Annabel Williams Bespoke Course - worth it ?

blaze_away

blaze_away

Suspended / Banned
Messages
195
Name
Frank Wilson
Edit My Images
Yes
Hi All

I am considering taking the £9000 bespoke course with 'Annabel Williams' with a view to turning from keen amatuer to pro with an operating pro tog business within 1 year.

Whats your thoughts guys & girls, is it the way to go or is there a better way ?
 
You have to ask yourself two questions, what's my time to cash and what will be my overall return on investment.

Time to cash is the length of time it will take for the training to earn you £9,000, overall return on investment is how much extra income the training will provide you.

£9,000.00 is a lot of money. I have been on an Annabel Williams course, I won one as part of a draw on the AP website, and though it was useful I didn't feel that it offered value for money. I think that the bespoke course is more than just photogrpahy technicques, it's about marketing and lead generation, but if I were you I'd ask them for references you could speak to you who have done the course. When you speak to them, ask them what their TTC and ROI was. If they don't know, then they've not been taught fundamental principals of business finance, if they do then that should give you a fair idea of whether it would be worth your while.

My gut feeling is that you should, as my old CEO used to say, JFDI (Just F'king Do It!) Too many people spend too long training, and planning and thinking about running a business when they should be out there doing it. Just remember though, that only 10% of being a successful photographer is taking pictures, the rest is taken up with Sales, Marketing, Admin, Accounting, IT work, Location Scouting etc, etc etc.
 
Thanks NorthernNikon, brilliant reply post from you.

Good common sense answers, exactly what I was trying to elicit from my post.

I deliberately left out what I have been doing to get answers to those questions before making a decision, but I'm glad to say I have been looking at each of the elements you highlighted.

My background is in 'blue-chip' business management, spent last 20 years working in a huge global Co with $40 Billion sales and 40,000 employees where I was most recently responsible for improving customer service, so I fully support and agree with your sentiments. Took volutary redundancy and now I'm going to do what I've always wanted to and become a pro tog. Its just a question of the most quickes and most cost effective route to the goal.

Thanks again

Cheers
Frank :)
 
As above really.. get out there and do it, but perhaps finding a happy medium between the full on 9k course and just diving in head first would be assisting someone, experience on the job from experienced people in the industry, and perhaps smaller courses, one guy i met at Focus.. let me dig out his details.. his courses my suit you...
 
Here's the site http://www.valetraining.com/

Haven't browsed the site but met the main guy at focus and he is experienced and a good teacher. Maybe a one on one with him may be worth the outlay. The rest you may find on another course, specific to the business requirements that Northern mentioned, unless of course this dude covers that with you.. which knowing him he probably will. Can't remember his name but I'm sure it's on that site somewhere.
 
Thanks guys for all the advice, I have decided to go for the full on Annabel Williams Bespoke course AND I will augment it with 'Assisting' a pro tog who produces stunning industrial photos (do my first assist this coming wednesday) and getting out there doing it.

Just did my first 1st wedding yesterday, took 1500 shots in the day, got some stunning images, I think I've done OK on composition but need to get to grips with some tech aspects, mostly its that I need time to get to know my new gear inside out. Jjust bought a D2x and D100 and D40 and SB800 and 6 lens......yes I've spent quite some cash.

I showed 30 of photos on the DJ's widescreen projector at the evening reception, untouched and just as they came of the CF card and on the basis of what they saw on the day a couple booked me for their wedding in December,

So I guess I have now taken one step on the path to become a "pro tog".........time will tell, but it does feel good right now.:):):)
 
jeangenie said:
Congratulations - I bet you're still on Cloud 9 :clap::clap:
Click to expand...

You bet.........I feel I'm on cloud 10 !

and thank you so much for taking the time to reply, what a nice bunch of people there are on this forum.......:):):):)
 
Hi

I went to the one day Bespoke Course introduction yesterday and wish I had read the forum first but everything seems fantastic and I went through being ready to sign on the dotted line there and then to being more cautious and back again. How are you finding the course now your 6 months through it?
 
Just bumping this thread and wondering if blaze away or anyone else has any feedback on any of the Annabel Williams courses.
 
£9000. bloody hell.
if she can charge that much, and keep pumping out the books, she never need pick a camera up agin.
read two of her books.

interesting, but over rated.
the camera press seems to think shes got sunbeams exiting her orrifice too.
 
