Angry White and Thick

[SFTPhotography]

You know, if you put away your preconceptions for a while, and read the history, you might get an insight into this.

Was Thatcher really such a great leader if she didn't think through 'cause and effect'.

It's easy to think of people as 'apologists' or allowing the making of excuses, but you see recent UK history as if it's the historical status quo, and the future as a bleak place that can only be worse than now. What should be an obvious truth is that there's no status quo, and that events are shaped by people reacting in relatively predictable ways.

If we interfere in foreign countries there will be consequences. If we train terrorists to fight our enemies, how can we be sure one day they won't be our enemies too? Most people don't get the simple 'the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your ally' despite constant reminders from history.

It's why all the people you disagree with keep pointing to the past with relevant facts, but all you are concerned about is an imagined apocalyptic Islamified future. The clues to the future can be found in the past, you just have to stop your fears clouding your brain and find them.

Negotiating with terrorists is just what you have to do. There might be a macho b******t Hollywood line that looks cool, or a hand wringing 'it's impossible to negotiate with these people'. But the truth is that it's the only solution.

Shooting the hell out of the terrorists works better for me. Let them hate, so long as they fear. Where is the fear?

PS Hindsight is a wonderful thing but at the time her decisions were the right ones, or the choice between the lesser of two evils. I'd have gone in heavier with Argentina mind you...

 

[Phil V]

Shooting the hell out of the terrorists works better for me. Let them hate, so long as they fear. Where is the fear?

PS Hindsight is a wonderful thing but at the time her decisions were the right ones, or the choice between the lesser of two evils. I'd have gone in heavier with Argentina mind you...

It's not hindsight though, it's the lessons of history. Which is exactly my point and is why there's a chasm between your attitude to the situation and most other peoples. Fear is never the outcome, again there's thousands of years of history to back that up.

 

[SFTPhotography]

It's not hindsight though, it's the lessons of history. Which is exactly my point and is why there's a chasm between your attitude to the situation and most other peoples. Fear is never the outcome, again there's thousands of years of history to back that up.

When we were at our greatest we roamed the sea's, had a navy and military second to none. We had the two power standard. Fear of Britain kept us on top for years and years.

 

[BRASH]

My favourite insult is 'Champagne Socialist' which I guess is the polar opposite of a working class Tory.

Champagne Socialist, brilliant turn of phrase imo. For me it totally sums up the smug, self righteous, plastic peasant hypocrites it's generally applied to (not aimed at anyone in particular).

 

[Phil V]

Champagne Socialist, brilliant turn of phrase imo. For me it totally sums up the smug, self righteous, plastic peasant hypocrites it's generally applied to (not aimed at anyone in particular).

And for me, it sums up intelligent people who have and who understand that the best way to help the whole of society is to help the have nots. The opposite being allowing the haves to get more and more and to further trample on those at the bottom.

 

[Phil V]

When we were at our greatest we roamed the sea's, had a navy and military second to none. We had the two power standard. Fear of Britain kept us on top for years and years.

So when we were invading places, enforcing our rules and religion that was all OK?
And it wasn't fear that kept them down, it was our highly efficient civil service keeping them 'on our side'.

 

[BRASH]

And for me, it sums up intelligent people who have and who understand that the best way to help the whole of society is to help the have nots. The opposite being allowing the haves to get more and more and to further trample on those at the bottom.

Well, I suppose I'm at the bottom and have been trampled on all my life in some way or another. Do I want sympathy, understanding or help from these patronising do gooders. Nah, I've survived this far without out it, ain't gonna need it now. Just my view like. Feel free to disagree as you will but don't try to change my view. Won't happen, I'm not open to that. Now excuse me I've some hunt saboteurs to track down. (I'm actually going shopping with the wife but that doesn't sound like the Skinhead thing to do on a Saturday. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! Don't let on tho).

 

[SFTPhotography]

Champagne Socialist, brilliant turn of phrase imo. For me it totally sums up the smug, self righteous, plastic peasant hypocrites it's generally applied to (not aimed at anyone in particular).

There should be a double like function for posts like this

You forgot Guardian readership, the passport of smug, plastic socialist, chippy, leftists etc

 

[BRASH]

There should be a double like function for posts like this

 

[Steve Smith]

So when we were invading places, enforcing our rules and religion that was all OK?.

Yes. That will teach them not to invade our country and enforce their rules and religion!


Steve.

 

[Laudrup]

You know, if you put away your preconceptions for a while, and read the history, you might get an insight into this.

Was Thatcher really such a great leader if she didn't think through 'cause and effect'.

It's easy to think of people as 'apologists' or allowing the making of excuses, but you see recent UK history as if it's the historical status quo, and the future as a bleak place that can only be worse than now. What should be an obvious truth is that there's no status quo, and that events are shaped by people reacting in relatively predictable ways.

