this. If they are good enough to train other then why are they attending courses at Annabel’s only to pass on a diluted version of the training.

Just one more thing. Why do I have to keep reading threads on forums on how expensive Annabel Williams courses are. If you want to go on one and can't afford it they either do something about it or stop complaining to others on the forums. She obviously has a good business and can charge what she does therefore they are not to expensive.

And I will say again you should start earning more after her course. I have been on two weekend courses at Annabell studio and I have got my money back due to attending. Prior to going on the courses I would have been happy to take £50 for a portrait sitting a couple of weeks ago I sold four photos for £700. £700 order will be small for most photographers out there but for me that was a great increase in takings (Thanks to the people at The Annabel Williams Studio)

I still can't understand how people think the course is expensive. When I was a lawyer I paid £1500 to attend two day courses to listen to people telling me stuff that I could have just read out of a book at home.
 
Kieron Nevison said:
I am now shocked to see that these two guys have started there own training company (obviously modelled on Annabel’s.) and are writing a column in one of the top mags. In my opinion it would be a greater cost in money giving away less to people like this. If they are good enough to train other then why are they attending courses at Annabel’s only to pass on a diluted version of the training.
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When I spoke to the sales people at Annabel Williams, they were happy to tell me that some of the courses are run by people who were formerly students.
Kieron Nevison said:
Just one more thing. Why do I have to keep reading threads on forums on how expensive Annabel Williams courses are. If you want to go on one and can't afford it they either do something about it or stop complaining to others on the forums.
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I don't think anyone is complaining, Kieron. And it's not a case of not being able to afford it. It's a discussion about whether or not 9k for the Bespoke course is a worthwhile investment. You seem to be of the opinion that is, which is great.

Cheers,
Keith
 
keith.l said:
When I spoke to the sales people at Annabel Williams, they were happy to tell me that some of the courses are run by people who were formerly students.
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I'm aware that former students teach at Annabel's, infact on of the courses I attended the practical was delivered by two former Bespoke members. But what I was saying was ,there are people out there starting up training companies who are unlikely to give good value for money as they do not have the knowledge or experiece.
 
£9k is a lot of money - but if you don't earn many more times that at the end of the year, and certainly throughout the following year, you've either not done what was suggested or you're just plain crap IMO

Most courses are worth their money, I've attended quite a few (though none of AW's) and ALL have been worth it both in increased knowledge and income - if you apply what's taught

It seems to me that this course gives you a defined goal (even if you largely generate that yourself), and in a defined timescale too. Most people fail in the 'planning' stage - as in - they have a plan in their heads but they keep going off-track and that holds them back (Hell I'm guilty of that too!:bonk:)

If you're going to fork out £9k I can't help thinking you will do the course properly - in which case it'll work for you if you then apply it

If the choice for your spare £9k was more gear or the course and you really want to be a Pro - then go on the course - but for the sake of future arguments... run a blog we can all read :D

DD
 
Kieron Nevison said:
I'm aware that former students teach at Annabel's, infact on of the courses I attended the practical was delivered by two former Bespoke members. But what I was saying was ,there are people out there starting up training companies who are unlikely to give good value for money as they do not have the knowledge or experiece.
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Well, yeah, but that's kinda one rule for us and a different rule for them. You seem to be saying that if former students teach at Annabel's premises, it's okay, but if they do it on their own premises, then they have neither the knowledge nor the experience.
 
DiddyDave said:
£9k is a lot of money - but if you don't earn many more times that at the end of the year, and certainly throughout the following year, you've either not done what was suggested or you're just plain crap IMO
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Many times 9k is a hell of lot extra to earn in a single year from attending one course.
DiddyDave said:
Most courses are worth their money, I've attended quite a few (though none of AW's) and ALL have been worth it both in increased knowledge and income - if you apply what's taught
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Agreed. And though this course is expensive, it may indeed pay for itself. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the limited amount of info available and I don't really like the sales technique. But I'm genuinely interested to hear feedback from attendees. If I don't attend this course, I may well attend another.
DiddyDave said:
If the choice for your spare £9k was more gear or the course and you really want to be a Pro - then go on the course -
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I agree, I don't undervalue training. But on the otherhand I'm not going to fall into the trap of thinking training can do the job for me. 9k is a lot of money for a training budget. There are competing products, and I want to choose the best.

Maybe I should advertise for an experienced pro who would accept 9k to take me on as a trainee/second shooter for a season. That kind of training would be pretty useful, too.

DiddyDave said:
but for the sake of future arguments... run a blog we can all read :D
DD
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That would be great. dseered mentioned in another post that he might be doing just that. I hope he does.
 
