And the floodgates will open

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ST4 said:
The victims should hire some heavies to get a more forthcoming redress methinks....
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Great idea! Let's have lots of violence! Are you going in first? What will you be armed with? Guns? Knives? Baseball bat?

Are you prepared to accept the consequences if it proves to be a young mum who bought the van in good faith? Do you have any idea at all what 'rule of law' means?
 
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So the victims that have had their caravan stolen have rights to get it back, if thats the case why are they still sitting with an empty driveway with no caravan in it even though its been found and someone is living in it.

But the people who have it and are living in it have every right to sit pretty in a stolen caravan, as has been said its against their human rights to chuck them out.

seems to me you have a bee in your bonnet about what is right and wrong.
 
jon ryan said:
Don't be ridiculous. Of course they have rights. In this country, everyone is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. That is the very bedrock of democracy. Even people from minority groups have rights, you know. Wars have been fought to defend that particular aspect of civilization.

If you have some germane proof, I suggest you send it to the relevant authority. I'm sure they'll be delighted to hear from you.
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So if you bought a car that turned out to be stolen, what rights do you think you will have, none the vehicle will be removed and returned to the insurance company that would have paid out a claim on it. You would be left with nothing. The case of the caravan should be no different, it should be returned to the rightful owners, not allow those living in it to keep it because just they would be homeless, they have no rights to it plain and simple.
 
I can't help wondering whether this is all about political correctness and fear of being accused of oppressing a minority, racism etc... (or, to put it another way, a lack of balls.)

S.8 of the HRA does give some protection, but that protection can be (and frequently is) set aside when it's considered to be in the public interest to do so. "Independent" Planning Inspectors do it all the time...

Assuming here that it really has been established that it was stolen in the first place, and that the present occupants of it don't have legal title (didn't buy it at a public auction in good faith)...
What if the police had simply arrested the adults on suspicion of handling, or something similar, leaving the children in need of care. And then take the children into care, meaning that the caravan was no longer occupied and no longer someone's home.

So, caravan get removed to the police pound, partly because it's evidence and partly to protect it from vandalism/further theft, and the true owners simply turn up at the pound, prove their ownership and collect it.

On release from custody the family could be housed in emergency accommodation, which is an unsatisfactory situation but one that's forced on a lot of totally innocent people who are homeless through no fault of their own.

But, that solution would require a determination to help the innocent and punish the guilty.
 
SpikeK6 said:
So the victims that have had their caravan stolen have rights to get it back, if thats the case why are they still sitting with an empty driveway with no caravan in it even though its been found and someone is living in it.

But the people who have it and are living in it have every right to sit pretty in a stolen caravan, as has been said its against their human rights to chuck them out.

seems to me you have a bee in your bonnet about what is right and wrong.
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Can you link to the proof that the people who stole it are 'sitting pretty' in it, please. Thanks.


Does it occur to you that perhaps the investigation may take a while? Are you going to get tooled up with ST4, chuck them out, and ask questions afterwards? Is that the sort of 'justice' you'd like to see in this country; where a couple of keyboard warriors armed with nothing more than a story from a tabloid newspaper and baseball bats can make up their minds what the wrongs and rights are, and act on them at whim?
 
Ok I ahve never once said chuck the family out on the street there are ways to deal with that like you said Garry, but what i cannot understand is from reading on here the family that bought the caravan for a "bargain" price which did not reflect current prices are getting more support than the poor people that worked hard saved up then on retirement bought a caravan that they where hoping to enjoy the use of for many years.

That to me is the hard bit to swallow, that someone who has something that does not belong to them legaly has more rights than the owners that bought it in the first place!!
 
jon ryan said:
Can you link to the proof that the people who stole it are 'sitting pretty' in it, please. Thanks.


Does it occur to you that perhaps the investigation may take a while?
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I think the fact that they can't be evicted from the caravan and the caravan returned to it's rightful owners is all the proof needed that the current occupants are "sitting pretty".
What investigation? The caravan was reported stolen 18 months ago and has now been found. What's to investigate?
 
