We would have control over taxation, employment, immigration, exports, and industrial policy. Scotland isn't wanting to leave the EU, we find it beneficial, it is wanting to leave the rest of the UK.
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An Independent Scotland?
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We would have control over taxation, employment, immigration, exports, and industrial policy. Scotland isn't wanting to leave the EU, we find it beneficial, it is wanting to leave the rest of the UK.
Bernie174
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Hugh, there's only 220 ish countries on the planet! Are you seriously suggesting 100 years ago there were 20?
It's not the same punt in any case. In this case. The majority of Countries that have been part of another, like Belgium, although that was part of 2 Countries, or part of an Empire then they have gone to 100% responsible for their own affairs. What they haven't done in the main is immediately demand to become subservient to another state, which is the aspiration of the EU, to be its own superstate.
And at least one country has rejoined asked to rejoin its former state, East Germany.
So, yes, it's difficult to see how you differentiate between Europe and the UK. In the UK, irrespective of what you think, you have 25% of the voice. The last PM of the UK was a Scot, who's party you did vote for, I also got the same, but I didn't vote for his party, and never would.
Ok, you didn't vote for Cameron, and I don't blame you, nor did I, but then over 75% of Scots didn't vote for the SNP either. In fact, they only got in because there is a general apathy for the current crop of politicians and turn outs for elections has been very low for the past 4 years.
Do you think you will get any more of a Government you want every time in Europe?
In reality, I don't see Scotland being hard done by in the current arrangements. You get more investment than most of the rest of the UK, are subsidised by the rest of us. You get the protection of a large foreign service while abroad and you've had the defence umbrella that's kept you from being occupied. While I am not saying you are all take and no give, and that Scotland doesn't contribute to the Uk as a whole, it's a lot disingenuous for you to claim you are getting the poo end of the stick.
In Europe you have considerably less influence, no more than Ireland or Cyprus. So in effect, less say than you have now. You will simply be beholden to Berlin and Paris, for whom the EU is really run.
wooky
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Found this on a blog and I think it kind of sums things up.
I’ve had enough. I know it’s democracy and we should be hugely grateful we live in a country that can make this decision without firing a bullet, but enough is enough.
The Scotland we know and love is gone. The UK as we knew it has gone too. What could and should have been a positive and wide discussion about the future of our country (and you can see that as both Scotland and the UK) has instead turned into a pathetic tit-for-tat spat. Over the weekend one poll put the Yes vote ahead by two points if the undecideds were not included. I would point out that if you check all the other polls not one of them agreed with that assessment. But then that’s not news. I’ve had enough of it:
Enough of lies: Why are we at all surprised that politicians are lying to us from all sides on the issues involved? Did you really think that they would finally behave themselves during this campaign? If you did, you deserve what you get when it all goes tits up.
Enough of the bickering: Semantics are easily played with and that’s what has been batted around for the last two and a half years. The slightest contradiction is blown up beyond all sanity for the sake of a soundbite or headline.
Enough of the bitterness: This is what we’ll be left with on the 19th – a divided and bitter country who will look at the other side with anger regardless of the outcome. Politicians against politicians, friends against friends, family members against family members – and for what? Do we really want a country that only just believes in the decision by 2 or 3% points? We wouldn’t have a chance in the future as a united Scotland.
Enough of the heckling: You can’t post anything online without the nit pickers moaning and correcting you – I have an opinion and you have yours, fine, but stop “correcting me” as I haven’t done that to your posts. There seems to be a fear in Yes voters that other opinions exist – I’ve read interesting articles from both sides but I don’t automatically negatively comment on the Yes ones because I’m a No voter – each to their own.
Enough of the Apathy: “I don’t think I’ll vote”. Get off the fence and decide, because the last thing I want is this to squeak by either way because it means we are in trouble.
Enough of the SNP: The sooner their smug and patronising faces vanish from my TV the happier I’ll be. (To be honest all the politicians involved are really grating now!) You do not speak for Scotland. You do not have a mandate to do anything. The majority of Scots did not vote for you so stop pretending you are the only solution to the problem you yourself have caused. Also you had the chance to bury the Bedroom Tax but rather than travel down to Westminster to vote you were campaigning instead.
