Angry White and Thick

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norters said:
Sorry for the colourful quote but it sums my view on patriotism/nationalism up perfectly
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Mine is the opposite. People belong to communities, to countries and have a shared and vested interest in that community/country etc. They take pride in belonging to that, they are proud of who they are, who their forebears were and the land in which they live and are from.

That's my feeling.
 
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That's not answered my question by miles. The vast majority of 'non British' people are here legally and not asylum seekers.

They're generally economic migrants, whether lawyers or cleaners. This is where the media whips up a frenzy for the unthinking. Just talking about illegal immigrants in a response to my question is laughable.

How about answering the question? :)
 
I dislike extremes of any persuasions. The country we live in accepts that people have a right to voice an opinion, but when that opinion incites hatred and tension, then those extremists, whether left wing,right wing,Islamic fundamentalist or whatever, need to be controlled.

I found the documentry embarrassing to be honest.

But then i`m embarrassed by a lot of the actions of British people,especially when overseas.
 
ST4 said:
British born works for me.
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But most of the muslims you were moaning about are british born - so why doesnt this include them ?
 
big soft moose said:
But most of the muslims you were moaning about are british born - so why doesnt this include them ?
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Where have I moaned about Muslims? I'll clarify for you in the event you are not be obtuse.

I moan about the influx of people into the UK as we see, but not those who have been here for 2/3 generations. I complain about those who preach they hate us and our way of life, yet are happy to live here and prosper here yet see us as infadels, (you know, the jihadist types).

All this sort of thing: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...to-house-migrants-says-interior-minister.html

We need to prevent illegals coming here.
 
Phil V said:
That's not answered my question by miles. The vast majority of 'non British' people are here legally and not asylum seekers.

They're generally economic migrants, whether lawyers or cleaners. This is where the media whips up a frenzy for the unthinking. Just talking about illegal immigrants in a response to my question is laughable.

How about answering the question? :)
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174k illegals "lost"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ses-174-000-illegal-immigrants-Scathing-dossi

Of these economic migrants, how many do we need to fill jobs that British born jobseekers/out of work people can do. Until every person who can work, is working in Britain, there are no needs for economic migrants. IMHO.
 
Any idea if any have been found in the 13 months since 'The Mail' published that?

**Edit**

Beg your pardon. I obviously skipped a year somewhere.

Very damning if true.
 
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ST4 said:
Where have I moaned about Muslims? I'll clarify for you in the event you are not be obtuse.

I moan about the influx of people into the UK as we see, but not those who have been here for 2/3 generations. I complain about those who preach they hate us and our way of life, yet are happy to live here and prosper here yet see us as infadels, (you know, the jihadist types).

We need to prevent illegals coming here.
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yeah but even most of the jihadist types arent illegals (if they were they'd be easy to deal with), the majority of them are British 2nd or 3rd generation- they just don't see the future of britain the same as we do. Also mostly they arent in fact prospering - its discontent that leads to radicalisation
 
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ST4 said:
Of these economic migrants, how many do we need to fill jobs that British born jobseekers/out of work people can do. Until every person who can work, is working in Britain, there are no needs for economic migrants. IMHO.
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we've had this discussion before - there are more brits working abroad than there are economic migrants working here. Also the hard fact is that a lot of migrants are a dam sight harder working and more reliable than a lot of the british jobless...
 
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big soft moose said:
yeah but even most of the jihadist types arent illegals (if they were they'd be easy to deal with), the majority of them are British 2nd or 3rd generation- they just don't see the future of britain the same as we do. Also mostly they arent in fact prospering - its discontent that leads to radicalisation
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None of us prosper as much as we want to. Doesn't mean we start blowing ourselves and others up. Most UK born Muslims are fine, and they aren't all prospering. However, my view is, that when you let in so many people who's culture is so radically different to yours then you can expect to see clashes and trouble from the hardliners of those you let in.

big soft moose said:
we've had this discussion before - there are more brits working abroad than there are economic migrants working here. Also the hard fact is that a lot of migrants are a dam sight harder working and more reliable than a lot of the british jobless...
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British people are capable, reliable and industrious. Its offensive to imply otherwise.

I accept we export and import people, but the sheer number of people coming here to do menial jobs (fruit picking, working in Lidl) when people here can do this seems odd given our unemployment rate
 
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ST4 said:
LOL...

Here is another link that shows the extent of the issue

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ship-seized-by-illegal-immigrants-latest.html

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/03/migr-j03.html

These are only the ones we know of. Quick google unearthed these.
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I'm not sure how to ship loads of migrants in the mediteran shows a problem with illegal imigration to britain - last time i checked there was a continent and a body of water between here and there...
 