Just to add, I am booked on the Bespoke, I have a background with the studio, as I used to model with them many moons ago, always had an interest and I do see the value for money, I have spoken to Bespoke Graduates and the overwhelming response is do it. I attended the 'Digital Workflow' seminar last year and the level and quality of training is outstanding.

I can't bloody wait to start Bespoke, it won't be for everyone but it is for me, everyone should keep learning and the style of learning at AWCPT is the style for me, wooooohoooo !
 
CopperEye said:
Hi

I went to the one day Bespoke Course introduction yesterday and wish I had read the forum first but everything seems fantastic and I went through being ready to sign on the dotted line there and then to being more cautious and back again. How are you finding the course now your 6 months through it?
Click to expand...

4th December, I was there, I think, handsome chap sat one the end :)
 
inaneredstripe said:
£9000. bloody hell.
if she can charge that much, and keep pumping out the books, she never need pick a camera up agin.
Click to expand...
Have to admit, I'd take a bit of convincing to hand over 9k. One of the shorter ones might be more realistic for me.

But she's clearly a pretty astute business woman, and if she's managed to include a little of the secret of her own success in her business-related courses, they might be worth a look.
 
dseered said:
Just to add, I am booked on the Bespoke ...
Click to expand...

I found your other post after I replied to this one. Good luck with it! Be interested to hear how you get on, if you have the time for an occasional update.
 
Really interesting to read your comments! Why would I want to make money out of photographers? If all I wanted to do is make money I would just photograph more clients! I actually care about photographers, and hate the way they lack the confidence to be as successful as they can be. All I'm doing is trying to change the industry - and it needs you guys to do that! To be a financially successful photographer you need business acumen, and that doesn't come naturally to most creative people. Anyone who has it would recognise that it costs a fortune to pay the 10 staff I have just to administrate the training, let alone all the trainers we pay, and the building costs are enormous too! We're even building a new training centre to accommodate all the happy and successful people we train - business costs money - you have to invest - I have always invested, even when I started with absolutely nothing - that's how I got here! So if you think you've got the potential, and you want to do something with it, then have the confidence to go for it - because you'll get there a whole lot quicker. We don't sell timeshare - we change lives- and that's what motivates me. Good luck! Annabel
 
Annabel Williams said:
Really interesting to read your comments! Why would I want to make money out of photographers? If all I wanted to do is make money I would just photograph more clients! I actually care about photographers, and hate the way they lack the confidence to be as successful as they can be. All I'm doing is trying to change the industry - and it needs you guys to do that! To be a financially successful photographer you need business acumen, and that doesn't come naturally to most creative people. Anyone who has it would recognise that it costs a fortune to pay the 10 staff I have just to administrate the training, let alone all the trainers we pay, and the building costs are enormous too! We're even building a new training centre to accommodate all the happy and successful people we train - business costs money - you have to invest - I have always invested, even when I started with absolutely nothing - that's how I got here! So if you think you've got the potential, and you want to do something with it, then have the confidence to go for it - because you'll get there a whole lot quicker. We don't sell timeshare - we change lives- and that's what motivates me. Good luck! Annabel
Click to expand...

Hey up, welcome Annabel !

See you soon I hope, can't wait ! ( Woody )
 
Annabel Williams said:
Really interesting to read your comments! Why would I want to make money out of photographers? If all I wanted to do is make money I would just photograph more clients!
Click to expand...
Because your time is limited. There are only 24 hours in a day. By setting up your training establishment, and paying other people to train on your behalf, you can make money even when you're not present.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing. If the courses are worth the money, then everyone: you, the tutors, and the students benefit.

From a prospective student's point of view, I need assess whether or not the courses are indeed worth the money. Personally, I've come to the conclusion that 9k for a course that includes only handful of training days, would not represent a worthwhile investment. Some of the other courses, on the other hand, may well tempt me.
 
and my appologies if my earlier comments caused any offence annabel.
but i do get just a little fed up with seing your (very attractive) face on every camera magazine i pick up.
sorry.
some interesting comments in your post.
hope you post agin on other subject matter other than training too..
 
apologies accepted! If you get fed up of seeing me in mags - why don't you submit articles yourself.....mags are always looking for new stuff - so may be we could start seeing your face in the mags soon!! I am serious here - people like Damien Lovegrove and Brett Harkness never appeared in mags until they came on our bespoke course - now they are superstars! If you want me to disappear from the face of photography just let me know!! I don't do it for my ego - I do it to help other people! I'd love to add extra comments on here - but will not have time to keep logging on regularly, but will try when I can - but if you want any info email me at annabel@annabelwilliams.com - or come on a course - I'd love to prove to you that it will be the best thing you've ever done for your photography!!
 
keith.l said:
Personally, I've come to the conclusion that 9k for a course that includes only handful of training days, would not represent a worthwhile investment.

