Angry White and Thick

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Cobra said:
I think its the "name" and it would be perceived by many as the thin end of the wedge TBH
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quite possibly. But at least Lloyds already offer a Sharia bank account.


Cobra said:
I'm not in the slightest religious and they ( all religeons) can all go to hell [sic] as far as I am concerned.
2 things, I certainly wouldn't want to be "forced" to pray 5 (is it?) times a day,
give up bacon sarnies, and not have the freedom of choice if I wanted a glass of wine or two,
with my roast pork and crackling.

The Catholics have built themselves a nice little "empire" can you see them deferring to another religion?
I suspect that really would be the start of a "holy" war.
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No, I wasn't suggesting forced conversion. I very much doubt something like a Constatine Shift and the associated violence/forced conversions as happened in Christianity would be possible now. I'm simply wondering if over time, and across the world Islam will become more 'popular' then Christianity.
 
ST4 said:
So thats why it was spread by the sword 100's of years back
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It wasnt , it was spread pretty much by trade - most of the religious violence betwen christianty and islam was cause by us attacking them - crusades for example , or the actions of the knights of st john (who eventually provoked an attack on their base at malta)

ST4 said:
This is Britain, people need to fit into our ways, not us fit in around theres.
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But we are a democracy and that essential means people have the freedom to choose which god to worship, how they dress, what they eat and so forth. Its not about us fitting round their ways, its about us not abandoning the central tenet of "our ways" and becoming instead a dictatorship which says you must believe this, you can't wear that etc

ST4 said:
Where have I suggested extermination?
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where did i say you had ? - you clearly havent actually read mein kampf :bang: - the main theme of which is a jewish peril , and a jewish conspiracy to gain world leadership which Hitler calls for all true men [ie germans and other anglosaxons] to stand against. He also didnt original posit extermination of the 'jewish race' - originally he wanted to deport them

If you substitute muslim for jew , this looks very close indeed to what you are arguing for here
 
fabs said:
But that could just be your perception though.
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also worth noting that there are some areas of say Milton Keynes that i'd worry about walking through at night which have nothing to do with muslims, and more to do with lawless and feral youth.


strongly islamic areas ought to be fairly safe as they take a much harsher line on street crime than is the norm in the west
 
dejongj said:
To me it is a bad thing. Not because it is Islam, I would suggest that with what we know now religion has no place interfering with ways of life, it has a disproportionate representation and this distorts what most people really strive towards.

It has been tolerated for a long time as it has been mostly harmless, although in hindsight even that is not longer correct in recent history.


It is time to move on from man made religious rules.
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I wasn't trying to suggest it as interfering. In limited cases now the civil courts will push you down an alternative dispute resolution route. I'm merely wondering if in those type of cases and if both people agreed you could abide by Sharia law instead. Its a thought, not a viewpoint though.

Many people would argue religion has never been mostly harmless throughout history. I do think through Eurpoe and the US atleast now it does hold as you say, disporportionate influence to where it sits in people lives.
 
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boyfalldown said:
quite possibly. But at least Lloyds already offer a Sharia bank account. .
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And that was kinda my point also,
just little bits here and there, one place I used to visit
many years ago, and I suspect that its not as uncommon these days,
as it was then,
there was a set a side prayer room.
Which those of the faith were allowed to use at any time.
(and not just at tea breaks that everyone took)
I saw no "chapel" there or at any other work place I visited.

Plus various other little idiosyncrasies that have been coming to light
during the course of the threads...
Baby steps..
Just sayin' ;)
 
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BRASH said:
I've already stated where.
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Luton is a pretty big place Brash, even more so for the counties you have mentioned. You and Steve keep making these statements without any evidence. I am willing to change my mind based on evidence, but please show me the evidence.
 
big soft moose said:
also worth noting that there are some areas of say Milton Keynes that i'd worry about walking through at night which have nothing to do with muslims, and more to do with lawless and feral youth.
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No honestly, its all fine now, since you moved to Devon anyway :thumbs:
 
Laudrup said:
What does that prove though? We are fighting Islamic fundamentalists trying to spread their ideology and terrorism.
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It prooves nothing more then Islam is not the only religion to spread itself my violence. Which was pretty clear if you'd managed to read the whole convesation
 
At school there were a fair few Persians/Iranians but no on site prayer rooms. Assemblies every day took place in the school chapel and all denominations had to attend. Of course, things may have changed in the intervening 3? years... (The chapel was consecrated as a CofE chapel.)
 
boyfalldown said:
quite possibly. But at least Lloyds already offer a Sharia bank account.