All the training in the world will not take photographs for you.
don't matter how much or little you pay out, You got to do it all by yourself
So If you've not got the eye for a photo you'll make nowt.

Making money on photograph is very difficult, your no better than your last shot. You have to stand out, everyones dad thinks they can take the wedding photos, and most of them do.

So be who you are. before you try to be something your not.
 
keith.l said:
Well, yeah, but that's kinda one rule for us and a different rule for them. You seem to be saying that if former students teach at Annabel's premises, it's okay, but if they do it on their own premises, then they have neither the knowledge nor the experience.
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I disagree, many people can bring different things to the party, each a specialist in their field ? Whereas to set up a Specialised Training company when you are a Jack of all and Master of none is a bit short sighted.

If you get the right people in the right place at the right time, to teach the right things to the people that have paid for it then the formula works, I am doing Bespoke, will I get asked to teach on it, well I would love to but will I, probably not as I my specialist subject ad my career for the last 20 years is fashion, in various forms - it may be relevent at some point though.

My last course was The Digital Workflow with Stewart Randall, I wrote about on here, he taught me how to use Lightroom, I had never before even seen LR2, yet when I downloaded the trial at felt at home right away, his style of teaching was perfect, not sure if he had taught before Bespoke but he had done Bespoke and had been developed by the team, brilliant and highly recommended.

I also remember writing that I had read a few reviews, those that had loved the courses, those that had been blown away by them and of course, those that had never been.

I am busting my ass to pay for Bespoke, I mean, really, as yet I have enough for 2 months, yet I am contracted for the full amount, I will do it, I will be succesfull, I will not fail - I have spoken to ex Bespoke Graduates, all the ones I have spoken to are full of enthusiasm.

So, as I promised, I will keep you up to date, I am pig headed and like getting my own way, I will listen to reason though, I have done my sums and for Professional training I see this course as value for money, lets face it you could make 10ks worth of mistakes misspelling a your company name on all the stationary and branding !
 
Kieron Nevison said:
Just one more thing. Why do I have to keep reading threads on forums on how expensive Annabel Williams courses are. If you want to go on one and can't afford it they either do something about it or stop complaining to others on the forums. She obviously has a good business and can charge what she does therefore they are not to expensive.
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You don't 'have to' read this thread :shrug: the fact that you've got this far into it means that you've obviously wanted to read it. If I come across a thread that is obviously about a topic that I'd rather not read or become involved with I tend to just skip past it.
I can't see anybody complaining either. There are a few people discussing whether or not they feel the course is good value for money, but that's about it. Affordability isn't the issue either, again, it's the 'value for money' side of things that is being explored.

Kieron Nevison said:
I still can't understand how people think the course is expensive. When I was a lawyer I paid £1500 to attend two day courses to listen to people telling me stuff that I could have just read out of a book at home.
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You can't really qualify the expense of this course based on the fact that you were obviosuly overcharged on another can you? Your point reinforces my opinion that there are A LOT of courses out there where the fees are way too high in comparison with what you actually get for your money. People have a hard job differentiating between the ones that are and the ones that aren't. Hence this whole thread. It's not good enough to solely rely on the testimonials of former attendees as they sometimes have a tendancy to be biased in order to justify their investment (I know this from experience).

Kieron Nevison said:
I attended a course at Annabel Williams studio last year and I sat next to a couple of photographers one of who kept asking me questions as he did not understand what Annabel was explaining. Some things were so simple that any photographer worth there salt who claimed to have the experience he had should have know or easily understood.
I am now shocked to see that these two guys have started there own training company (obviously modelled on Annabel’s.) and are writing a column in one of the top mags. In my opinion it would be a greater cost in money giving away less to people like this. If they are good enough to train other then why are they attending courses at Annabel’s only to pass on a diluted version of the training.
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So, presumeably the 18k that these two guys spent between them on the course was a waste of money :shrug: Are you saying that even after paying the fees and attending the course, along with the aftercare, they aren't good enough to write a column in a magazine or pass their knowledge on to others?
 
Kieron Nevison said:
sorry I did not make it clear. the guys did not do the full course only a one day course.
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That's not bad going then, which one was it? Might have a pop at that one myself :naughty: :lol:

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this discussion as it seems to going round in circles now. To those that do go on this course (or any other for that matter) I wish you the very best of fortune, especially the likes of dseered who is busting a gut to do it and not just doing it because they have a spare 9k in their back pocket :)
 
dseered said:
I am busting my ass to pay for Bespoke, I mean, really, as yet I have enough for 2 months, yet I am contracted for the full amount, I will do it, I will be succesfull, I will not fail - I have spoken to ex Bespoke Graduates, all the ones I have spoken to are full of enthusiasm.