Enough of the vandalism: I’m a no voter but I wouldn’t pull down any Yes campaign material – others haven’t been as sensible. Both sides are guilty, but from what I’ve seen the No material is more likely to be removed or torn up.
Enough of the division: We are going to have to work out a way to carry on as a group after the vote regardless of the result. We were a decent wee country, a country that had an identity but was part of the UK – that will be gone the day after the votes are made. We’ll no longer be a society who pull together because too much has been said and done for it to just pass without consequence. In my opinion this has ruined Scotland for at least a generation if not more. The polarisation of this campaign has removed a lot from the Scottish character and it’ll be difficult to get it back.
Enough of the fantasy: If Scotland becomes independent it will not be a great place to live for a long time – the change over will be painful financially so let’s stop pretending it’ll be fine, because it won’t. Stop using Norway as an example in comparisons because if you actually look at the rate of change and building of it as a sovereign nation then it’s path has been really hard going – have a wee read of your history books before going there again. Also we won’t be free of Westminster even if the SNP get their way because the Queen will still be head of state, the Bank of England would still set our rates (and they’ll be different to the rest of the UK) and we’ll rely on England, Wales and N Ireland to help us out initially.
Enough. Just stop, stand back and look at our country. Look at where we were a few years ago and now consider the 19th of September. Have we lost more than we’ve gained? Have we damaged our society? Are we still one country? Are we still Scotland?
The only question left to answer now is the one on the Ballot paper and regardless the result, I think we’ve already lost.
I’ve had enough. I know it’s democracy and we should be hugely grateful we live in a country that can make this decision without firing a bullet, but enough is enough.
The Scotland we know and love is gone. The UK as we knew it has gone too. What could and should have been a positive and wide discussion about the future of our country (and you can see that as both Scotland and the UK) has instead turned into a pathetic tit-for-tat spat. Over the weekend one poll put the Yes vote ahead by two points if the undecideds were not included. I would point out that if you check all the other polls not one of them agreed with that assessment. But then that’s not news. I’ve had enough of it:
Enough of lies: Why are we at all surprised that politicians are lying to us from all sides on the issues involved? Did you really think that they would finally behave themselves during this campaign? If you did, you deserve what you get when it all goes tits up.
Enough of the bickering: Semantics are easily played with and that’s what has been batted around for the last two and a half years. The slightest contradiction is blown up beyond all sanity for the sake of a soundbite or headline.
Enough of the bitterness: This is what we’ll be left with on the 19th – a divided and bitter country who will look at the other side with anger regardless of the outcome. Politicians against politicians, friends against friends, family members against family members – and for what? Do we really want a country that only just believes in the decision by 2 or 3% points? We wouldn’t have a chance in the future as a united Scotland.
Enough of the heckling: You can’t post anything online without the nit pickers moaning and correcting you – I have an opinion and you have yours, fine, but stop “correcting me” as I haven’t done that to your posts. There seems to be a fear in Yes voters that other opinions exist – I’ve read interesting articles from both sides but I don’t automatically negatively comment on the Yes ones because I’m a No voter – each to their own.
Enough of the Apathy: “I don’t think I’ll vote”. Get off the fence and decide, because the last thing I want is this to squeak by either way because it means we are in trouble.
Enough of the SNP: The sooner their smug and patronising faces vanish from my TV the happier I’ll be. (To be honest all the politicians involved are really grating now!) You do not speak for Scotland. You do not have a mandate to do anything. The majority of Scots did not vote for you so stop pretending you are the only solution to the problem you yourself have caused. Also you had the chance to bury the Bedroom Tax but rather than travel down to Westminster to vote you were campaigning instead.
Enough of the vandalism: I’m a no voter but I wouldn’t pull down any Yes campaign material – others haven’t been as sensible. Both sides are guilty, but from what I’ve seen the No material is more likely to be removed or torn up.
