Angry White and Thick

[SFTPhotography]

Those guys were goading the EDL (or whatever they call themselves these days) lot that had turned up to goad them.

They have the right to their opinions too.

 

[Laudrup]

The security services probably love it - by jumping up and down with silly taunts they draw attention to themselves , like that silly pillock the FBI just busted trying to buy a gun , he brought himself to their attention by posting online about supporting ISIS.

The ones we (and the security services) should worry about are the ones who arent saying anything publically , but a quietly preparinbg to take action hoping to stay under the authorities radar until its too late

If someone is allegedly posting under an alias on twitter about waging jihad and supporting ISIS and you see he is buying 600 rounds of ammo and two semi-automatic rifles then you would be a fool not to act.

The FBI and Homeland security summed it up:

“Terrorist group members and supporters will almost certainly continue to use social media platforms to disseminate English language violent extremist messages."

They have to be kept an eye on.

 

[viv1969]

Put that wat though, the authorities could see their words not as as an opinion, but as a statement of intent.

 

[norters]

“We’re going to take over the UK with Sharia,” Choudary’s followers taunt them. “Your son will be Muslim! Your daughter will be Muslim!”

What is to be made of that?

A bunch of twaddle that any real Muslim would laugh at. Those people were not even allowed to pray in the mosque and rightly so.

 

[TheBigYin]

i really think this thread title should be somebodys signature.....

put it this way, it's a really good job that only admins can alter custom name tags...

 

[Laudrup]

A bunch of twaddle that any real Muslim would laugh at. Those people were not even allowed to pray in the mosque and rightly so.

There have been polls that indicated 40% of British Muslims supported “there being areas in Britain which are pre-dominately Muslim and in which sharia law is introduced”.

On people like Choudray:

The majority of Britons convicted of offenses related to Islamic extremism in the past 15 years have been members or supporters of Choudary’s network.

At least 80 people with ties to Choudary or his organizations have been implicated in terrorism cases ranging from the July 2005 bombings on the London transit system to last year’s killing and near-decapitation of a 25-year-old British soldier, Lee Rigby, on a London street.

Which would indicate something more serious than them just turning up to goad the EDL.

 

[new2me]

Which would indicate something more serious than them just turning up to goad the EDL.

They didn't turn up to goad the white guys though, they turned up to listen to their 'leader' and responded to the goading. You originally asked what we thought about the comments they made. The rest has been done to death with plenty of links from various members already.

 

[MWHCVT]

Read right up until the point I saw EDL, and skipped the rest of the thread. I'll just voice my opinion on immigration, personally I love the varity of nations we have in this country, and I don't hold it against anyone one to want to come to this country, personally I've met a fair few from EDL and I've also met a fair few immigrants and more over spent some time with illegal immigrants that were waiting on the results of their hearings...

I'll say this right now pretty much any of the immigrants would be welcome in my home before any of the EDL lot they are among some of the most vile people on this country, they say the defend England for the English, well their views on what being English is and mine are very different that's all I can say

 

[Laudrup]

They didn't turn up to goad the white guys though, they turned up to listen to their 'leader' and responded to the goading. You originally asked what we thought about the comments they made. The rest has been done to death with plenty of links from various members already.

You said you thought 'nothing' is to be made of these comments and it is simply 'goading' despite reports of Choudary's followers being implicated in terrorism cases and Choudary himself calling the 9/11 hijackers 'magnificent martyrs'. I would hope the security services are keeping close tabs on him and all his followers and not dismissing it as goading a few folk out the EDL.

 

[Laudrup]

Read right up until the point I saw EDL, and skipped the rest of the thread. I'll just voice my opinion on immigration, personally I love the varity of nations we have in this country, and I don't hold it against anyone one to want to come to this country, personally I've met a fair few from EDL and I've also met a fair few immigrants and more over spent some time with illegal immigrants that were waiting on the results of their hearings...

I'll say this right now pretty much any of the immigrants would be welcome in my home before any of the EDL lot they are among some of the most vile people on this country, they say the defend England for the English, well their views on what being English is and mine are very different that's all I can say

It wasn't really much to do with immigration and more to do with radical Islam and anti-Islam protesting.

 

[MWHCVT]

It wasn't really much to do with immigration and more to do with radical Islam and anti-Islam protesting.

