Angry driver let off after attacking cyclist

When I was taught to drive (including instruction using "Roadcraft", the police drivers' manual), we were taught to "allow them their wobbling space", and that if they showed no sign of being aware of your presence to give them a polite "toot" (not a lengthy blare) - the thinking being that it was doing them a kindness to warn them of your approach. Sadly, so many cyclists seem convinced of the immortality conferred by silly helmets that they are completely unaware of other traffic, don't have mirrors, and never look round - many a time I've come up behind a gaggle of them on a country lane, and driven for some distance following them, and not one has used a mirror or looked round - in desperation, you give them the polite "toot" and all hell breaks loose......... In my view, get a bloody mirror, use it, and display consideration to other road users - they demand it of us........

I had a recent near-accident when following a cyclist up a nearby lane - I was just about to overtake him ( I hadn't "tooted", I thought he'd be a blithering halfwit not to have noticed me) -he suddenly turned right, straight across my bows to go into a drive - no signal, no looking - I stood on the brakes, there was an impressive squeal, and then HE berated me.................for being awake and saving his life....I'll stick with the polite "toot" in future........
 
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jacob12_1993 said:
This could be your issue, why the hell are you beeping them? Would you come up behind a car and beep it? No, because that would suggest you had a problem with it. Coming up behind a group of cyclists and beeping is going to say 'get out of the way' rather than 'I'm here' hence the reaction
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I have to agree with this. I appreciate you're trying to being courteous, and I'm sorry that riders aren't reciprocating that, but tooting the horn (even politely) when you're behind probably doesn't endear you to the riders. Do you do the same behind a horse? I assume not because it would startle the horse. Well the same is true to a lesser extent for a cyclist. Particularly on quiet country lanes it's pretty hard not to hear a car approaching from behind so a beep of the horn really shouldn't be necessary.

I've also never heard of anyone being taught to sound their horn in this way.
 
I'd say that beeping a cyclist who is in the way is the equivalent to flashing a car on the motorway that you consider to be driving too slowly and you want them out of your way, basically a sign of impatience and bad manners, with the usual result that the recipient of the beep or flash will usually become LESS rather than more cooperative.
 
Wonder what the outcome would've have been if the cyclist stood up for himself and hit back ,he was probably too shocked at the van driver's reaction .
 
Beautifully put - we WERE taught the polite toot as part of safe driving. There is never any need to toot a horserider - they are unfailingly totally aware of all other road users, and always acknowledge your slowing down/stopping/waiting for them - why the hell can't bicyclists do the same?
 
Organnyx said:
Beautifully put - we WERE taught the polite toot as part of safe driving. There is never any need to toot a horserider - they are unfailingly totally aware of all other road users, and always acknowledge your slowing down/stopping/waiting for them - why the hell can't bicyclists do the same?
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You must have a special sort of horse riders around you. Plenty around here will cause a hold up by riding 2 a breast and not letting people past, though most are courteous too.

I honestly can't get my head around this blanket stereotyping of certain road users.

I think the meaning of using a horn has changed. They get used so often to express annoyance that they immediately put people's backs up as soon as they hear them. I also think it's easy to forget when you're in a car how loud they are to those outside. I'm sure everyone has been on the pavement when a car has sounded their horn next to them and it can be very startling. A gentle pip from inside a vehicle sounds quite different to someone close by who's not enclosed by glass and metal.

I suspect if anyone is experience a universal problem with cyclists (or any other type of road user for that matter) then there's something wrong with the way they approach them.
 
fabs said:
Beeping your horn is only ever supposed to let others know that you're there. For some reason, some people tend to react as if you've just questioned their sexuality and molested their children!
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I'm sure the highway code says it's to "warn" rather than "let" others know you are there, which implies there is an element of danger, such as someone in front who has forgotten to apply their handbrake and is rolling back towards you or someone who starts to pull into your path (eg from a side road) and you wish to avoid a collision.

Someone who is simply going slower than you wish does not come under the category of "warning".
 