Enough of the division: We are going to have to work out a way to carry on as a group after the vote regardless of the result. We were a decent wee country, a country that had an identity but was part of the UK – that will be gone the day after the votes are made. We’ll no longer be a society who pull together because too much has been said and done for it to just pass without consequence. In my opinion this has ruined Scotland for at least a generation if not more. The polarisation of this campaign has removed a lot from the Scottish character and it’ll be difficult to get it back.
Enough of the fantasy: If Scotland becomes independent it will not be a great place to live for a long time – the change over will be painful financially so let’s stop pretending it’ll be fine, because it won’t. Stop using Norway as an example in comparisons because if you actually look at the rate of change and building of it as a sovereign nation then it’s path has been really hard going – have a wee read of your history books before going there again. Also we won’t be free of Westminster even if the SNP get their way because the Queen will still be head of state, the Bank of England would still set our rates (and they’ll be different to the rest of the UK) and we’ll rely on England, Wales and N Ireland to help us out initially.
Enough. Just stop, stand back and look at our country. Look at where we were a few years ago and now consider the 19th of September. Have we lost more than we’ve gained? Have we damaged our society? Are we still one country? Are we still Scotland?
The only question left to answer now is the one on the Ballot paper and regardless the result, I think we’ve already lost.
Bobsyeruncle
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Don't know. I personally would accept it and get on with my life.
Bobsyeruncle
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Might have had a bit of credibility until he too starts slagging off.
dejongj
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Yes I know it is that wanting to the UK. That was clear 100 pages ago. It is just that notion of having your own control, as you won't not with what you are planning to join or hang on too. I'm actually surprised this is being ignored over and over again. Very scary thought to see a display of such limited understanding how it actually works. You will NOT be 100% in control. Absolutely not possible with any of the areas you've highlighted.
Bobsyeruncle
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Ok, so let's say we vote for independence, end up in a currency union and still in the EU. Then a few years down the line, when we get on our feet so to speak, we have our own currency. What's to stop us leaving the EU if we are not happy about the "lack" of control that membership gives us? We have then gained 100% control of our own country, gradually.
Bobsyeruncle
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301 years ago, Scotland was an independent country, and had been for many years.
Now we are no longer independent, and haven't been for many years.
We could be on the verge of becoming an independent country again.
We are all told that if we win independence, there is no going back, and it's forever.
Who's to say that in 100 years another union couldn't be formed?
Not saying I'd want that, but who says it's forever, and there's no going back?
Now we are no longer independent, and haven't been for many years.
We could be on the verge of becoming an independent country again.
We are all told that if we win independence, there is no going back, and it's forever.
Who's to say that in 100 years another union couldn't be formed?
Not saying I'd want that, but who says it's forever, and there's no going back?
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You're right it's only 30 out of 200, wait a minute 30 out of 200 since 1945? that's 15% of all the nations on Earth have been created in the last 80 years!
dejongj
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Considering that the lack of control the "independent" membership as your own state will give is fully clear today. And is clearly not 100% control. Why would you want that other step? It is almost like you are looking for foster parents when you don't like your own family in the mean time.
Honestly you think that changing your currency several times gradually is a good approach? Swapping one dependency for another where you'll have less control to then leave when you don't like that?
Man, it sounds like the Yes camp is a teenager in puberty. Well just try something and if we don't like it we'll leave again. Right....
Still can't see the control in any of this b
We vote yes we are in control of our own destiny. These EU scare stories only work on UKIP voters.
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Over 4.2 million registered to vote, reckoned to be about 97% of the electorate have or are registered.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29160535
Here's to a massive turnout regardless of the result.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29160535
Here's to a massive turnout regardless of the result.
dejongj
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Still avoiding the point. Are you doing this deliberately or do you genuinely not understand?
Sure you may be come in control over your destiny as in choice who you want to be dependent on next. This is no scare story, it is hard facts and reality.
Ps. I'm pro Europe so why would it be a scare story. However you want to break free to be 100% in control. I'm merely saying that you won't if you go down that route. No scare stories there at all n
dejongj
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I think you'll find that the damage is done regardless of the vote outcome. It will be a very long period of uncertainty. So yes they won't notice much but I ongoing moaning and quibbling.