ST4 said:
British people are capable, reliable and industrious. Its offensive to imply otherwise.
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Now I know you are just trolling - werent you talking about shiftless junkie scum who needed shooting in the face not that long ago
 
big soft moose said:
Now I know you are just trolling - werent you talking about shiftless junkie scum who needed shooting in the face not that long ago
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Now you are trolling. Not all British people, far from it actually, are shiftless junkie scum who needed shooting in the face.

If you are implying that they are, then you are really on a roll.
 
big soft moose said:
I'm not sure how to ship loads of migrants in the mediteran shows a problem with illegal imigration to britain - last time i checked there was a continent and a body of water between here and there...
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Don't be obtuse, a lot of them will work their way through Italy and France to here. It's a big problem. One the Royal Navy could solve by torpedoing the ships...but our leaders are too spineless to protect us from Illegal invaders.
 
ST4 said:
Now you are trolling. Not all British people, far from it actually, are shiftless junkie scum who needed shooting in the face.

If you are implying that they are, then you are really on a roll.
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No not all are - but some british jobless are , some others are just shiftless scum, while some are just unlucky , or live in areas where theres no work - but if somreone is an ureliable p***head who frequently turns up to work drunk , when he trns up at all, and does the bare minimum of work unless the foreman is standing overhim and then gets fired for it, the reason he's jobless is not "because the imigrants have taken all the jobs"

my point was that for you to say "british people are hardworking and its insulting to say otherwise" is a massively sweeping generalisation not supported by the facts, its also more than little ironic for you to say othewise shortly after describing some of them as "shiftless junkie scum"
 
ST4 said:
Don't be obtuse, a lot of them will work their way through Italy and France to here. It's a big problem. One the Royal Navy could solve by torpedoing the ships...but our leaders are too spineless to protect us from Illegal invaders.
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I'd be more convined of the massiveness of the problem if you had any sources other than the right wing press , or any actual facts about the number of illegals in the UK
 
norters said:
Sorry for the colourful quote but it sums my view on patriotism/nationalism up perfectly
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Biggest heap o ' pish I've read in ages. (Not that comment but the comments on the attachment).
 
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I have no issue at all with immigrants coming here to work (illegal or otherwise to be honest), they are only trying to find a better life in another country, and will often be coming from places we certainly wouldn't want to live.

If on the other hand they are coming with anything other than that in mind (criminal enterprise/benefit fraud etc) I do believe they should then be automatically deported, but as there are huge numbers of native criminals and benefits cheats I don't see immigration as the crux of the major issues in our society.
 
big soft moose said:
I'd be more convined of the massiveness of the problem if you had any sources other than the right wing press , or any actual facts about the number of illegals in the UK
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I didn't quote the right wing press

LOL...

Here is another link that shows the extent of the issue

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ship-seized-by-illegal-immigrants-latest.html

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/03/migr-j03.html

These are only the ones we know of. Quick google unearthed these.

Was my original post.
 
So the telgraph isnt right wing then - really ?? - you know its known as the torygraph right ? (and also as the thinking mans daily mail)

okay I'll grant you that the world socialist website is more leftwing fruit cake than right wing fruitcake - but I'd be more convoinced if you had some propper facts from propper sources instead of hyperbole for people with agendas
 
mjScall said:
are huge numbers of native criminals and benefits cheats I don't see immigration as the crux of the major issues in our society.
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may be after we've beaten isis we should set up a penal colony is iraq and deport them as well ;)
 
big soft moose said:
So the telgraph isnt right wing then - really ?? - you know its known as the torygraph right ? (and also as the thinking mans daily mail)

okay I'll grant you that the world socialist website is more leftwing fruit cake than right wing fruitcake - but I'd be more convoinced if you had some propper facts from propper sources instead of hyperbole for people with agendas
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Man, you are hard work

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30653742

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30643368

Two different boats. Lots of illegals bound for Europe, many probably bound for the UK

Here's another

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29366295

Telegraph isn't remotely right wing, not in my view. Britain first maybe, not the Torygraph or the Tory party, not any more.
 
Just ignoring my question then?
 