London Headshots said:
Yeah, you posted something that didn't happen to you. Brilliant. Totally proved your point.
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Tell you what John, I strongly suggest you re-read what Marcel posted a couple of months ago. We get many of your posts reported and you need to think about your posting style unless you wish to go elsewhere.

Marcel said:
As you are probably aware, we have recently taken a harder stance on posts, attitude and behaviours that we feel are not fitting within the TP ethos of the 'Friendliest Forum'.
Such posts have had a massively damaging and negative effect on our reputation and some members have decided to leave as a result. This is unacceptable, hence our firmer approach.

To date we have issued announcements, sticky threads, post edits, and even issued short suspensions as a gentle reminder. Unfortunately, these haven't had the desired effect.

Therefore we are taking the bull by the horns and issuing direct messages to the members that pop up frequently in moderation discussions, RTM's and complaints.
This is the last warning you will receive to modify your attitude, behaviour, posting style or general demeanour on the forums. The next step will be a permanent ban. No exceptions, no warnings.

This is not up for discussion or debate. We are proud of our history of being an approachable and friendly forum, and we will no longer tolerate the minimal few disrupting the ambience and atmosphere for the rest through unnecessarily rude, abrupt, harsh and thoughtless posts.

Thanks, and we hope this message has the desired effect.
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boliston said:
I'm sure the highway code says it's to "warn" rather than "let" others know you are there, which implies there is an element of danger, such as someone in front who has forgotten to apply their handbrake and is rolling back towards you or someone who starts to pull into your path (eg from a side road) and you wish to avoid a collision.

Someone who is simply going slower than you wish does not come under the category of "warning".
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Think that's semantics tbh, to let someone know you're there or to warn them that you're there are pretty much the same thing. Both say "I'm here" and if it isn't regarding some sort of hazard then why would you bother?
 
jacob12_1993 said:
This could be your issue, why the hell are you beeping them? Would you come up behind a car and beep it? No, because that would suggest you had a problem with it. Coming up behind a group of cyclists and beeping is going to say 'get out of the way' rather than 'I'm here' hence the reaction
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TriggerHappy said:
I have to agree with this. I appreciate you're trying to being courteous, and I'm sorry that riders aren't reciprocating that, but tooting the horn (even politely) when you're behind probably doesn't endear you to the riders. Do you do the same behind a horse? I assume not because it would startle the horse. Well the same is true to a lesser extent for a cyclist. Particularly on quiet country lanes it's pretty hard not to hear a car approaching from behind so a beep of the horn really shouldn't be necessary.

I've also never heard of anyone being taught to sound their horn in this way.
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Oops. Right here, we seem to have two cyclists displaying a lack of knowledge of the highway code and putting a strangely belligerent, somewhat paranoid spin on their own road use.

As I learnt, and in fact was asked on my driving test when I had to pass a test to be allowed to use the road, sounding the horn means that a vehicle is present.

It is an audible warning usually of approach.
 
Yves Geza said:
Oops. Right here, we seem to have two cyclists displaying a lack of knowledge of the highway code and putting a strangely belligerent, somewhat paranoid spin on their own road use.

As I learnt, and in fact was asked on my driving test when I had to pass a test to be allowed to use the road, sounding the horn means that a vehicle is present.

It is an audible warning usually of approach.
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I don't think anyone is putting any sort of spin on anything. I think we all know what the HW code says on the matter but like some have said, a LOT of people use the horn as a sign of annoyment and that's all it gets associated to these days.

I mean go back to the start of this thread where people were calling the cyclist aggressive and/or an idiot for using his horn..
 
Simple question. If I am on my cycle riding forward on the road why would you need to toot me to let me know your there? I don't toot cars or motorcycles or horse riders to let them know I'm there I give them space to move so why would any driver feel the need to be that close to a moving bicycle to need to inform the rider of his presence?
 