EDL and their ilk are anti pretty much anything that isn't White English and I cannot stand that any more than I could stand radical Islam, or radical pretty much anything, I'm not even all that much on redical wedding photographers

 

[new2me]

You said you thought 'nothing' is to be made of these comments and it is simply 'goading' despite reports of Choudary's followers being implicated in terrorism cases and Choudary himself calling the 9/11 hijackers 'magnificent martyrs'. I would hope the security services are keeping close tabs on him and all his followers and not dismissing it as goading a few folk out the EDL.

That's right, I think nothing is to be made of their open display of disrespect for a bunch of white guys shouting abuse at them.

 

[big soft moose]

There have been polls that indicated 40% of British Muslims supported “there being areas in Britain which are pre-dominately Muslim and in which sharia law is introduced”.
.

so thats 40% of 5% of the population ie 2% of the Uk population - and that assuming the polls are accurate.

Also there arent any areas in britain that are predominantly muslim - Tower hamlets has the highest percentage with 35.6%

 

[big soft moose]

If someone is allegedly posting under an alias on twitter about waging jihad and supporting ISIS and you see he is buying 600 rounds of ammo and two semi-automatic rifles then you would be a fool not to act.
.

I think you missed the point

the ones who post on twiitter/chant in the street etc are never going to be a serious threat because they are essentially telling the security services who they are and what they intend to do.

The serious threat comes from those who stay off the radar and just take action

 

[Laudrup]

so thats 40% of 5% of the population ie 2% of the Uk population - and that assuming the polls are accurate.

Also there arent any areas in britain that are predominantly muslim - Tower hamlets has the highest percentage with 35.6%

The polls are by ICM who are a respected public opinion researcher. Sharia courts in the UK aren't a new concept, it's not like the whole town has to be predominantly Muslim before people would use them.

The Islamic Sharia Council says its aim is for the principles of sharia to be eventually recognised in English law.

The group says: “Though the Council is not yet legally recognised by the authorities in the UK, the fact that it is already established, and is gradually gaining ground among the Muslim community, and the satisfaction attained by those who seek its ruling, are all preparatory steps towards the final goal of gaining the confidence of the host community in the soundness of the Islamic legal system and the help and insight they could gain from it.”

 

[big soft moose]

but if their supprters only make up 2% of the UK population then they don't have a hope in hell of that being voted into UK law

 

[Laudrup]

I think you missed the point

the ones who post on twiitter/chant in the street etc are never going to be a serious threat because they are essentially telling the security services who they are and what they intend to do.

The serious threat comes from those who stay off the radar and just take action

Michael Adebolajo (in white) the murderer of Lee Rigby on the street protesting:

Source: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/radical-islamist-preacher-anjem-choudary-2945584

However, the committee flagged up an online exchange between Adebowale and an overseas extremist, which only came to light after the attack.

In the exchange from December 2012, Adebowale expresses his intent to murder a soldier in a "graphic and emotive" manner.

The report does not name the company that hosted the exchange but the BBC understands it was Facebook.

The head of GCHQ is calling twitter, facebook and youtube the 'command and control network of choice for terrorists'. Far from being 'off the radar' these social media platforms are being used more and more. This Christopher Lee Cornell was allegedly posting under the name Raheel Mahrus Ubaydah on twitter and was 'ready to go' with his attack according to the FBI.

 

[big soft moose]

. Far from being 'off the radar' these social media platforms are being used more and more. This Christopher Lee Cornell was allegedly posting under the name Raheel Mahrus Ubaydah on twitter and was 'ready to go' with his attack according to the FBI.

You are still missing the point - the reason the FBI caught cornell was because he brought himself to their attention via his tweets - they also said that "the public were neve rin any danger because [they] had cornell under survelliance all along.

Had he exhibitted more common sense and kept his mouth shut he might have actually managed to cary out his attack undetected.

Ergo its in the security services interests for these f***wits to use social media as much as possible. Its in the terrorists interests not to, but thankfully a lot of them don't seem that bright

 

[boyfalldown]

We're not suffering a spate of attacks in the west or abroad from lone people on street corners saying 'repent the end is nigh' though. It's coming from Islamic fundamentalists that this show was mostly about.

you asked what we thought. I told you what I thought. Hope thats OK

 

[new2me]

You said you thought 'nothing' is to be made of these comments and it is simply 'goading' despite reports of Choudary's followers being implicated in terrorism cases and Choudary himself calling the 9/11 hijackers 'magnificent martyrs'. I would hope the security services are keeping close tabs on him and all his followers and not dismissing it as goading a few folk out the EDL.