Hi Keith
how right you are! but that's not what it includes is it?!! the course is all about full support throughout the whole year - and will take you from where you are now to where you want to be - provided you are up for some hard work and effort and are prepared to do what's needed to get there. Ask anyone who's ever been on it - thats the best way to decide if something is worth it. Anyway - this is all getting a bit crazy - so signing off now. Just popping in to set the record straight and flying off to continue being the photo fairy godmother...! ha ha!!
Click to expand...
 
This place NEVER ceases to amaze me, now that's what I call a personal service :clap:
 
I think what Annabel offers is unique. To be able to take good photographers, make them better photographers AND instill the business acumen to make a success out of a business is not easy.

I'm fortunate in that I come from a sales and marketing background so things like SWOT analysis, marketing, business planning, record keeping, NLP, are all fairly second nature to me. Setting up my own business, however, is not something I have done. I have found that I need to go to several sources for the information I need. Business Link, Local Government. How can I apply for start up grants? etc. That's a real rabbit warren and all that before I've even managed one shutter click. Sourcing my own marketing material has taken virtually three months by the time I did the shoots and designed and ordered the products. I need the finished products to sell my services.

Building up networks and working business to business takes time too, it does not drop off the back of a lorry.

Photographic training is something I take seriously. I've worked with Mark Cleghorn, Damien and Brett and each time I've taken something else that I can add to my own toolkit as I am still developing myself as a photographer. Damien and Brett would not be teaching people like me if it were not for Annabel teaching them in the first place.

Yes, it's expensive, but if you don't have the skills to do the job properly you will need to develop them yourself. A bespoke course was unique and well done Annabel for seeing that and then doing it!

(Although it IS time the press had a new pic of you, the one they always use is getting too much exposure and it's not like you can't get your pic taken? lol :))
 
GarynLea said:
This place NEVER ceases to amaze me, now that's what I call a personal service :clap:
Click to expand...

I call it protecting your brand :D

Gotta say I agree with keith.l in that 9k for a handful of training days is a bit steep to say the least. Fair enough, Annabel says that it also covers the support that you get throughout the year but according to her website "Catherine and Jane aren’t here to mollycoddle you, and we won’t be on the phone every ten minutes checking up on you. This is your adventure" and "just pick up the phone or drop us an email and advice will be delivered with energy and enthusiasm".... not exactly a costly way of providing support.
Of course, there are overheads to consider but that's true for all businesses. "10 staff I have just to administrate the training, let alone all the trainers we pay".... that's a lot of training, and at 9k for the Bespoke courses and an average of £300 a day for the others PER PUNTER.... that's also lot of turnover. With an ROI like that I bet it would be nice to have to pay for 20 admin staff and even more trainers :D
Basically what the majory, if not all, of these "Life Changing" courses offer is the MOTIVATION to do well in your chosen career. The actual business side of things and practical side of things you can find and learn cheaper elsewhere. It reminds me of the Housing Development and Buy to Let boom a few years ago, these life changing business courses were springing up left right and centre and charging 5k - 10k for a few days worth of courses.
Basically, if you've got 9k going spare and want to spend it on a few days of training with telephone and email support, Annabel's course does seem as good as any other. But... there are lots of other routes to the top of your game and almost infinate number of resources for inspiration and motivation. Regarding the business side of things, as I said, there are a lot of training, advice and support available much cheaper and a lot of it free.

I was born sceptical, it goes hand-in-hand with good business sense :naughty:
 
ROFL2K9 said:
as I said, there are a lot of training, advice and support available much cheaper and a lot of it free.

I was born sceptical, it goes hand-in-hand with good business sense :naughty:
Click to expand...

