An observation (discussion)

Not quite the shadow still comes downwards...
I spoke in the general , like I said else where, rules when understood can be broken for a reason... that keylight is still above subject and the loop shadow is still falling within the smile crease...
 
But the light isn't so far round that the rest of the nose shadow falls onto the cheek, which is what my original post was about, the double nose syndrome...

that MM image has a slight loop pattern or could be argued an offset butterfly... it's still obviously a high light position...hence the carving on the cheeks...
nothing wrong with that but that is not flat lighting...
 
GDHphotography said:
...and when the keylight is on axis it results in totally flat facial light with no sculptural capability at all...
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The light in Fred Greissing's portrait (the MM shot) doesnt look too far off camera axis to me...?
 
And butterfly lighting IS on camera axis (providing the subjects facing the camera), directly above camera in fact. I don't get your point at all.
 
Originally Posted by GDHphotography
...and when the keylight is on axis it results in totally flat facial light with no sculptural capability at all...
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Surely not - it can be on axis but still sculpture beautifully - it depends on the height and relative angle...

But we're arguing subjectively. This thread is really about the standard of teaching and about the limited opportunities that people have of learning from people who can actually help them isn't it?
 
It was on subject for me, disagreeing with a trainer providing information that I didn't comprehend or agree with. Seems ironic in a way that the thread is about training standards.

Truth is photography's highly subjective, personal taste and aesthetic goes beyond what formal teaching can offer. The best course to encourage photographic talent is art. I hate traditional portrait lighting, hate rules of composition, can't stand all that. The only course people need is technical knowledge, how to shoot manually, and not to electrocute yourself while using lights. Other than that, if they have a genuine love of photography, they'll shoot regularly, grow, evolve, and develop their own style.
 
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With regard to teaching, I'd have thought now more than ever the need for teaching is diminishing, with instantly viewable results from simply experimenting.
Just playing with lights, continually changing set ups, you'll learn far more. That's how I learnt, doing just that, except I had to develop the film first to see the results. No internet and endless tutorials just Michael Freemans Studio Manual. :)

There seems to be an increasing myth in photography at the moment, especially in the social networks and magazines like Pro Photo, who continually advise budding and even working photographers, that they need to go on a course of some description to "hone their skills". If it's business studies, then maybe, but otherwise just get out there and play, you can see straight away what works and doesn't, it's not rocket science :shrug:

Too many photographers realising the bottom is dropping out of their particular market and, quite rightly so, are looking to diversify. Trouble is just because you may be good at something, doesn't for one second mean you know how to convey that information to others who don't. I speak from experience having spent 5 years teaching colour printing at Brighton Poly (as it was all those years ago!)
 
treeman said:
With regard to teaching, I'd have thought now more than ever the need for teaching is diminishing, with instantly viewable results from simply experimenting.
Just playing with lights, continually changing set ups, you'll learn far more. That's how I learnt, doing just that, except I had to develop the film first to see the results. No internet and endless tutorials just Michael Freemans Studio Manual. :)

There seems to be an increasing myth in photography at the moment, especially in the social networks and magazines like Pro Photo, who continually advise budding and even working photographers, that they need to go on a course of some description to "hone their skills". If it's business studies, then maybe, but otherwise just get out there and play, you can see straight away what works and doesn't, it's not rocket science :shrug:

Too many photographers realising the bottom is dropping out of their particular market and, quite rightly so, are looking to diversify. Trouble is just because you may be good at something, doesn't for one second mean you know how to convey that information to others who don't. I speak from experience having spent 5 years teaching colour printing at Brighton Poly (as it was all those years ago!)
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I understand what you're saying and I don't entirely disagree with you. Experimenting is probably the single best form of learning there is - but it's surely better to learn from other people's mistakes than to learn from your own...

For example, if you have never driven a car in a city in your life (but let's assume that you know exactly how to drive it around a track) - wouldn't it be better if someone was to tell you that you need to drive on the left, stop at amber/red traffic lights and to expect unexpected things to happen, rather than find that out the hard way?

OK, a silly example because cars are all around us and even people who have never driven in their life should be capable of recognising bad driving when they see it - but transfer that to lighting.

Even if you go on a degree course you'll probably learn nothing useful about lighting - it's a bit too technical for most art tutors. I've had people in my studio who've managed to get a degree without ever seeing the inside of the studio at the uni.

So where else can you learn even the basics so that you can start to experiment?
The answer is that you can't, in the sense that, unlike driving, you won't actually be exposed to lighting. And you're not likely to get a job as lighting slave, trainee or assistant either, these jobs are hard to come by.

Which leaves you with all the free mis-information that we see all the time on the web in the form of tutorials, videos, forums. And maybe a very old book or two in the library, and some of the photography magazine articles, who people who know nothing try to teach other people...

Oh of course some of the lighting sellers give away 'how to' DVD's, I saw one that told people to set the white balance to auto:)

But perhaps you're right. If you close your mind to all the junk and just experiment, with no preconceptions, you might be able to manage - as long as you have a basic understanding of the physics of light.
 
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