Actually, I watched the section again around the Choudary followers and the guy who predicted "your daughter will be Muslim" may not have been one of them, but simply caught up the excitement as he left the Mosque. It's a shame that some folk are so quick to lump them all together.

 

[boyfalldown]

There have been polls that indicated 40% of British Muslims supported “there being areas in Britain which are pre-dominately Muslim and in which sharia law is introduced”.

In a 2006 poll (recent that, reflective of current opinion) it was indeed the case. But from the wording of that question its impossible to tell if they meant "floggings,stonings and beheadings on the streets on London" or a slightly more likely "if both parties agree, we'd like to settle civil matters (debt, divorce etc) by shaira law please"

which do you think it was?

 

[Deleted member 49549]

so thats 40% of 5% of the population ie 2% of the Uk population - and that assuming the polls are accurate.

Also there arent any areas in britain that are predominantly muslim - Tower hamlets has the highest percentage with 35.6%

From the same poll:-

80 per cent of those polled agreed that although “Western society may not be perfect… Muslims should live within it and not seek to bring it to an end.”

 

[Fodrigal]

The head of GCHQ is calling twitter, facebook and youtube the 'command and control network of choice for terrorists'. Far from being 'off the radar' these social media platforms are being used more and more. This Christopher Lee Cornell was allegedly posting under the name Raheel Mahrus Ubaydah on twitter and was 'ready to go' with his attack according to the FBI.

Sounds like they are just attempting to whip up the public fears so they can pass new laws to snoop on twitter/facebook etc

There are far more secure ways of communicating on the internet (TOR for example) that I'm sure any of the serious terrorists would be using.

There are obviously the big loud idiots who post all over social media, but there's no way its the "command and control network of choice".

 

[big soft moose]

reading the FT article in question he's calling for US tech companies in general to cooperate more with security services particularly vis a vis encypted comunication channels and the help these give terrorists and criminals in communicating anonymously. Its that that he is reffering to as the command and control network of choice not facebook or twitter . In particlar he singles out Apple, Microsoft, Yahoo and Google for their promise of incorporating greater encryption into their services.

The main issue being that if email is encrypted it will make it harder for GCHQ / NSA to read online ( I can't help feeling this is a bit of a non event given that encryption programs have been available for ages anyway)

He is also seperately concerned that Islamic state are using popular hashtags on twitter and facebook and whatsapp to increase their online presence with possible ramifications for increased radicalisation of vulnerable asian/muslim youth

 

[Laudrup]

You are still missing the point - the reason the FBI caught cornell was because he brought himself to their attention via his tweets - they also said that "the public were neve rin any danger because [they] had cornell under survelliance all along.

Had he exhibitted more common sense and kept his mouth shut he might have actually managed to cary out his attack undetected.

Ergo its in the security services interests for these f***wits to use social media as much as possible. Its in the terrorists interests not to, but thankfully a lot of them don't seem that bright

You are saying you don't need to worry about those people chanting on the street, yet there was one of the killers of Lee Rigby doing exactly that.

People will post pro-ISIS support online but the man the FBI caught was contacted by another person looking for leniency on another crime and they allegedly exchanged ideas on the attack on a separate messaging platform. He sounds a bit stupid or it might be a set up we'll need to see. It's the people sympathetic to these terrorists that wouldn't fall for such a simple ruse that post messages the intelligence services can't intercept you need to worry about too.

 

[h14nha]

You are saying you don't need to worry about those people chanting on the street, yet there was one of the killers of Lee Rigby doing exactly that.