So, as I promised, I will keep you up to date...
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I really wish you the best of luck. You seem to be the ideal student; you have a lot invested in the course, in every sense, and you are full of determination and optimism. I look forward to reading your updates.

Cheers,
Keith
 
ROFL2K9 said:
That's not bad going then, which one was it? Might have a pop at that one myself :naughty: :lol:

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this discussion as it seems to going round in circles now. To those that do go on this course (or any other for that matter) I wish you the very best of fortune, especially the likes of dseered who is busting a gut to do it and not just doing it because they have a spare 9k in their back pocket :)
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Thank you, if you drop me an e-mail I will happily keep you up to date on my progress, personally :)

I kind of forgot to mention I work in a training rich environment, both delivering and receiving, yes fashion as mentioned but also trend led, sales, marketing and forcasting all come into it aswell as being customer facing.

Over the years I have had everything thrown at me and some of it has been utter crap, I went on just one course at Annabel's and I was sold, without them selling, they ( the trainers and support staff ) all have an amazing passion for what they do. Annabel's studio is a feel good place, people smile when they arrive and hang around when they finish.

I understand the concerns of others, it is alot of money however to build a brand is not cheap, to do it right is bloody expensive, to get it wrong could sign the end.

Just today I have been to London, seen the Re-Invention of a brand, it was done right, oh my was it done right, we saw the journey that brand undertook, its focus groups, its marketeers, its users, its consumers, its website, its fragrance, its colour and the list goes on and at that launch we, its salespeople were asked to wear clothes that matched, yep the building was one big continuation of the new brand.

Its not just about teaching someone how to take a nice picture, its the bigger picture that matters, I think I know alot of it already, I have a muddled mind though, I am a creative person, lots of ideas, lots of piles of magazines, pizza boxes, lager cans and overflowing ashtrays - I need a right royal kick up the ass, will Annabel and the team do that, nope, that is down to me but it will make me put things in order, do it right the first time, save me money by doing it in a proven manner that works.

OK, Cumbria to London and back + Champagne is starting to take its toll, enough typing :)


Did I say I can't wait to start :)
 
Sorry, just to add, a good brand needs an ambassador, that ambassador is normally paid to be an ambassador - what you see from Bespoke is many ambassadors that have actually all paid to be there, genius marketing, or just good quality training and value for money, both I reckon ;)
 
Dseered

I hope all goes well and the course brings you what you are looking for, I will not say good luck as you are making your own luck by attending the course and wanting to change the direction of your photography, looks like you have done the hard part to me and that is taking the first step.

Look forward to hearing your updates regarding the training your are getting from the Bespoke.

Regards

Nigel
 
Annabel Williams said:
Amazing there are still people in this world who can't see that other people actually do things for the love of it - not for money. Good luck with your chosen path!
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Come on, that's hilarious! If you weren't doing it for the money you'd be running a registered charity. Making out that you're some alturistic photographic fairy godmother is taking the micky.

I refer back to my first post on this thread. Training isn't expensive if it gives you a greater return on investment. The course I went on at Annabel Williams was not, IMVHO, value for money, it was over subscribed and taught by a photographer who didn't know what a prime lens was. Had I paid for it I'd have been very disappointed that I'd paid over the odds.

How the bespoke course costs out I'm not sure, but Annabel, if you can 'virtually guarentee' a return on investment, why don't you? Any mentoring scheme should be working closely enough with the photogrpaher to see why the ROI isn't going to be hit in time and any mentoring scheme should be good enough to do something about it. If not, the course isn't worth the money.
 
keith.l said:
Maybe I should advertise for an experienced pro who would accept 9k to take me on as a trainee/second shooter for a season. That kind of training would be pretty useful, too..
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That's funny - that's one of the things I'm looking into offering myself this year - wouldn't be as much as that though, and I'd be more likely to offer some form of guarantees too

For instance - one of my marketing techniques brings in a regular 2 Wedding bookings a month, and more in certain periods

:thumbs:

DD
 
The guy at ValeTraining is James Howard. Great guy and great one-to-one assisting course (I did it). Not the same as spending 9k with Annabel Williams (a difference of about 7500 quid), but you do get a real wedding with real guests at the end of the course

Keirik
 
TG. said:
Are you serious :eek: do please tell us more.
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The tutor was using a full frame Canon and I noticed that she only used zooms. I asked her if she ever used prime lenses and she just looked at me blankly. When another student explained what I meant, she still looked as if she didn't know why you'd want to.