If we interfere in foreign countries there will be consequences. If we train terrorists to fight our enemies, how can we be sure one day they won't be our enemies too? Most people don't get the simple 'the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your ally' despite constant reminders from history.

It's why all the people you disagree with keep pointing to the past with relevant facts, but all you are concerned about is an imagined apocalyptic Islamified future. The clues to the future can be found in the past, you just have to stop your fears clouding your brain and find them.

Negotiating with terrorists is just what you have to do. There might be a macho b******t Hollywood line that looks cool, or a hand wringing 'it's impossible to negotiate with these people'. But the truth is that it's the only solution.

No 'interference in foreign countries' justifies these actions. It is time people stopped giving these terrorists that get out clause. As for negotiation, there won't be any. What could you negotiate with them anyway?

Obama summed it up nicely:

There can be no reasoning – no negotiation – with this brand of evil. The only language understood by killers like this is the language of force. So the United States of America will work with a broad coalition to dismantle this network of death.

 

[Phil V]

... What could you negotiate with them anyway?
...

Is that what we said about the IRA, and every other conflict that ended in a negotiated settlement?

 

[dejongj]

Champagne Socialist, brilliant turn of phrase imo. For me it totally sums up the smug, self righteous, plastic peasant hypocrites it's generally applied to (not aimed at anyone in particular).

For me it sums up those that dictate how much others should pay to keep them in their lifestyle debating the world. So easy to spend money they don't have, whilst bathing in the hypocrisy and living the luxury themselves.

 

[norters]

I'm just glad that there are people on TP that I actually agree with! I may actually use the follow function now!

 

[Phil V]

For me it sums up those that dictate how much others should pay to keep them in their lifestyle debating the world. So easy to spend money they don't have, whilst bathing in the hypocrisy and living the luxury themselves.

I suppose it's a 'glass half full' or not view on life. It's easy to find fault in people, some people like to look at the whole picture and see the good too.

 

[Laudrup]

Is that what we said about the IRA, and every other conflict that ended in a negotiated settlement?

The IRA are nothing like ISIS or al-Qaeda. The IRA were not motivated by religion but national identity and territory. You can work towards a solution with a united Ireland. You cannot work towards a solution of an Islamic caliphate which wants to overthrow other sovereign countries like Israel with violence, kill the Jews and install a hardline interpretation of Islam. Any negotiation would only legitimize and appease them. Show them the same mercy they have shown aid workers and journalists and photographers.

 

[Phil V]

The IRA are nothing like ISIS or al-Qaeda. The IRA were not motivated by religion but national identity and territory. You can work towards a solution with a united Ireland. You cannot work towards a solution of an Islamic caliphate which wants to overthrow other sovereign countries like Israel with violence, kill the Jews and install a hardline interpretation of Islam. Any negotiation would only legitimize and appease them. Show them the same mercy they have shown aid workers and journalists and photographers.

That's where the anger overshadows reason. What people say they want and what they will settle for are different things entirely. You know that, history has proved it, but your hatred clouds your judgement, it's common enough so don't feel bad.

 

[dejongj]

I suppose it's a 'glass half full' or not view on life. It's easy to find fault in people, some people like to look at the whole picture and see the good too.

Oh I see food everywhere. Just not in those that act like drug dealers and create a state dependency. I think those people are most cruel.

 

[Phil V]

Oh I see food everywhere. Just not in those that act like drug dealers and create a state dependency. I think those people are most cruel.

Creating dependency on the State is what Thatcher did, it wasn't a socialist decision, but an economic one.

Creating a safety net to stop people starving to death is the basis for the welfare state. And it was doing a great job until the monetarists decided that if the country had balanced books we could accept massive unemployment, with no consideration for the effect of that on society. If you have no concept of 'society' you don't plan to maintain it, and we have reaped the consequences of that. There is not a single ill in this country that you can't attribute directly to the policies of that evil nasty vicious bitch.

 

[Laudrup]

That's where the anger overshadows reason. What people say they want and what they will settle for are different things entirely. You know that, history has proved it, but your hatred clouds your judgement, it's common enough so don't feel bad.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding what these groups want in your thinking there is a one size fits all solution here or that it's just like what groups like the IRA or EOKA want. It isn't. Was Osama bin Laden tracked down and negotiated with? I mean how do you negotiate the destruction of western Judeo-Christian civilization?

 

[Phil V]

You are fundamentally misunderstanding what these groups want in your thinking there is a one size fits all solution here or that it's just like what groups like the IRA or EOKA want. It isn't. Was Osama bin Laden tracked down and negotiated with? I mean how do you negotiate the destruction of western Judeo-Christian civilization?

That's where the anger overshadows reason. What people say they want and what they will settle for are different things entirely. You know that, history has proved it, but your hatred clouds your judgement, it's common enough so don't feel bad.