pepi1967 said:
Simple question. If I am on my cycle riding forward on the road why would you need to toot me to let me know your there? I don't toot cars or motorcycles or horse riders to let them know I'm there I give them space to move so why would any driver feel the need to be that close to a moving bicycle to need to inform the rider of his presence?
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its because the rider is more vulnerable to be injured. As a driver you want to make sure they know you are there so that they don't cycle across your path etc - if a car does this and you hit them then its usually just metal that gets damaged - but if a cyclist does then it's bones

its about the danger - being on a road as a cyclist is more dangerous because you have less protection - or at least thats the perception - it's probably not the actual case, but in your own mind as a driver it makes sense
 
joescrivens said:
its because the rider is more vulnerable to be injured. As a driver you want to make sure they know you are there so that they don't cycle across your path etc - if a car does this and you hit them then its usually just metal that gets damaged - but if a cyclist does then it's bones

its about the danger - being on a road as a cyclist is more dangerous because you have less protection - or at least thats the perception - it's probably not the actual case, but in your own mind as a driver it makes sense
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A good post and a well put together explanation thanks joe :thumbs:
 
Yves Geza said:
Oops. Right here, we seem to have two cyclists displaying a lack of knowledge of the highway code and putting a strangely belligerent, somewhat paranoid spin on their own road use.

As I learnt, and in fact was asked on my driving test when I had to pass a test to be allowed to use the road, sounding the horn means that a vehicle is present.

It is an audible warning usually of approach.
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I'd love to know how I've come across as belligerent there. I felt I was being particularly polite. :shrug:

Anyway, here's what the highway code says about using the horn:

112
The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively. You MUST NOT use your horn

- while stationary on the road
- when driving in a built-up area between the hours of 11.30 pm and 7.00 am
except when another road user poses a danger.
Law CUR reg 99
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and here's a an extract from https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q406.htm

Q406: When can I use the horn in my car?

A horn should only be used when warning someone of danger, not to indicate your annoyance at a manner of driving.

A horn should not be sounded when stationary on a road at anytime, other than at times of danger due to another vehicle on or near the road.

A horn should not be used on a moving vehicle on a restricted road (basically a road that has street lights and a 30mph limit) between the times of 2330hrs and 0700hrs.
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No lack of knowledge. No paranoid spin. The use of a horn is explicitly used when one needs to warn others of one's presence in certain (dangerous) circumstances. Calmly driving up behind a group of cyclists doesn't pose a danger to the motorist or the cyclist; as such there is no need, and nothing to be warned of.

Semantics? Yes, but that's true of almost all law. The meaning of every word matters.



This is precisely what I was referring to when saying it needs to be cooperative. These discussions always degenerate into an 'us vs them' situation when in fact that's never going to result in any progress. We're all allowed to use the roads and we should all behave in a way that's considerate of other road users.
 
At the end of the day the bottom line is that some people are total arsewits

these people will be equally arse witted whether they are driving a car or riding a bike (or for that matter posting on internet fora)

The vast majority of people are perfectly reasonable by nature, and therefore do not manifest as chuckleheads will pursuing any pursuit

Therefore assuming that every car driver or cyclist is an inconsiderate prat and hazard to other road users is clearly a false one to make - however assuming that no one in one or the other user group is so inclined is equally false.
 
When I was taught to drive by my father, I was told it was best to drive/ride assuming that everyone else on the road was a homicidal maniac out to get you.......how right he was! :D
 
Well I had an unusual experience with a van driver earlier whilst cycling home.
I was aware he was behind me, so pedalled my little legs as fast as I could (wider bit of road in 50m).

The lights went to red so I was in the cycle box and van behind me. When the lights went to green I started riding but pulled to the left and waved him past as I knew I had held him up a little. The van driver passed me and then flashed his hazards as a thank you, to which I waved in acknowledgement.

This was central London. See we can live in harmony.
 
Reidy36 said:
Well I had an unusual experience with a van driver earlier whilst cycling home.
I was aware he was behind me, so pedalled my little legs as fast as I could (wider bit of road in 50m).

The lights went to red so I was in the cycle box and van behind me. When the lights went to green I started riding but pulled to the left and waved him past as I knew I had held him up a little. The van driver passed me and then flashed his hazards as a thank you, to which I waved in acknowledgement.

This was central London. See we can live in harmony.
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Exactly the way 95% of my experiences are :)
 
Reidy36 said:
Well I had an unusual experience with a van driver earlier whilst cycling home.
I was aware he was behind me, so pedalled my little legs as fast as I could (wider bit of road in 50m).