No, I wasn't suggesting forced conversion. I very much doubt something like a Constatine Shift and the associated violence/forced conversions as happened in Christianity would be possible now. I'm simply wondering if over time, and across the world Islam will become more 'popular' then Christianity.
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It will but not by conversion, population growth is already providing the evidence. As I mentioned before, the issue was already discussed in the Netherlands parlement, and calculated to happen within two generations.
 
Cobra said:
And that was kinda my point also,
just little bits here and there, one place I used to visit
many years ago, and I suspect that its not as uncommon these days,
as it was then,
there was a set a side prayer room.
Which those of the faith were allowed to use at any time.
(and not just at tea breaks that everyone took)
I saw no "chapel" there or at any other work place I visited.

Plus various other little idiosyncrasies that have been coming to light
during the course of the threads...
Baby steps..
Just sayin' ;)
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hence my speculation that over the next few hundred years we'd see a change from Christianity to Islam as the dominate religion.

Kind of in the same vein as prayer rooms the 'No abdulations' signs in the mens loos at Istanbul airport make me giggle every time. Not as much though as seeing a cheery young man wondering round in his circumcision outfit obviously with no idea of what is to come
 
Rapscallion said:
Luton is a pretty big place Brash, even more so for the counties you have mentioned. You and Steve keep making these statements without any evidence. I am willing to change my mind based on evidence, but please show me the evidence.
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You'll have to speak to the people I've spoken to and that ain't gonna happen is it? I'm not trying to change your mind, only puting across points. I care not what you believe but I'll not be denied saying something if I wish to regardless of what you or others may think.

I've seen plenty things first hand, done plenty things and had plenty things done to me which I do not wish to share on here for a variety of reasons. Just because I don't evidence them to you don't mean they didn't happen. Lets just leave it at that.
 
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dejongj said:
It will but not by conversion, population growth is already providing the evidence. As I mentioned before, the issue was already discussed in the Netherlands parlement, and calculated to happen within two generations.
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which kind of begs my next question. Assuming the vast majority are nothing more the peacful, productive members of society do you think that is a bad thing?. Societies change, religions change over time. History shows us this. I'm asking again from interest, nothing more.
 
Cobra said:
Quite possibly, but that was before a couple or so dissident clerics were "discovered hiding" ;)
But TBH thats what a lot of this is about, isn't it? peoples perception.
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There are areas in many cities where I feel uncomfortable. And although say bury park in Luton is most definitely Muslim, I actually don't feel uncomfortable there, nor have seen or witnessed enforcement of sharia law. I have seen the effect and influence it has and campaign it is running against all sorts of weird and wonderful like bill boards and the likes.

Marsh farm I would feel a hundred times less comfortable personally.

And also the street where we traced my stolen equipment to in cooperation with the local burglary team.

Many very bad areas, sink estates or ghettos if you like that word :)
 
boyfalldown said:
I wasn't trying to suggest it as interfering. In limited cases now the civil courts will push you down an alternative dispute resolution route. I'm merely wondering if in those type of cases and if both people agreed you could abide by Sharia law instead. Its a thought, not a viewpoint though.

Many people would argue religion has never been mostly harmless throughout history. I do think through Eurpoe and the US atleast now it does hold as you say, disporportionate influence to where it sits in people lives.
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I can't see why "sharia law" is required for dispute resolution. Then again it is just a form of mediation. Unfortunately the inequality part in Sharia must be sorted in my opinion. Whilst technically it adheres to the process of both parties agreeing, I'm concerned that cultural influences are putting unfounded pressures on one party to agree as if they don't then whilst they may be right it will affect their family etc outside the court.

In my opinion it is not mature and inclusive enough often supported by further cultural distortion.
 
boyfalldown said:
Kind of in the same vein as prayer rooms the 'No abdulations' signs in the mens loos at Istanbul airport make me giggle every time. Not as much though as seeing a cheery young man wondering round in his circumcision outfit obviously with no idea of what is to come
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:D
 
boyfalldown said:
It prooves nothing more then Islam is not the only religion to spread itself my violence. Which was pretty clear if you'd managed to read the whole convesation
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The issue is it is still spreading by use of violence.
 
big soft moose said:
no they don't - you can't be forced to convert to islam , you have to choose willingly
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Convert or die isn't much of a choice. Commit apostasy and be killed isn't much of a choice to leave it either for those who are Muslim. This show we are discussing had people outside the mosque shouting 'your son and daughter will be Muslim'.
 
boyfalldown said:
which kind of begs my next question. Assuming the vast majority are nothing more the peacful, productive members of society do you think that is a bad thing?. Societies change, religions change over time. History shows us this. I'm asking again from interest, nothing more.
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If the assumption is correct then no. I'm not convinced the assumption is correct when you look at the statistics and it won't take much for the moderates to shift. The day everyone has equal standing and the violence stops I might be persuaded, until such time I find it hard to believe that assumption. Many of the moderates that I know disapprove of the extremist methods, but in discussion it is clear that they don't disapprove of the ideology. In many ways very similar to the Tea party people.
 
boyfalldown said:
Christianity or Islam? Both have violent extremists today
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What threat are the west facing from Christian fundamentalism? Who are the Christian terror groups we need to watch out for and where are they being trained and who is financing them?
 
dejongj said:
In the Netherlands this was discussed and parliament and calculated to be a possibility within two generations. The possibility being that it will have become the largest religious group within the country.