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Most of it coming from you I expect.
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Funny that! It's the top story on BBC's 4 O/Clock news complete with a statement from The Treasury explaining that they didn't leak commercially sensitive information last night but instead that they had answered specific questions that journalists had asked that [dared to] have answers that didn't support the Yes position.
I watched Alec Salmond's impressively glib press conference this morning and from my point of view, I was more interested that he declined to answer Nick Robinson's quite reasonable questions - made no attempt to respond whatsoever - but rapidly wanted to move on to other foreign journalsts.
Suddenly, close to the Referendum, the Yes campaign doesn't seem to want to be asked any more questions about how it will actually deliver the bread and circuses they're promising!
dejongj
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Merely correcting inaccuracies such that people go into it eyes wide open. Surely you agree that there won't be 100% control
You're the one trying to peddle nonsense about Germany and France etc not being independent because they are in the EU. The only way to guarantee 100% control of our own affairs is to vote yes.
dejongj
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despite this not being your original point I'll answer. Best way likely through some simple questions. Can Germany raise their interest rate whilst France lowers it? Can they align it with their own policy? Are they 100% in control? So the answer is no to all isn't it? And that is just one simple point. Let's not bore each other with all the others.
As I've said so many a time. I admire those who want to create some proper change. I think it is fantastic. However let's be honest and open about what that actually mean shall we.
dejongj
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I'm always critical of the UK government. I think it is way too big to start off with. However the Yes campaign are the ones driving this debate and desire for change.
The primary role should be with them in my opinion to clearly and unambiguously define what that means.
I am actually very concerned about discussions and promises like Devo max and the lack of consultation with the electorate and the lack of mandate that was there for something so fundamental.
It has been turned into one big mess unfortunately. And for a large part I agree that Westminster both those in power and the opposition are to blame for it. Salmond has played an absolute blinder there no got to hand it to him. Well short term at least, I'm concerned about the long term effects, but hey ho well leave that to our children to worry about don't we
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I think that's how a lot of people feel now.
gadgeteer
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I think another important point is that the long term agenda for a lot of the Eurozone members is to become 'ever closer'. The logical conclusion of which is a federal Europe. Now I'm not saying that it will definitely happen but that's certainly the direction some of them want to go in.
So again doesn't it strike you as a bit backwards to declare independence only to join the EU which is trying to go in the opposite direction?
So again doesn't it strike you as a bit backwards to declare independence only to join the EU which is trying to go in the opposite direction?
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Glad to hear it
It won't be a win for apathy, which ever way it goes
At least the Scots would have all (most of) would have made their point
StewartR
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Sad but, I fear, true. Whatever happens on the 18th, the aftermath will be ugly.
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Puts our squabbles over who said what and who's right/wrong into perspective. The first bloodless [if not eggless] independence fight ever.
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dejongj
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Yup they are not helping themselves if they use that man. Don't know why actually since he has no political respectability whatsoever.
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Barcelona today 180,000 Catalans demanding independence. I think Spain might have their own problems, I can't imagine 180,000 Brits let alone Scots doing that.
View attachment 20417
adding this shot just because it's amazing.
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View attachment 20417
adding this shot just because it's amazing.
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Bobsyeruncle
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That statement was purely my opinion. Nowt to do with the yes campaign, and Nowt to do with pubescent teenagers.
I would like to see us using our own currency, but if the experts feel that a currency union is in everyone's interest then so be it. It doesn't mean that's how it will be for ever. Several countries have gained independence from the UK, used a currency union as a stepping stone to having their own currency, an gone on to greater things.
Some may consider that a sensible approach. EXCEPT WHEN IT INVOLVES SCOTLAND!
Likewise, we may be happy to continue in the EU, and grow with our EU neighbours, and relish what independence we have. Our choice though. If it doesn't work, we can change and develop further, as we do not have to continue with anything that we are not happy with. Why would we? Why should we?
The only thing resembling a pubescent teenager is your childish comment.
Bobsyeruncle
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I think he nominated himself. Never was any good at recognising when he wasn't wanted.