The 7/7 bombers, 9/11 perpetrators, the shoe bomber all had links to street preachers too. The frightening thing is the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS are minorities in the Muslim countries in which they operate, yet they manage rule the land with an iron fist. Peaceful Muslims do as they bid for fear of their lives.
Now in Britain, the name Mohammed, and its spelling variants make up the most common name for newborn male babies. In a generation or two it won't matter what non muslims want, we will be out voted by the masses. I wonder then how much 'tolerance' will be shown to people who like a drink, or women who wear revealing clothing. Check out YouTube to see the 'Muslim Vigilantes' patrolling the streets abusing people doing things they don't approve of...........
Just saying

The problem in Britain is Europe. As we're not in the Euro we doing better than most of the rest of the european countries. As a result, people want to come here. its not their fault, they have hungry families to feed. As for British people being too lazy to pick fruit, how can a man living in Britain ( and not living in a squat with 10 other people ) feed a family on that income. Give an unemployed Brit the equivalent 4 x payrise they get by coming here, and I suspect many Brits would be happy to go clean toilets in Warsaw. Minimum British wage £260/week, minimum Polish wage £308/month ( in 2010 it was £218/month in Poland )

 

[tarric]

I have friends from many different back grounds and consider myself tolerant of most cultures, when I visit their county I obey their laws and am respectful of their customs and traditions and I expect the same in return. I have no problem with legal migrants but think illegal migrants should be repatriated. As for the small minority of people who want to change the law, tradition and culture of this country I think we should be careful. You think that there is no problem with 2% of the population wanting to introduce shaira law or do away with our traditions and culture. In 1920 the membership of the NationalSocialist German Workers' Partywas around 2000 and in 1921 a certain Adolf Hitler became leader this rose steadily until in 1933 they had taken power in Germany and by 1939 less than 20 years later started the second world war 2% of the UK population is 1,282,000 so even if only 1% of these are radical fundamentalists that’s still 6 times larger than where he started from and thats just in the UK. These are often misquoted phrases but very apt

For evil men to accomplish their purpose it is only necessary that good men should do nothing.”

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[boyfalldown]

Wow. Godwin's law and it only took 147 posts. I'm amazed it lasted so long. Maybe time for a lock now?

 

[dejongj]

What did people think of the Muslim shouting 'your son and daughter will be Muslim' outside the mosque?

Unfortunately he had got a point. Give it a few generations on the current course and it will become inevitable. Some other countries are "better" than us though, last year Mohammed was the most popular name for a baby boy in the Netherlands. It is calculated that in two generations they'll be in the lead. Ergo unavoidable for the future in my opinion. But that is ok, it is a peaceful religion as we keep on being reminded.

 

[dejongj]

The 7/7 bombers, 9/11 perpetrators, the shoe bomber all had links to street preachers too. The frightening thing is the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS are minorities in the Muslim countries in which they operate, yet they manage rule the land with an iron fist. Peaceful Muslims do as they bid for fear of their lives.
Now in Britain, the name Mohammed, and its spelling variants make up the most common name for newborn male babies. In a generation or two it won't matter what non muslims want, we will be out voted by the masses. I wonder then how much 'tolerance' will be shown to people who like a drink, or women who wear revealing clothing. Check out YouTube to see the 'Muslim Vigilantes' patrolling the streets abusing people doing things they don't approve of...........
Just saying

Are you sure that Mohammed is the most common in the UK yet? I know it is the case in the Netherlands and that was widely reported and discussed in their parliament, but hadn't seen anything from the UK that we are that close here as well?

Other than several years back where a handful made a few comments to people in East London, have there really been any further muslim patrols? I thought that was stopped pretty pronto. Or have you got information that today this is still happening?

 

[viv1969]

Wow. Godwin's law and it only took 147 posts. I'm amazed it lasted so long. Maybe time for a lock now?

Utter rubbish.
If you don't wish to read or partake in the thread any further, feel free not to. Doesn't mean it should be locked simply because someone invoked a name...at the same time as making a perfectly valid point btw.

 

[Byker28i]

Now in Britain, the name Mohammed, and its spelling variants make up the most common name for newborn male babies. In a generation or two it won't matter what non muslims want, we will be out voted by the masses. I wonder then how much 'tolerance' will be shown to people who like a drink, or women who wear revealing clothing. Check out YouTube to see the 'Muslim Vigilantes' patrolling the streets abusing people doing things they don't approve of...........
Just saying

You do know that these are all the variants combined, and if all the variants of English names, such as Oliver and oldie, James, jim, jamie etc were combined then they wouldn't even be close.
But then that wouldn't make a newspaper story and would fit your argument would it.

By the way, mo farah has Mohammed as a first name? Would you call him a positive or negative influence?