The lights went to red so I was in the cycle box and van behind me. When the lights went to green I started riding but pulled to the left and waved him past as I knew I had held him up a little. The van driver passed me and then flashed his hazards as a thank you, to which I waved in acknowledgement.

This was central London. See we can live in harmony.
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I guess this works if you have a single vehicle behind you, but often if one vehicle overtakes on a narrow section of road (by invitation) this will be a signal for a barrage of following vehicles to also squeeze past rather than wait for a safer place to pass.
 
Reidy36 said:
Well I had an unusual experience with a van driver earlier whilst cycling home.
I was aware he was behind me, so pedalled my little legs as fast as I could (wider bit of road in 50m).

The lights went to red so I was in the cycle box and van behind me. When the lights went to green I started riding but pulled to the left and waved him past as I knew I had held him up a little. The van driver passed me and then flashed his hazards as a thank you, to which I waved in acknowledgement.

This was central London. See we can live in harmony.
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I do show thumb up to drivers that let me cycle in front of them when there is a 'obstruction' in my way.

If I would be a driver in that situation, I would be proud that someone thanked me :)
 
Organnyx said:
Beautifully put - we WERE taught the polite toot as part of safe driving. There is never any need to toot a horserider - they are unfailingly totally aware of all other road users, and always acknowledge your slowing down/stopping/waiting for them - why the hell can't bicyclists do the same?
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I don't toot horses - at the best of times they're highly unstable and flying hooves cause a lot of damage if they connect! There are plenty of times round here that a toot would be well in order though - 2 abreast, often on the pavement (a whole different problem they cause), unlit in darkness (not talking twilight, talking full dark on a black horse while wearing black togs), red rag round tail (yes, I know what that means - "I'm even less stable than most so likely to be a real handfull and out of control"...) etc.

As for slow cyclists, well, they're an unfortunate fact of life - I suppose I'm lucky in that a) I'm rarely in much of a rush (apart from anything else, I always try to leave enough time to be well early rather than pressed for time!) and b) my car is a very nice place to be, even stuck behind something travelling slowly. My biggest gripe is the other way! We live at the top of a long, steep hill with traffic lights about 3/4 of the way down. Purely using gravity, I can hit 40mph on a push bike and those that "pedal furiously" (which is the technical offence IIRC!) can get correspodingly greater speeds up. Bear in mind that there are numerous blind drives exiting onto this road and that many of the householders are not as young and able as they used to be. Even in a car, I get plenty of people pulling out on me - even when I used to drive a Series Landy (those who know will know just how poor braking is in one of these!)... Those "furious pedallers" frequently don't stop at the red lights, sailing straight across them at full speed, straight into a 20 limit. I've been stopped at the lights, indicating right, only to be passed by some tw@ flat out on his bike. Lucky for them (it's not an isolated incident) I do stop at lights and always actually check over my shoulder before pulling away (old biking habits die hard).
 
Just watched the video and sadly I see no reason why some random geezer in a van should want to get out and lamp a cyclist whatever the reason. It's just a shame he wasn't done for assault, I'd be pretty ****ed off if someone jumped out of his van and had a go at me and plod told me their hands were tied and couldn't do much about it.

Whether you are pro-cyclist or not, at the end of the day it's simple enough to give them a bit of room and be patient for a few seconds/minutes. You're driving a potential killing machine, they have very little protection whatsoever.

I'm afraid as with everything in life, there are half wits everywhere - in cars, on bikes, on horses and as this video shows in vans too!
 
" The use of a horn is explicitly used when one needs to warn others of one's presence in certain (dangerous) circumstances. Calmly driving up behind a group of cyclists doesn't pose a danger to the motorist or the cyclist; as such there is no need, and nothing to be warned of" - in a word - cobblers! A cyclist unaware of the presence of a car IS in a dangerous situation

As I have experienced many times,out here in the sticks, you can often drive up behind a gaggle of cyclists on the road ahead, and they are completely unaware of your presence - I have in mind a long straight near here, they will often be occupying the entire width of the road - it is not unreasonable for a car driver to want to pass them (safely), so it is entirely reasonable use of the horn to give a polite "toot" to say "wakey wakey, there's a car here which would like to overtake" - they should know you're there, many don't, because they have no mirrors, and never look round....... Rather than the usual; reaction (unbridled fury), they should be grateful you've reminded them of the presence of a potentially dangerous vehicle, and that you've roused them from their reverie.