I do think these events should be discussed regarding any particular group for whatever the reason may be.
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This may be true, but...
Allowing for the fact that the massive majority of their population have no religion, it wouldn't take a massive influx of any religion to become the most popular in the Netherlands. I believe the fastest growing religion in the UK atm is Catholicism, due to the numbers of Eastern Europeans making this their home.
 
Phil V said:
I believe the fastest growing religion in the UK atm is Catholicism, due to the numbers of Eastern Europeans making this their home.
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I think this is true. There is a catholic church here which is full and has a waiting list due to the number of Polish people here. Contrast this to the church my wife used to go to which closed just before Christmas as it had a congregation of about three.


Steve.
 
big soft moose said:
name one case and evidence it (prefferably not with a link from a right wing rag, which includes the hiel, the express and the torygraph) where someone who wants to has not been able to maintain british traditions or heritage, because another ethnic group also want to maintain theirs

Personally I take the line that "i'm perfectly happy for you to do what you like, so long as you also allow me to do what i like" (both within the law obviously). in this case that means i don't much care if two somalis with a civil dispute want it settled by their community elder or iman rather than going to small claims court - so long as they don't expect me to submit to a court that i don't recognise as legitimate.
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This is coming to a town near you............

 
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simon ess said:
Arranged marriages occur in a number of religious / cultural groups and tend to work rather well in comparison to our system.
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Only because the wives do as they are told. Seen it first hand before you ask..........
 
h14nha said:
Only because the wives do as they are told. Seen it first hand before you ask..........
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And so have I. I lived for two years in a street where I was the only non-subcontinental.

Let's say we have a different perception of the matter.

It was a great place to live BTW.
 
Phil V said:
This may be true, but...
Allowing for the fact that the massive majority of their population have no religion, it wouldn't take a massive influx of any religion to become the most popular in the Netherlands. I believe the fastest growing religion in the UK atm is Catholicism, due to the numbers of Eastern Europeans making this their home.
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It would be interesting to see the figures that back that up, bring on the next census :) The only times I see or hear that our local Catholic church full (my wife is RC) is at Christmas, and during the communion season. And mainly through super large traveller families. I guess we all have our experiences.

Once it is news enough in the UK to be discussed in parliament then I'll sit up and pay attention to it. But notwithstanding that, I'd be just as much against Catholicism taking a more prominent role in society, governance and law as any other religion like Islam. I am still disgusted by the hypocrisy of the RC Church, the same backwards attitude against inclusion of all. Those stupid man made rules go against my belief of what is right. The current pope has truly outdone himself yet again with his silly irresponsible speech regarding natural family planning this week. I just don't get it unless they want to fight Islam with the same weapons and increase the population even further...
 
It's time to separate church and state (not going to happen I realise).
Those blaming 'liberal lefties are stuck in the 70's, the left wing has no power or influence of any substance in the country.

The largest influential group defending Islam are the Christian church, who:
a, Have a divine right to a seat at the table, so they have genuine influence
b, The only way to protect their 'special treatment' and also their influence under the law is to allow special treatment for other faiths too.

If we had a genuinely secular society we could soon dampen the influence of religion on our culture, but that's not likely to happen unless anyone believes the Muslims are about to fight for the Monarchy.
 
ST4 said:
OPen your eyes and take a walk...
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I do take a walk, I haven't come across any Sharia Officers in uniform telling me what I can or cannot do. I haven't seen any signs or anything. I see lots of other stereotypes like men in dresses and beards, also lots of range rover sports for some reason, and plenty of chicken shops....Or more seriously there are obviously lots of areas that are clearly muslim majority area, but can't say I've actually witnessed law enforcers.
 
Phil V said:
It's time to separate church and state (not going to happen I realise).
Those blaming 'liberal lefties are stuck in the 70's, the left wing has no power or influence of any substance in the country.

The largest influential group defending Islam are the Christian church, who:
a, Have a divine right to a seat at the table, so they have genuine influence
b, The only way to protect their 'special treatment' and also their influence under the law is to allow special treatment for other faiths too.