You list all these tyrannical influence in Islamic countries. What's your experience of these outside the uk papers?

 

[boyfalldown]

Utter rubbish.
If you don't wish to read or partake in the thread any further, feel free not to. Doesn't mean it should be locked simply because someone invoked a name...at the same time as making a perfectly valid point btw.

wooahhh. Godwin's law wasn't invoked then? I think it intesersting and disturbing that someone can seriously relate 1920's Germany on any level to any religion today.

 

[Steve Smith]

wooahhh. Godwin's law wasn't invoked then? I think it intesersting and disturbing that someone can seriously relate 1920's Germany on any level to any religion today.

It's was all about intolerance - just as it is today.


Steve.

 

[boyfalldown]

It's was all about intolerance - just as it is today.


Steve.

History shows us that the circumstance that allowed Hitler's rise wasn't just about intolerance altough he was fairly good at blaming others (and stiring hatered of those others). And many historians now consider WW1>Spanish Civil War>WW2 as one confilict (with a bit of a break in the middle) but thats another thread.

The majority of the intolerence I see today is towards normal, law abiding muslims who wish nothing more then to get on witth their lives. They view the likes of Choudary et al... in the same way as I view the likes of the Westboro Baptist Church or the average moderate Jew views the Jewish Defense League. With nothing but distain.

 

[dejongj]

You do know that these are all the variants combined, and if all the variants of English names, such as Oliver and oldie, James, jim, jamie etc were combined then they wouldn't even be close.
But then that wouldn't make a newspaper story and would fit your argument would it.

By the way, mo farah has Mohammed as a first name? Would you call him a positive or negative influence?


You list all these tyrannical influence in Islamic countries. What's your experience of these outside the uk papers?

The point was to demonstrate how strong the increases are in that community. I think when it was discussed in the Netherlands in parliament they did include all variants. The point being made there was that the average family size is 4.8 or 5.3 (I can't recall the exact number) in Muslim families compared to 2.3 in non muslim families. The growth rate is such that it should be a topic for discussion, and that brings it down to the chaps in front of the mosque. They are right, it will change and it will influence all of us. And in proper democratic ways that could have severe impacts.

I don't have an issue with religion unless people want to impose their man made rules on everyone else in society. It is heading for a huge clash unfortunately.

I have no idea about the answer, perhaps have both systems run in parallel for a while with clear communication and publication on the outcomes such that people can see the fairness in equality. Although I feel like a hypocrite making that last statement as our beloved free governments constantly favour one of the other and there is little true equality.

 

[viv1969]

wooahhh. Godwin's law wasn't invoked then? I think it intesersting and disturbing that someone can seriously relate 1920's Germany on any level to any religion today.

I think screaming "Godwin! Godwin!" every time anything relating to Hitler / WWII / Nazism is utter tosh.
How you can't think the rise of an extreme minority group to such power isn't at least a little relevant to the current conversation is beyond me.
Why are people so intent on fannying around when it comes to the subject?

 

[boyfalldown]

I think screaming "Godwin! Godwin!" every time anything relating to Hitler / WWII / Nazism is utter tosh.
How you can't think the rise of an extreme minority group to such power isn't at least a little relevant to the current conversation is beyond me.
Why are people so intent on fannying around when it comes to the subject?

I think we'd disagree about Godwin

I'm not intent on fannying around but I don't really see any relevance to the Nazi's. Unless you would suggest it relevant that we look more closely at the causes of that groups rise to power, and the difference and simarlarities between 1920s Europe and today. It would be difficult to ignore things such as the treaty of Versace when doing so. As I said its not really relevant

 

[ghoti]

I think screaming "Godwin! Godwin!" every time anything relating to Hitler / WWII / Nazism is utter tosh.
How you can't think the rise of an extreme minority group to such power isn't at least a little relevant to the current conversation is beyond me.
Why are people so intent on fannying around when it comes to the subject?

Godwin's "law" was meant to be a JOKE. I'm always astounded to see people bringing it up as if it means anything.
And, in any case, of course you're right, comparisons with the nazis are pretty relevant in a discussion about institutional racism.

 

[Laudrup]

you asked what we thought. I told you what I thought. Hope thats OK

Yes that's ok, but it's still an irrelevant comparison.