The only thing I got out of the day (apart from the lunch ;) ) was the fact that lighting isn't a mysterious art. The tutor just picked the lights up and plonked them down and that to m shattered the illusion that I'd been under that you had to really calculate light distances etc for correct exposure.

Apart from that it was hard to get any shooting practice, there were far too many on the course and even when we split the group in two for shooting, most of the students had never shot in a group before so had no idea about making sure not to step in front of anyone's lenses. Any good course would have laid down some shooting etiquette first. In the end I gave up and stood to the side, shooting the light set ups for reference and observing how others worked.

We were also promised a list of contact details of the other students, but that never materialised.

Certianly not worth the £250 + VAT which I believe was the cost of the day.
 
NorthernNikon said:
The tutor was using a full frame Canon and I noticed that she only used zooms. I asked her if she ever used prime lenses and she just looked at me blankly. When another student explained what I meant, she still looked as if she didn't know why you'd want to.

The only thing I got out of the day (apart from the lunch ;) ) was the fact that lighting isn't a mysterious art. The tutor just picked the lights up and plonked them down and that to m shattered the illusion that I'd been under that you had to really calculate light distances etc for correct exposure.

Apart from that it was hard to get any shooting practice, there were far too many on the course and even when we split the group in two for shooting, most of the students had never shot in a group before so had no idea about making sure not to step in front of anyone's lenses. Any good course would have laid down some shooting etiquette first. In the end I gave up and stood to the side, shooting the light set ups for reference and observing how others worked.

We were also promised a list of contact details of the other students, but that never materialised.

Certianly not worth the £250 + VAT which I believe was the cost of the day.
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Bloody hell that's outrageous ! thanks for the info, it certainly make's you think about the sort of tutor's she is using :eek:
 
DiddyDave said:
That's funny - that's one of the things I'm looking into offering myself this year - wouldn't be as much as that though, and I'd be more likely to offer some form of guarantees too
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It was a little tongue in cheek when I wrote it, but the more I think about it, the more reasonable it seems. Attending a season's worth of real weddings has to be more valuable than a few days training.

I've looked a bit closer into the AW courses, and I think the marketing/sales courses run by Catherine Conner might be worthwhile. Damien Lovegrove praises her highly in his book, she's the MD of the organisation and, in my guess, probably the driving force behind commercial success of the whole operation.

Most of her courses seemed to be sandwiched with a photography element, and the photography tutors often seem to be recent graduates, leading to the kind horror stories Northern Nikon mentions. But one or two of them do have very nice portfolios. So I'm thinking one of the 3 day courses made up of two days marketing/sales with Catherine Conner, plus one day photography with A. N. Other might be worth a look.
 
Keith if you do go on one of the courses be prepared to be bombarded with information from Catherine a lot of what she will tell you will not sink in till days after. Until I put into practice what she has told me to do I will not be making the most of what I could I be doing. I spoke to a business advisor the other week who gave be some very bad advice about building my photographic business, thankfully I had been listened to advice given by Catherine. Catherine’s advice has prevented my throwing money away due to listening to business advisors who know very little or are behind the times when it comes to the photography business.
 
keith.l said:
I've looked a bit closer into the AW courses, and I think the marketing/sales courses run by Catherine Conner might be worthwhile. Damien Lovegrove praises her highly in his book, she's the MD of the organisation and, in my guess, probably the driving force behind commercial success of the whole operation.
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I think that there could be some serious value in the business training side of things, simply because that's the area that most photogrpahers need development in, but as has been mentioned above, the training is only as good as the application after the event.
 
Kieron Nevison said:
I spoke to a business advisor the other week who gave be some very bad advice about building my photographic business, thankfully I had been listened to advice given by Catherine. Catherine’s advice has prevented my throwing money away due to listening to business advisors who know very little or are behind the times when it comes to the photography business.
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Yeah, Business Advisors, that's another very murky pond imo :) Kieron, I noticed that most of CC's courses are run by her and Jane Breakell. Did JB teach on your course, and if so, how was the day broken down?

NorthernNikon said:
I think that there could be some serious value in the business training side of things, simply because that's the area that most photogrpahers need development in, but as has been mentioned above, the training is only as good as the application after the event.
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Agreed. There's training, and there's training. I'm coming to the conclusion that there are some worthwhile courses at AW, and there are some howlers. Most of the courses are not for me, especially the ones taught by recent graduates. The business ones, on the other hand, might prove a worthwhile investment.
 
So, what does that mean, exactly - doubled-teamed? Does Catherine teach the morning and Jane the afternoon, or do they split you into two groups? I'm just wondering how a typical day breaks down ...
 