If we had a genuinely secular society we could soon dampen the influence of religion on our culture, but that's not likely to happen unless anyone believes the Muslims are about to fight for the Monarchy.
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I think it will happen, unfortunately not so sure it will make a profound difference...
 
dejongj said:
It would be interesting to see the figures that back that up, bring on the next census :) The only times I see or hear that our local Catholic church full (my wife is RC) is at Christmas, and during the communion season. And mainly through super large traveller families. I guess we all have our experiences.

Once it is news enough in the UK to be discussed in parliament then I'll sit up and pay attention to it. But notwithstanding that, I'd be just as much against Catholicism taking a more prominent role in society, governance and law as any other religion like Islam. I am still disgusted by the hypocrisy of the RC Church, the same backwards attitude against inclusion of all. Those stupid man made rules go against my belief of what is right. The current pope has truly outdone himself yet again with his silly irresponsible speech regarding natural family planning this week. I just don't get it unless they want to fight Islam with the same weapons and increase the population even further...
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The Pope was against Catholics 'breeding like rabbits' wasn't he? Muslim countries are also suffering falling birth rates which will slow the Muslim population down.
 
dejongj said:
It would be interesting to see the figures that back that up, bring on the next census :) The only times I see or hear that our local Catholic church full (my wife is RC) is at Christmas, and during the communion season. And mainly through super large traveller families. I guess we all have our experiences.

Once it is news enough in the UK to be discussed in parliament then I'll sit up and pay attention to it. But notwithstanding that, I'd be just as much against Catholicism taking a more prominent role in society, governance and law as any other religion like Islam. I am still disgusted by the hypocrisy of the RC Church, the same backwards attitude against inclusion of all. Those stupid man made rules go against my belief of what is right. The current pope has truly outdone himself yet again with his silly irresponsible speech regarding natural family planning this week. I just don't get it unless they want to fight Islam with the same weapons and increase the population even further...
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If you've got me mixed up with some kind of religious (particularly RC) apologist, you should read the post above. :)
The growth of Catholicism has been widely reported, the Census won't back it up unfortunately, it only acknowledges 'Christian'. But compared to Islamification, it's not really a 'news' story.
 
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Laudrup said:
What threat are the west facing from Christian fundamentalism? Who are the Christian terror groups we need to watch out for and where are they being trained and who is financing them?
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Hasn't this been done to death in the thread already. Read, from the beginning
 
Laudrup said:
The Pope was against Catholics 'breeding like rabbits' wasn't he? Muslim countries are also suffering falling birth rates which will slow the Muslim population down.
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He did make that comment, yet at the same time he is still promoting natural contraception only. Whilst Muslim countries may suffer falling birth rates, in the Netherlands they run at either 4.8 or 5.3 (I can't remember) compared to 2.3 for a non-muslim and other religion sample. It is a stark difference in family size and planning.

Phil V said:
If you've got me mixed up with some kind of religious (particularly RC) apologist, you should read the post above. :)
The growth of Catholicism has been widely reported, the Census won't back it up unfortunately, it only acknowledges 'Christian'. But compared to Islamification, it's not really a 'news' story.
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I haven't. And to be honest Catholicism is Christianity thus the census should pick it up and demonstrate the overall increase. As I said in the local area it is not noticeable except for special occasions, another hypocracy I've got with that faith. If there was significant growth then it would be a news story...
 
dejongj said:
...

I haven't. And to be honest Catholicism is Christianity thus the census should pick it up and demonstrate the overall increase. As I said in the local area it is not noticeable except for special occasions, another hypocracy I've got with that faith. If there was significant growth then it would be a news story...
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How would that be visible when the numbers of other Christian denominations are shrinking? They'd shrink slower, but what would that be proof of without lower level data?
 
Phil V said:
How would that be visible when the numbers of other Christian denominations are shrinking? They'd shrink slower, but what would that be proof of without lower level data?
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In that case the overall Christianity doesn't grow, so what is the issue? Would be even better if it all shrunk :)
 
dejongj said:
In that case the overall Christianity doesn't grow, so what is the issue? Would be even better if it all shrunk :)
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I don't disagree, but it doesn't alter my original point, which is that Catholicism, rather than Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK... etc. etc.

And my other point about the CofE being responsible for the influence Islam is allowed to have in society generally and the education system most worryingly.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want your children to be indoctrinated into a religion at school, you should have to pay for the privilege. It isn't the taxpayers job to subsidise a religion spreading fairy stories instead of teaching science and tolerance (whether that's catholicism, Islam or fundamental christianity).
 
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