SpikeK6 said:
Ok I ahve never once said chuck the family out on the street there are ways to deal with that like you said Garry, but what i cannot understand is from reading on here the family that bought the caravan for a "bargain" price which did not reflect current prices are getting more support than the poor people that worked hard saved up then on retirement bought a caravan that they where hoping to enjoy the use of for many years.

That to me is the hard bit to swallow, that someone who has something that does not belong to them legaly has more rights than the owners that bought it in the first place!!
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nilagin said:
I think the fact that they can't be evicted from the caravan and the caravan returned to it's rightful owners is all the proof needed that the current occupants are "sitting pretty".
What investigation? The caravan was reported stolen 18 months ago and has now been found. What's to investigate?
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You two are basing all your frothing on a tabloid story?

Wow! They're certainly got you, haven't they...
 
jon ryan said:
Can you link to the proof that the people who stole it are 'sitting pretty' in it, please. Thanks.


Does it occur to you that perhaps the investigation may take a while? Are you going to get tooled up with ST4, chuck them out, and ask questions afterwards? Is that the sort of 'justice' you'd like to see in this country; where a couple of keyboard warriors armed with nothing more than a story from a tabloid newspaper and baseball bats can make up their minds what the wrongs and rights are, and act on them at whim?
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For one I am not a keyboard warrior. and two no i am not going to get "tooled"up.

No where have I said in this thread that the people are sitting pretty, you seem to be doing that all on your own as they have rights too according to you.
I have always said that we can only go off what has been stated in the press. they have spoke to the family that had it stolen, they have spoke to the people living in caravan that told them they bought it down the pub and the press reported it.
Whilst I agree we do not beleive everything we read, and i said that at the very begining of this thread or did you just choose to miss that bit out when slinging accusations around about getting tooled up and go looking for justice.

The police obviously cannot for whatever reason sling the family out and give it back to the rightful owners but that still does not make it right.
 
SpikeK6 said:
I think you need to step away from the keyboard before you say something you did not mean.
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ummm <checks> nope, haven't said a single thing I don't mean.

Do you think everyone has rights, and that cases should be properly investigated before action is taken?
 
jon ryan said:
Do you think everyone has rights, and that cases should be properly investigated before action is taken?
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Again, what's to investigate? It was stolen, it's been found, it should now be returned to it's rightful owners, buyers of stolen goods should have no rights, let them take it up with who ever sold it on, if they can find them.
 
its been investigated, the couple have been told that they need to take court action to get it back.

So everyone has rights where are theirs to get the caravan back that is theirs??
 
Well, perhaps - and this may sound a little weird to you people who seem to have all the facts - perhaps they may have to prove they hold good title to the van? Maybe that's all they have to go to court for? I've asked you a few times for a link to all this information you seem to have that isn't in any of the newspaper reports. Could you provide the link, please, that explains how the full investigation went.

Or could it possibly be that just perhaps one or two points of law are still to be determined here? I know it may be a hard concept to grasp, but perhaps the newspapers haven't reported the whole story? Frightening thought, isn't it?

Edit to add; just to show there are numerous ways of interpreting any given story:

officers can't prove the family living inside knew it was stolen when they bought it.

And that means that they are powerless to reclaim it.

The owners of a stolen caravan say they are devastated.

A Hampshire police spokesman said: "Officers attended the site of the caravan for an unrelated offence in September 2012, and while there, checks indicated the caravan was stolen.

A 22-year-old man from Hook was arrested and interviewed on suspicion of theft, however there was insufficient evidence to prove he had been involved in the theft, or would have known the caravan was stolen when he bought it.

He was released with no further action.
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http://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/loca...ire-police-powerless-to-seize-stolen-caravan/

...of course, you may prefer to live in a state where people can just wade in and do whatever they want and ignore the due process of law. What if the 22 year old was you? Or your son? Would you want the police to be able to bang him up on whim?