Ok guys n gals let me give you my insider view on the Bespoke course.

I started it March last year and I can tell you it is worth it.

Its a fast track way to gain a huge amount of the 'business' side of running a photographic business. Attending a series of weddings will not help you to market yourself a great deal.
The photographic training isn't big on technical stuff that we blokes tend to like, but it is exactly what it needs to be, it shows you what sells in terms of imagery, whether one uses a "wizz bang d656 with widget attachment set at 1.25 spongollies" isn't the point, an image that makes a fat bird with acne look great does sell and thats what counts.

Looking back its been a good investment for me, the lessons I've learnt will stay with me.
 
Hi Frank

How many people were on the bespoke course when you did it? What's the split between business and photography training?
I'm looking at going on their intro day in March for the bespoke course.
cheers
Rob
 
I've never read such a worrying post and it really shows the state of photography. You bought a d100 and a d2x and just... Went and shot a wedding. It begars belief! wedding and portrait photography is now flooded with peope who get a camera for Christmas and just go and shoot someone's wedding with no idea what they are doing. It's all very well saying you don't need to know all the technical details it's just about shooting a good picture, my god if your lucky you might even get away with that fir a while but you're saying at someone's wedding your going to just shoot and hope for the best? What if you come up against lighting issues and need to balance absent with a touch or flash or do something really creative and push your art ? Your just going to put it on p and shoot your flash at the ceiling? I'd be very interested to know exactly what this chap is doing now? My guess is he's back at the blue chip company shooting the odd wedding and birds on nature walks. the sooner these idiots from the city gets their fill of trying photography and go back to their actual professions the better, and leave the shooting to people who want to develop their art by giving it the time and dedication to it's techniques the better. Anyone can take a picture of someone crying or giving someone a hug but the future of wedding photography lies in those who can capture more in that image and present it in a honest way using sound techniques on the grounds of knowing their equipment backwards not just p mode and how to adjust the dof.
 
Annabel Williams said:
I did some simple maths to look at the costs of the course.

Keith, this is getting silly! You are entitled to your opinions. But what if, by coming on the course, suddenly you were increasing your sales dramatically, and within the 12 months (subject to you working really hard!) you were able to recoup the costs many times over? I can guarantee your sales would double and more, without a doubt. Several of my photographers were earning an average of £500 per wedding before the bespoke course - now they are earning an average of £5000 per wedding. Investment is all about getting your money back and more. Investment is not about spending money and never seeing it again, unless you're betting on horses. No one is asking you to invest money you haven't got. Most people enjoy a one day course, which sets them off on the right track, and helps them earn back the fee in their very next sale. We could discuss this for ever - but it starts to make me cross, and I hate feeling cross! So I'm off now to keep up the good work.
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I think that should cover you, that sounds like a fact statment to me, oh no theres a "what if" first, theres a supprise.
Best way to make lots of money.... charge £9K for a course.

Annabel if your so sure your courses will make us money why not offer the guarantee properly??
 
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Just playing devil's advocate here as I've no axe to grind one way or another but annabel couldn't give a money back cast iron guarantee because you'd have to prove that you'd followed her instructions and advice to the letter.
In other words she could just say that you haven't followed her advice and theres no way of making you do so, so there's no comeback. Does that make sense?
 
PSILVERMAN said:
Just playing devil's advocate here as I've no axe to grind one way or another but annabel couldn't give a money back cast iron guarantee because you'd have to prove that you'd followed her instructions and advice to the letter.
In other words she could just say that you haven't followed her advice and theres no way of making you do so, so there's no comeback. Does that make sense?
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Oh course it makes sense, it also makes sense not to spend 9K with no guarantee of return. That wouldn't be good business practice (and you can have that for nothing ;))
 
Annabel has not been on the forum for over 14 months .... Do not expect any replies soon .. :shrug:

Personally, I found loads of holes in her statements ... :rules:
 
hypnotic said:
Annabel has not been on the forum for over 14 months .... Do not expect any replies soon .. :shrug:
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lol - according to her website she is "reinventing herself" currently, whatever that means.

personally i quite liked the look of her short courses and £600 wouldnt be outrageous for a weekend course, or a bad investment if it helped you get a few more weddings

but £9k - jaw dropping on principal for most of us on principal I suspect - even if it is good value how many people have that kind of cash to invest in training anyway ?
 
Woah.. nice bit of thread necromancy by Trafford with his first post.. :D

Good fun reading through a thread I hadn't seen though, thanks for that.

Just remember.. you don't sell the sausage, you sell the sizzle..
 
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