Phil V said:
Who are 'my governments own people'?
Does it include the Anglo Saxons (being of Celtic origin I'm not sure whether I'm comfortable with that), just people who can trace their families back pre 1900 in the UK? 1950? any 2nd generation? anyone from the colonies? anyone that's returning after their families had moved abroad? Am I overcomplicating it?
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ST4 said:
174k illegals "lost"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ses-174-000-illegal-immigrants-Scathing-dossi

Of these economic migrants, how many do we need to fill jobs that British born jobseekers/out of work people can do. Until every person who can work, is working in Britain, there are no needs for economic migrants. IMHO.
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This post really does show an amazing lack of any clue. Do you really think that if 100 immigrants come into this country, that means 100 less jobs? You do know how the economy works - more people producing / earning means more jobs and wealth for the others, this is not a zero sum game. Really Steve, things are far less simplistic than you see.
 
Just ignoring my question then?
 
Rapscallion said:
This post really does show an amazing lack of any clue. Do you really think that if 100 immigrants come into this country, that means 100 less jobs? You do know how the economy works - more people producing / earning means more jobs and wealth for the others, this is not a zero sum game. Really Steve, things are far less simplistic than you see.
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No, we should embrace illegal immigrants with multi million £ houses and house them in the lap of luxury.

Never mind the risk of crime, disease, extremism undocumented illegals are extremely dangerous potentially. 174000 illegal people, and no clue where they are.

Why must we be a dumping ground for the dross of the world.
 
ST4 said:
No, we should embrace illegal immigrants with multi million £ houses and house them in the lap of luxury.

Never mind the risk of crime, disease, extremism undocumented illegals are extremely dangerous potentially. 174000 illegal people, and no clue where they are.

Why must we be a dumping ground for the dross of the world.
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Steve, if only you managed to make a consistent argument - the post I replied to you were talking about economic migrants. After me trying to discuss this point with you, you switch to talking about illegals...

Im back to the opinion that you have no intention of really discussing things on this forum, you are just trying to wind people by constantly and repeatedly changing the direction and content of your arguments as soon as they get questioned, (though I am happy to be proved wrong).
 
Rapscallion said:
Steve, if only you managed to make a consistent argument - the post I replied to you were talking about economic migrants. After me trying to discuss this point with you, you switch to talking about illegals...

Im back to the opinion that you have no intention of really discussing things on this forum, you are just trying to wind people by constantly and repeatedly changing the direction and content of your arguments as soon as they get questioned, (though I am happy to be proved wrong).
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Oh economic migrants, the ones that work in Lidl....LOL.
 
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ST4 said:
Man, you are hard work

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30653742

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30643368

Two different boats. Lots of illegals bound for Europe, many probably bound for the UK

Here's another

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29366295
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So two boatloads of imigrants in the med, heading respectively for Greece and Italy and a trucker who alledgedly saw 4 people get in the back of a lorry ... that doesnt add up to a massive problem in the UK

When i said propper facts from propper sources i meant maybe numbers of ilegals thought to be in the uk by those that would know, number of jobs thought to be filled by illegals , not speculation from a trucker named bob (Or whatever) , you know actual facts to substantiate the argument that illegals are taking the jobs the the UK unemployed should have

(which is clearly b*****ks when you stop to think about it because someone who's hear illegally can't take a job thats on the up and up , because they don't have any paperwork , so the only jobs they take are the grey ones not paying minimum wage, and illegal ones like prostituton... so they arent in fact having any impact at all on uk employment figures.

Legitimate economic migrants could be taking british jobs - except that more brits work in the EU than EU citizens do here
 
Listen, I have explained to you a) we had 174000 from another credible source of information undocumented illegals around (whether you don't deem a national newspaper like the DM as credible is your issue, not mine, as it is.

Here's another

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/453022/Illegal-immigrants-may-be-granted-free-access-to-NHS

https://fullfact.org/immigration/how_man_illegal_immigrants_uk-32868

http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/illegal-immigrants

The story of the trucker, the boats, that happens, its a problem.

There are none so blind who cannot see.
 
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sigh the daily heil is not a credible source of information on imigration (or much anything else) because they have an agenda and cherry pick facts to meet that agenda, the express is another right wing rag, if possible even less reliable than the mail.

And before you other to post it the guy on fox news who thing birmingham is all muslim - nope, no credibility there either

Course the granuaid and socialist worker etc are equally unreliable in the other direction

THe informed or educated person reads both the left and right wing news and as close to neutal as can be found, and does their own research ... figures that are consistently reported accross the spectrum (eg in the mail and the guardian ) are probably accurate - figures that are only quoted at one or other politcal extreme are probably at best exagerated or out of context or at worst absolute jounalistic fiction

Theres none so blind as those that read /watch rubbish and think is must be true because its in a newspaper/television screen
 
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