On the subject of mirrors - cars have to have them, as do motor cycles -when I used to cycle to school, I had (and used) them - why on earth have they been jettisoned by most bicyclists? (along with mudguards)

I'll stick with what I was taught - if there's a cyclist (or pedestrian) on, or about to enter the road you're driving on, who isn't visibly aware of your presence, it is in everybody's interest to "toot" - and is arguably more for them than you - I'm sitting coccooned with crumple zones and airbags, they aren't...........
 
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Organnyx said:
" ...

On the subject of mirrors - cars have to have them, as do motor cycles -when I used to cycle to school, I had (and used) them - why on earth have they been jettisoned by most bicyclists? (along with mudguards)....
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I did use a mirror (called a "mirrycle") many years ago but it did not give a very good view compared with checking over your shoulder, so I did not use it for long. Also as a cyclist you will be constantly changing position, down on the bar drops and then more upright on the brake hoods or bar tops, so the mirror will not be in the best position for all riding positions. They also add weight and wind resistance and when you have spent £££ on carbon compoents to shave off a few grams you are not going to want to add too many extra things which will add more weight.
 
Always makes me laugh when people spend a small fortune shaving off a few grammes - shave all your hair off - that'll save a few, as will clipping all your nails short. Do what Mercedes did in the '50s and strip all the paint off your frame (that's what MB had to do to gey yheir GP cars under the weight limit, hence them being the "Silver Arrows"). Don't even consider using drilled Titanium bolts - if the core gets anything in it, chances are that the crud will be heavier than the Ti that's been drilled out!

A well designed mirror won't add much in the way of wind resistance - certainly when compared to the slab of meat sat atop the bike!
 
Precisely - nowadays cars are a lot heavier, thanks in no small part to the safety requirements - if you're going to use the public roads, they're not raceways where you need stripped out, bare bones racers (of any type of vehicle), and you should accord all road users consideration.... I really can't understand the wilful neglect of their own safety by many cyclists who remain blissfully unaware of much around them, instead relying on their own misplaced feeling of superiority, and the infallibility of the protection conferred by mickey mouse helmets and lycra............ I've used the roads long enough to realise how damned dangerous they can be, I'm very aware of everything on the road, including what's behind me (and these days I'm in a pretty bomb-proof Volvo).

WHY no mudguards? - like mirrors, I'd say they're essential - it's the UK, it rains (with monotonous regularity), and can only view the lack of them as further proof of the innate lunacy of many bicyclists, who are so keen to look "cool" they miss the fact that a constant spray from the tyres is damned uncomfortable, and potentially another distraction from safe riding (along with the Ipod earpieces often spotted in their ears......)
 
Organnyx said:
Precisely - nowadays cars are a lot heavier, thanks in no small part to the safety requirements - if you're going to use the public roads, they're not raceways where you need stripped out, bare bones racers (of any type of vehicle), and you should accord all road users consideration.... I really can't understand the wilful neglect of their own safety by many cyclists who remain blissfully unaware of much around them, instead relying on their own misplaced feeling of superiority, and the infallibility of the protection conferred by mickey mouse helmets and lycra............ I've used the roads long enough to realise how damned dangerous they can be, I'm very aware of everything on the road, including what's behind me (and these days I'm in a pretty bomb-proof Volvo).

WHY no mudguards? - like mirrors, I'd say they're essential - it's the UK, it rains (with monotonous regularity), and can only view the lack of them as further proof of the innate lunacy of many bicyclists, who are so keen to look "cool" they miss the fact that a constant spray from the tyres is damned uncomfortable, and potentially another distraction from safe riding (along with the Ipod earpieces often spotted in their ears......)
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:lol: and someone had the audacity to label me as belligerent earlier!