It seems even when the answer is pointed out, your aggression stops you from seeing it.

 

[Laudrup]

It seems even when the answer is pointed out, your aggression stops you from seeing it.

These groups hate everything you stand for and want the destruction of your way of life. That is the aim of ISIS and not something you can all get round the table and negotiate towards. The onus is on you to describe what those negotiations would entail, but somehow I don't think you'll even try to.

 

[big soft moose]

She wouldn't have them now. In that time, us and our Neighbouring countries weren't seeing Muslim terrorist groups do their worst here.

rather like we arent now in fact... Lee rigby was just a couple of nutters , and that apart the last terror attack in the UK was in 07

 

[big soft moose]

Muslim staff cannot work with Pork...yet apply for jobs in places that sell it, then cry like babies when they have to interact with it.

Same with when they apply for jobs where alcohol handling is involved, they know the store handles it, yet proclaim unfair dismissal/discrimination when they cannot do their job due to their religion, or the company has to find them alternative duties to fit around their religion.

If their religion blocks them from joining into our society, why on earth come here and remain here.

loads of pakistani run convenience stores stock and sell alcohol ... if you bothered to check your facts you'd know that actually the Quran doesnt forbid the handling or sale of alcohol , merely its consumption by the faithful. Likewise with pork they can handle it wrapped (as in tesco etc) they just can't handle the raw meat without gloves or consume it

But hey lets not let the facts stand in the way of yet another rant

 

[dejongj]

Creating dependency on the State is what Thatcher did, it wasn't a socialist decision, but an economic one.

Creating a safety net to stop people starving to death is the basis for the welfare state. And it was doing a great job until the monetarists decided that if the country had balanced books we could accept massive unemployment, with no consideration for the effect of that on society. If you have no concept of 'society' you don't plan to maintain it, and we have reaped the consequences of that. There is not a single ill in this country that you can't attribute directly to the policies of that evil nasty vicious bitch.

Cotswallop absolute rubbish. Safety net is great but it should be just that a safety net. Not this huge redistribution machine that it had become. I agree that right to buy was a terrible policy, one that created many of the current day champagne socialist. However the country was on its knees before that formidable woman came in

 

[SFTPhotography]

loads of pakistani run convenience stores stock and sell alcohol ... if you bothered to check your facts you'd know that actually the Quran doesnt forbid the handling or sale of alcohol , merely its consumption by the faithful. Likewise with pork they can handle it wrapped (as in tesco etc) they just can't handle the raw meat without gloves or consume it

But hey lets not let the facts stand in the way of yet another rant

Here you go

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fuse-serve-customers-buying-alcohol-pork.html

Islamification at work.

 

[dejongj]

rather like we arent now in fact... Lee rigby was just a couple of nutters , and that apart the last terror attack in the UK was in 07

If you honestly belief that you are very naive. Our security services and police and other agencies have done and are doing a fantastic job in thwarting many a big and small plot. You don't hear half of it and wouldn't have got a clue.

 

[big soft moose]

These groups hate everything you stand for and want the destruction of your way of life. That is the aim of ISIS and not something you can all get round the table and negotiate towards. The onus is on you to describe what those negotiations would entail, but somehow I don't think you'll even try to.

The sort of society Steve and possibly yourself seem to want would also involve the destruction of the british way of life... lets tear up democracy and embrace a fascist dictatorship where the state determines what we can say, think, believe, how we dress etc.

Ironically the sort of society the islamic fundamentalists want is very similar in nature to the one you guys seem to be promoting - the only difference is that in your version instead of an islamic council telling us how to behave we have a bunch of far right politicians.

Personally I reject both options

 

[big soft moose]

Here you go

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fuse-serve-customers-buying-alcohol-pork.html

Islamification at work.

The daily heil again - sigh

and b****r all to do with islamification (jews can't handle pork either , hindus can't handle beef etc) - if M&S wants to give its staff the right to refuse to serve certain things fair enough - its not like they are stoppin selling them altogether

 

[SFTPhotography]

The sort of society Steve and possibly yourself seem to want would also involve the destruction of the british way of life... lets tear up democracy and embrace a fascist dictatorship where the state determines what we can say, think, believe, how we dress etc.s

And he's off...

Please tell me where I said I want this, just to ensure Islam doesn't become too big for its boots here and those that proactively try to change established ways, terrorists etc are kicked into touch.

How is that facism unless you are more bolshy than Tony Benn.

 

[BRASH]

.. Lee rigby was just a couple of nutters

Really?? What an ignorantly blinkered, dismissive and disrespectful comment to make.

 

[SFTPhotography]

The daily heil again - sigh

and b****r all to do with islamification (jews can't handle pork either , hindus can't handle beef etc) - if M&S wants to give its staff the right to refuse to serve certain things fair enough - its not like they are stoppin selling them altogether

It's pandering to a vociferous group. Why did the Muslims apply for jobs there knowing it sells pork and beef.