And a lot of the training, advice and support is not applicable to a small (one person) business and grants available are not tailored to that kind of operation and business plans are not tailored to photography (just businesses selling "units" and how many "units" are you going to shift per year/month/week/day)

So to have a course tailored to the business of photography was rather inspired and as I say I'm reaping the benefits by going to Brett and Kristie and Damien and by the time I've added Mark Cleghorn and Martin Graham-Dunn then I'm pretty sorted. So yes I agree that you CAN go and get the information yourself, but it's not stuctured, you waste a lot of time and effort in actually finding it (They really don't like handing out grants to the likes of me!) And there are no deadlines, targets or projects to work on to help develop the skills you need. That's where Annabel adds extra value for that fee.
 
Norseman said:
But since you know neither "R" nor "I" how can you tell?

And of course, turnover ain't profit! :)
Click to expand...

I suspect that with the prices charged per punter for the courses, bearing in mind the duration of them, there'll be a significant ROI, afterall, if there isn't then you'd hardly want to be taking business advice from them would you? :whistling:

And true enough, turnover aint profit. At 9k for a handful of days worth of knowledge and subsequent telephone support, there's not a great deal of material outgoings to account for other than the usual overheads that most businesses have, such a spremises, staff, equipment/tools etc. So, one would presume (as you often have to do when discussing things) that a healthy portion of that turnover is indeed profit. Which again you'd expect from someone who is teaching you how to become successful in business :D
It's not a great secret that, if run correctly, businesses offering training and motivational services have a good profit-turnover ratio.

I'm not saying that it is wrong to make a healthy profit, the more profit the better, that's what businesses are all about. As long as people get the service or product that's advertised, and I'm sure that they do, that's great. People have a choice, that's the important thing... you don't have to spend 9k to start you off in business, but if you have the cash and want to do so then that's fine.
I'm just looking at it as a prospective punter and weighing up whether it would be good value for money for me, which I don't think it would be.
 
AliB said:
And a lot of the training, advice and support is not applicable to a small (one person) business and grants available are not tailored to that kind of operation and business plans are not tailored to photography (just businesses selling "units" and how many "units" are you going to shift per year/month/week/day)

So to have a course tailored to the business of photography was rather inspired and as I say I'm reaping the benefits by going to Brett and Kristie and Damien and by the time I've added Mark Cleghorn and Martin Graham-Dunn then I'm pretty sorted. So yes I agree that you CAN go and get the information yourself, but it's not stuctured, you waste a lot of time and effort in actually finding it (They really don't like handing out grants to the likes of me!) And there are no deadlines, targets or projects to work on to help develop the skills you need. That's where Annabel adds extra value for that fee.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, it's no doubt a good course and certainly easier than doing it yourself.... but it's just a shame that the cost, in my opinion, is too high.
The main thing for you is that, in your case, you feel you've got value for money, which is good :) Good luck with your business :thumbs:
 
ROFL2K9 said:
.
I'm just looking at it as a prospective punter and weighing up whether it would be good value for money for me, which I don't think it would be.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, that our courses would be a total waste of time for you. There is no room for negative people in our gang! Amazing there are still people in this world who can't see that other people actually do things for the love of it - not for money. Good luck with your chosen path!
 
Annabel Williams said:
I totally agree, that our courses would be a total waste of time for you. There is no room for negative people in our gang! Amazing there are still people in this world who can't see that other people actually do things for the love of it - not for money. Good luck with your chosen path!
Click to expand...

:lol::lol: I'm not a negative person at all, I'm just very learned and worldy-wise :)
Thanks for your wishes, I have been very lucky in my chosen path already, so much so that it affords me extra time to take up photography as a hobby :thumbs:

And your statement "Amazing there are still people in this world who can't see that other people actually do things for the love of it - not for money." has me even more amazed at the cost of the course :thinking::shrug:

Good luck with the courses...
 
Annabel Williams said:
Hi Keith
how right you are! but that's not what it includes is it?!! the course is all about full support throughout the whole year - and will take you from where you are now to where you want to be - provided you are up for some hard work and effort and are prepared to do what's needed to get there.
Click to expand...

Well to be honest Annabel, as far as I can see, that is exactly what it includes. I did speak to your sales people a few weeks ago about the bespoke course. I was told that they were "limited in what they could send in e-mail". So the only written description of the course is this. As I understand it, the "full support throughout the year" means that you can call the tutors if you run into any problems while setting up your business. But assuming the course is as comprehensive as one would expect for £9000, I would hope that I wouldn't need to avail myself of the telephone support too often.