I don't understand your point about mudguards. How are they a safety issue?

It's pretty clear your mind is made up anyway:
All horse riders = perfect
Your driving = perfect
All cyclists = dangerous, unaware & inconsiderate

That's a pretty extreme stance you seem to have taken. At least most cyclists here seem to be moderate in that they acknowledge failings from some road users of all types.
 
Well a day later and all change, had some moron toot his horn at me and 5 seconds later road was clear (I could see it, why couldn't he).
Cyclists with music on, absolute muppets. You need all your senses just to stay safe, yet they insist on blocking out any chance they have of hearing what is going on around them.
I do also see it from the drivers side and when possible I will pull over a little to let them go past when traffic is static, unless I am close to a junction I want to turn into, then I will hog the kerb so there is no chance of a bike coming past and me hitting it.
 
Reidy36 said:
Well a day later and all change, had some moron toot his horn at me and 5 seconds later road was clear (I could see it, why couldn't he).
Cyclists with music on, absolute muppets. You need all your senses just to stay safe, yet they insist on blocking out any chance they have of hearing what is going on around them.
I do also see it from the drivers side and when possible I will pull over a little to let them go past when traffic is static, unless I am close to a junction I want to turn into, then I will hog the kerb so there is no chance of a bike coming past and me hitting it.
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To be fair, if you cycle at any reasonable speed, you can barely hear anything from the wind anyway. Headphones make little difference in my experience.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
To be fair, if you cycle at any reasonable speed, you can barely hear anything from the wind anyway. Headphones make little difference in my experience.
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I certainly agree it's unsafe to cycle with headphones in and music playing. That's something I have never and will never do.

It's interesting to note that wearing some type of headphones (not noise cancelling ones obviously) without music playing actually can improve hearing by reducing wind noise.

There's other solutions like these, which reduce the amount of wind noise as well: http://www.slipstreamz.com/content.asp?subID=9

You must be a faster cyclist than I am! I have no problem hearing a car approaching from some distance behind me, but I do tend to ride on quiet country roads and it's unusual to meet more than about 6 cars in 2 hours out.
 
TriggerHappy said:
I certainly agree it's unsafe to cycle with headphones in and music playing. That's something I have never and will never do.

It's interesting to note that wearing some type of headphones (not noise cancelling ones obviously) without music playing actually can improve hearing by reducing wind noise.

There's other solutions like these, which reduce the amount of wind noise as well: http://www.slipstreamz.com/content.asp?subID=9

You must be a faster cyclist than I am! I have no problem hearing a car approaching from some distance behind me, but I do tend to ride on quiet country roads and it's unusual to meet more than about 6 cars in 2 hours out.
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I sometimes listen to music on the commute, but never loud enough that I can't hear a car approach.

Although, to be fair, I'm not sure what advantage of being able to hear a car behind me gives me. If I'm cycling along, keeping to the left for the most part (not when turning right, or navigating a roundabout obviously!) and following the rules of the road, if I hear a car behind me, I just ignore it as it's just going to go past me.

If someone was going to drive into the back of me, I'm not sure what I could do about it if I heard them first or not! :)
 
Some odd points coming up in this thread..

Cyclists don't need mirrors, we have this great invention called a "neck" that can be turned and unlike cars we don't have a blind spot that mirrors can help with.

Mudguards are a purely personal point. I've had some on my mountain bike before and I end up breaking the damn things. A bit of water up my back is the least of my worries when I'm already covered in mud.

Headphones I agree with, I wear them off road and only ever wear a near side one if at all on the road.
 