Its like me, who's never climbed mount everst in my life, applying to be a tour guide on Mt Everest then complaining its too high and too cold and I shouldn't do it.

They should tell them to get to F***

 

[SFTPhotography]

rather like we arent now in fact... Lee rigby was just a couple of nutters , and that apart the last terror attack in the UK was in 07

A highly offensive and appalling remark. Woefully wide of the remark, it was done by Muslims in the name of their religion.

The contempt you have for your country, and its people is immense. What happened in your life here to make you hate Britain and her people so?

 

[big soft moose]

If you honestly belief that you are very naive. Our security services and police and other agencies have done and are doing a fantastic job in thwarting many a big and small plot. You don't hear half of it and wouldn't have got a clue.

wheras you have an inside track to what MI5 are thinking ?

Theres been a constant terror threat since the 80s (or before) first it was the marxists, then the irish, then muslim extremists, plus the far right and the far left are always an option and so on - so yes there's a 'potential' risk but stating that we are "under attack" is hysterical hyperbole - personally I refuse to live in fear when in practice there is a far higher risk of being hit by a car or dying of heart disease etc.

 

[SFTPhotography]

If you honestly belief that you are very naive. Our security services and police and other agencies have done and are doing a fantastic job in thwarting many a big and small plot. You don't hear half of it and wouldn't have got a clue.

Yes, they are most excellent and the Belgians did a terrific job in reducing the Jihadist numbers

 

[Laudrup]

The sort of society Steve and possibly yourself seem to want would also involve the destruction of the british way of life... lets tear up democracy and embrace a fascist dictatorship where the state determines what we can say, think, believe, how we dress etc.

Ironically the sort of society the islamic fundamentalists want is very similar in nature to the one you guys seem to be promoting - the only difference is that in your version instead of an islamic council telling us how to behave we have a bunch of far right politicians.

Personally I reject both options

Surely having a seven-hour debate in the UK Parliament and then voting 524 to 43 in favour of participating in military action against IS in Iraq is the exact opposite of wanting to 'tear up democracy and embrace fascist dictatorship'? Is anyone here arguing for such a dystopia? I don't know what Steve's ultimate vision of the UK is, but I'd bet it bears closer resemblance to your own compared to what ISIS or other Islamic extremists want.

 

[Phil V]

Cotswallop absolute rubbish. Safety net is great but it should be just that a safety net. Not this huge redistribution machine that it had become. I agree that right to buy was a terrible policy, one that created many of the current day champagne socialist. However the country was on its knees before that formidable woman came in

You're entitled to disagree. But I lived through the state sanctioned violence that destroyed industry in the North of England and have watched those devastated communities struggle through the aftermath. The monetarist answer was that it didn't matter, because we could make the City a nice place for foreign dealers to do business and as long as the balance of payments was OK, unemployment was worth it (we saw the end result of that in 2007). When you've seen the police hunt down ordinary working class people who just wanted the right to work beat them and invent charges to lock them up, it gives you a different perspective on the Tory ethos.

ex council estates are not full of Champagne socialists - they're full of right of centre UKIP supporters, who managed to struggle through with state help and now think everyone else should do the same (but without the help). FFS I do wonder if some people here ever speak to actual human beings.

 

[Phil V]

Surely having a seven-hour debate in the UK Parliament and then voting 524 to 43 in favour of participating in military action against IS in Iraq is the exact opposite of wanting to 'tear up democracy and embrace fascist dictatorship'? Is anyone here arguing for such a dystopia? I don't know what Steve's ultimate vision of the UK is, but I'd bet it bears closer resemblance to your own compared to what ISIS or other Islamic extremists want.

The kind of debate that had most of the country backing the Iraq invasion, that you all quickly tired of and now call Blairs illegal war.
I'll bet I can pick out a few people on this forum who would have said not to go into there, and it's easy to spot those who would have considered it a great idea. Jeez, it's not like we have to have a degree in History to understand. This is quite simple.

Steve's idea of a future Britain is vastly different to the one I want, because we are both looking at a different present and see different things that need fixing.

 

[Laudrup]

rather like we arent now in fact... Lee rigby was just a couple of nutters , and that apart the last terror attack in the UK was in 07

The French intelligence services used to track terrorists to the UK in the 90s and coined the term 'Londonistan' for the capital. As the quote goes "the price of peace is eternal vigilance" and right now these Islamic extremists need our attention. Dismissing the threat as a few nutters isn't an option.

 

[norters]

A highly offensive and appalling remark. Woefully wide of the remark, it was done by Muslims in the name of their religion.

The contempt you have for your country, and its people is immense. What happened in your life here to make you hate Britain and her people so?

That attack was carried out by two islamic extremists in the name of their twisted version of Islam. So you're wrong on that one.