If you have facts that are germane, please send them to the relevant authorities. I'm sure they'll be delighted to hear from you.
 
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Been for a walk, 60ft canal barge for sale with all modern amenities, currently living in it so can deliver to a canal near you. Enquire within.

ALSO

Taking orders for new / nearly new caravans, I found a caravan workshop / dealer on my way to the canal. Reasonable prices, more reasonable than you might imagine.

May be branching out to motor homes, so I'm accepting initial enquiries. Ill confirm whether I'm branching out to this aspect of the business once I've had a chance to drive around some of the more up market estates tonight.
 
Nah. Thanks, but some Sun readers have told me that I can just go and pick up any caravan I want and the police won't do anything about it. Must be true if it was in the Sun.
 
Ill bring the caravan to you, you don't even need to leave your home. That's service for you.
 
Great! Can you grass up some travellers as well? Make sure they get the blame for it. Wouldn't do to have anyone think that decent people are capable of crime, would it?
 
Ill just say I bought it from them, should be simple enough
 
jon ryan said:
...of course, you may prefer to live in a state where people can just wade in and do whatever they want and ignore the due process of law. What if the 22 year old was you? Or your son? Would you want the police to be able to bang him up on whim?

If you have facts that are germane, please send them to the relevant authorities. I'm sure they'll be delighted to hear from you.
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You are still ignoring the fact that a stolen item is still the property of the original owner, regardless of whether someone else has bought said item in good faith, the new "owner" has no rights to it. The police don't have to "bang them up" unless they can prove he acquired it illegally, but that still shouldn't give that person the right to continue living in it.
The due process of the law has been followed, the caravan was reported stolen, the caravan has been found. The caravan should now be allowed to be recovered to it's rightful owners, the people it was stolen from in the first place.
 
jon ryan said:
Great! Can you grass up some travellers as well? Make sure they get the blame for it. Wouldn't do to have anyone think that decent people are capable of crime, would it?
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The site it was found on is a travellers site. :cuckoo:
 
nilagin said:
The site it was found on is a travellers site. :cuckoo:
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COUNCIL: ...and the van was found on a traveller site, M'lud!

JUDGE: TRAVELLERS? Guilty! Must be guilty! Where's my black cap! The evidence before the court is incontrovertible, there's no need for the jury to retire!
In all my years of judging, I have never heard before someone more deserving of the full penalty of law!
 
It's not about guilt, it's about right of ownership and those currently living in it, don't have it.
 
Nope, it's about proof of ownership. Ownership isn't a right.
 
Of course ownership is a right. The couple that bought it for £20k are the rightful owners, not the people who bought it for £300 after it was stolen, as I said before they should have no rights to the property, if they it pay the full price to the original owners.
 
jon ryan said:
Can you link to the proof that the people who stole it are 'sitting pretty' in it, please. Thanks.


Does it occur to you that perhaps the investigation may take a while? Are you going to get tooled up with ST4, chuck them out, and ask questions afterwards? Is that the sort of 'justice' you'd like to see in this country; where a couple of keyboard warriors armed with nothing more than a story from a tabloid newspaper and baseball bats can make up their minds what the wrongs and rights are, and act on them at whim?
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Can you please explain how if someone's stolen something, and the rightful owner is being withheld and obstructed by our balshy legal system from getting it back, that the theives or the people who procured the caravan from theives are not sitting pretty?

It was reported that it was stolen, the police find a "gypsie" family in it and the owners are not gypsies. Its therefore being used by gypsies who do not own it.

What about the poor people it was pinched from, what about their rights, or do theives and scum matter more to the legal system than victims of crime.

Whether or not it can be proved that the occupier of the caravan stole it is another matter, but its provable its not theirs and it is the people in the article.

Do you think the sun would print that for the fun of it, or perhaps, just maybe, theres some truth in it.
 