I see there was a pretty accurate summation, not least "All cyclists = dangerous, unaware & inconsiderate", which needs a little qualification - not ALL cyclists....usually the "locals" are fine, the mums and dads with their kids, the neighbours who regularly use a bike to get around the lanes are aware of their vulnerability, and are for the most part considerate to other road users - unlike what I'll call the "budding Bradley Wiggins townies" who are usually only spotted at weekends cluttering up the country lanes - heads down, lycra-clad arses in the air, brains off on planet smug, totally oblivious to all about them, secure in the immortality conferred by their innate superiority, lack of mudguards and mirrors, and total inability (or need) to look over their shoulders...........:D
I live in a narrow "passing place" lane that is much used by horse riders, very often it is prudent and polite to sit and wait in one of the passing spots while they plod their leisurely way up or down the lane, steam gives way to sail, so that's fine and acceptable - they'll always give a cheery wave and a "thankyou", AND know you're there....... Very rarely you will get the odd one who won't acknowledge your slowing down/waiting - us country bumpkins tend to wind down the window, and yell "thankyou" very loudly (my daughter, who is a horse rider herself is hottest on that, and is reduced to spluttering rage at "rude" riders) - if only the bicycling community were as hot on "manners".......
 
Now things make sense. You're a motorist, so all motorists are flawless. Your daughter is a horse rider, so obviously all horse riders are perfect. I suspect you probably aren't close with any enthusiastic cyclists to restore a little parity to your opinions.

Can you not see how prejudiced your viewpoint is?

You've also failed to tell me how mudguards are a safety issue.
 
I'm just writing from bitter experience, and speaking as I find - down the years I have been a pedestrian, cyclist, motor cyclist, horserider and motorist (in many differing types of vehicles) - I've "got the t-shirt" of vulnerability experienced when not surrounded by acres of bendy metal, and am frankly amazed at the cavalier attitude, and inability to maintain proper observation of the road and it's users of many cyclists nowadays - I grew up in a family of keen cyclists (some of whom formed the local cycling club), and knowing the way they taught me to ride and treat other road users, they'd be horrified at the arrogance and "attitude" displayed by many cyclists these days...........
I like to think I'm a safe and considerate road user, all I ask is that everyone else on the road behave the same way...

I note that I'm patronisingly commanded to qualify "why?" no mudguards are a daft idea - they are a means of keeping the spray off you, your bike and other road users - we aren't allowed on the road on a motor bike or in a car without them, how come push bikes are a "special case?". Way back in the dark ages, no road bike was without them - the rain is still as wet, so I'm stuffed if I can see the logic of doing without them
 
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Organnyx said:
I note that I'm patronisingly commanded to qualify "why?" no mudguards are a daft idea - they are a means of keeping the spray off you, your bike and other road users - we aren't allowed on the road on a motor bike or in a car without them, how come push bikes are a "special case?". Way back in the dark ages, no road bike was without them - the rain is still as wet, so I'm stuffed if I can see the logic of doing without them
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car and motorbikes generate MUCH more spray and would cause a visibility hazard.
 
Organnyx said:
I'm just writing from bitter experience, and speaking as I find - down the years I have been a pedestrian, cyclist, motor cyclist, horserider and motorist (in many differing types of vehicles) - I've "got the t-shirt" of vulnerability experienced when not surrounded by acres of bendy metal, and am frankly amazed at the cavalier attitude, and inability to maintain proper observation of the road and it's users of many cyclists nowadays - I grew up in a family of keen cyclists (some of whom formed the local cycling club), and knowing the way they taught me to ride and treat other road users, they'd be horrified at the arrogance and "attitude" displayed by many cyclists these days...........
I like to think I'm a safe and considerate road user, all I ask is that everyone else on the road behave the same way...

I note that I'm patronisingly commanded to qualify "why?" no mudguards are a daft idea - they are a means of keeping the spray off you, your bike and other road users - we aren't allowed on the road on a motor bike or in a car without them, how come push bikes are a "special case?". Way back in the dark ages, no road bike was without them - the rain is still as wet, so I'm stuffed if I can see the logic of doing without them
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The question, Martin, might be to ask why literally dozens of pedal cyclists have died in London in the past couple of years under the wheels of heavy goods vehicles, while to the best of my knowledge not one single motorcyclist has suffered. Someone else might want to research the precise numbers.

I don't think it is that the motorcyclists can accelerate away; I suspect it is that they didn't get themselves into the most dangerous positions to start with and incidentally, I have great respect for the skills of most truck drivers whom I observe manoeuvring carefully and capably around other traffic.
 
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