I did some simple maths to look at the costs of the course.

13 days at £9000 = £692 per day.

Or looking at another way, lets say £92 of that sum goes toward the support and £700 is for the training. Lets also say that a day is 8 hours with an hour for lunch, and that I make 13 support calls.

That would give:

91 hours training with each hour costing £85
13 telephone calls with each call costing £92

There's no way I could justify that kind of outlay. Training is expensive, but this course seems to priced at least twice the level of the industry norm, and twice the cost of your other courses. And to be honest, the fact that you don't include the price on the web site, and that there is next to no printed information available does nothing to commend the course to me.

Granted the course does have one or two high-profile alumni, but Damien Lovegrove had a background as a television cameraman and lighting director. I have no doubt the course helped him on his way, but I have a feeling he was destined to succeed anyway, and I doubt that most students are lucky enough to bring that kind of experience to day one of the course.

I'm sure it's an excellent course; I would love to attend it. But for me, its price, and tbh, the way it's sold, mean that it's a non-starter.
 
some of the day courses look interesting, and not too badly priced. As i dont know what the Bespoke involves i cant comment on the price.
 
I did some simple maths to look at the costs of the course.

Keith, this is getting silly! You are entitled to your opinions. But what if, by coming on the course, suddenly you were increasing your sales dramatically, and within the 12 months (subject to you working really hard!) you were able to recoup the costs many times over? I can guarantee your sales would double and more, without a doubt. Several of my photographers were earning an average of £500 per wedding before the bespoke course - now they are earning an average of £5000 per wedding. Investment is all about getting your money back and more. Investment is not about spending money and never seeing it again, unless you're betting on horses. No one is asking you to invest money you haven't got. Most people enjoy a one day course, which sets them off on the right track, and helps them earn back the fee in their very next sale. We could discuss this for ever - but it starts to make me cross, and I hate feeling cross! So I'm off now to keep up the good work.
 
Annabel Williams said:
I did some simple maths to look at the costs of the course.

Keith, this is getting silly!
Click to expand...

Why is it getting silly :shrug: Surely you'd expect people to thoroughly do the maths before making such a large investment? I'd perish the thought of not doing so when I make investments or purchases for my business or personal affairs.
And don't let a simple discussion make you angry, afterall, it's quite a good opportunity for you to get across the benefits of the course to a vast target market.
 
Annabel Williams said:
Keith, this is getting silly!
Click to expand...
I'm not deliberately trying to cast the Bespoke course in a poor light. I've been looking around at training options, and came across this thread detailing one possible option. My feedback here is simply a description of the thought process that led me to decide this particular course is not for me.

I would imagine that the quick calculations I've done would be entirely in keeping with the kind of thing that your business trainers would approve of if a student asked them how to evaluate possible training options.

Annabel Williams said:
You are entitled to your opinions. But what if, by coming on the course, suddenly you were increasing your sales dramatically, and within the 12 months (subject to you working really hard!) you were able to recoup the costs many times over?
Click to expand...
And what if I didn't? "What if ..." is not really a sensible way to decide whether or not to spend 9k.

Annabel Williams said:
I can guarantee your sales would double and more, without a doubt.
Click to expand...
Well, if you really could guarantee that, the whole picture would change. And what kind of guarantee is this? Is it a money-back guarantee? What happens if my sales don't more than double?


Annabel Williams said:
Several of my photographers were earning an average of £500 per wedding before the bespoke course - now they are earning an average of £5000 per wedding. Investment is all about getting your money back and more.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

Annabel Williams said:
Investment is not about spending money and never seeing it again, unless you're betting on horses.
Click to expand...
Quite.

Annabel Williams said:
No one is asking you to invest money you haven't got. Most people enjoy a one day course, which sets them off on the right track, and helps them earn back the fee in their very next sale.
Click to expand...
I agree with Matty. Your training does have a good reputation, and the one-day training courses, while still at the high-end, do seem like a more realistic proposition to me.

Annabel Williams said:
We could discuss this for ever - but it starts to make me cross, and I hate feeling cross! So I'm off now to keep up the good work.
Click to expand...
Good for you:) Don't feel cross, you're the owner of an extremely successful business!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top