There is something odd. Why aren't the police applying the actual law on stolen goods? Knowing whether it is or not avoids you being prosecuted not handing back the goods in question....if something is stolen then you have 0 rights to it and you have to get your money back from the person that sold it you. If it was stolen before then they had no rights to sell it either so they have to chase the person they bought it from if they bought it and face prison if they stole it. That's how it works. Goods remain stolen until the original owner says 'ok you can keep it' or the insurance company (if it were insured) sells it after paying out to original owner. There is no other middle ground.

There is some massively important missing information in this. I bet the human rights twaddle is just some rubbish the paper has made up. The real reason will be something less newsworthy.
 
Indeed.

How do we know that the original owners didn't run short of cash, found some dodgy geezer down the pub to 'steal' it, fit up some innocent third party, then claim the insurance and are now trying to get it back having discovered they weren't insured? This was meant to be on a secure site, it says here. What happened there? Perhaps they didn't pay the storage and the storage owner sold it. Why aren't they suing him for failing to keep it safe? Perhaps they have a drug-addicted daughter who sold it to pay off her dealer. Maybe aliens abducted it and put in back in the wrong place.

etc, etc.
 
So you'd rather base all your opinions on warped ideas floating around in your head, than what has actually been reported by several newspapers.:cuckoo::shrug:
 
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.c...-and-travellers-in-article-re-stolen-caravan/

I think the above is a decent summary of the actual situation.

Looks like the law on stolen property isn't actually as clear cut as I had thought. If you can prove you bought something in good faith then it is possible the original owner can lose out...

Also if something is bought on HP then you aren't the legal owner anyway. You can also legally stop HP payments half way through a contract and hand the item back... could they just not leave the HP company to basically repossess it?
 
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nilagin said:
So you'd rather base all your opinions on warped ideas floating around in your head, than what has actually been reported by several newspapers.:cuckoo::shrug:
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You believe - actually believe - what they print in the Sun?

Wow!
 
nilagin said:
So you'd rather base all your opinions on warped ideas floating around in your head, than what has actually been reported by several newspapers.:cuckoo::shrug:
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To be fair, that's precisely what some journalists do. Only they have the platform to share and 'legitimise' their warped ideas in black and white, and have other uncritical minded individuals take it at face value and believe everything they read, exactly the way they've read it.

I'm not suggesting that's what been done here, just that it wouldn't be the first time.
 
I once bought a stolen motorcycle, when the police turned up at my house they asked how much I'd paid for it and then took it away for the lad who it had been stolen from to see if it was his (turns out it was).

As I'd paid fair market value I wasn't charged with receiving stolen goods goods and they sort of looked into finding the person who had sold it to me without any luck. I was out of pocket a couple of hundred quid.

I was told that if the motorcycle had been worth a couple of grand and I'd only paid a couple of hundred quid I would be charged (I don't know what with though)

So how come the original purchasers of the caravan can't get it back and the buyers charged with whatever I was going to be charged with?

Why are they paying hp on it, if they default it is up to the finance company to recover the caravan and for the defaulters to make up any shortfall surely?
 
srichards said:
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.c...-and-travellers-in-article-re-stolen-caravan/

I think the above is a decent summary of the actual situation.

Looks like the law on stolen property isn't actually as clear cut as I had thought. If you can prove you bought something in good faith then it is possible the original owner can lose out...
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If that's the case, then why is it that people, who have unwittingly bought stolen cars, have been left with nothing. I've never heard of anyone being allowed to keep the car, just because they bought it in good faith.
 
jon ryan said:
You believe - actually believe - what they print in the Sun?

Wow!
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I didn't read it in The Sun, but what I have read on other newspapers sites sounds a lot more plausible than the twaddle you keep spouting.
 
Having derived the bulk of my income for the last twenty years from newspaper work, I have come to understand that 'truth' is quite a slippery concept!

Showing that you have 'good title' to a disputed item is a notoriously complicated area of law, and if no criminal involvement can be proved - as appears to be the case here - the matter is civil and the police would not be involved.
 
Showing you have good title to a caravan is a pretty simple matter, like cars they are registered.
 
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