An Independent Scotland?

[BillN_33]

Hugh

don't you think that you are "pushing on an opening door" as far as the rest of the UK is concerned. We know that a significant (majority) will either not vote or vote yes ………. so as far as the rest of the UK is concerned, it is a "done deal" …….. you are leaving and it is not a matter of "if" it is just "when"

It will be such an "anti-climax" if it is a "No"

 

[Steep]

Wow. How condescending can one person be?

I like the way he uses that classic break up line, "it's not you it's me" & then proceeds to tell us that a CU is actually just Scotland doing the rest of us favour & we'd all better stay friends because the rUK is in real trouble without the Scots to prop us up. :/

I suppose it depends on your point of view, I didn't find it such but then it wasn't aimed at me. Hopefully that's not the way it comes across to most folk.

 

[Steep]

Hugh

don't you think that you are "pushing on an opening door" as far as the rest of the UK is concerned. We know that a significant (majority) will either not vote or vote yes ………. so as far as the rest of the UK is concerned, it is a "done deal" …….. you are leaving and it is not a matter of "if" it is just "when"

I'd like to think so but I still believe it will be close and there's no guarantee that it will be a yes this time around, one thing that David Morgan wrote that is true however is that Scotland has changed in the last two years, if it is a no on 18th I'm pretty sure it will be a yes next time.

 

[Yves Geza]

Tell you summat Hugh, your constant attempts to brain wash all and sundry with how much YOU want independance is becoming boring as hell, as are your asinine little digs at anybody who disagrees with you.

Here is a thought you and your ilk need to take heed of, we,the English, know full well it is all about Scotland and the people thereof, we don`t need inane drivel aimed at us. The people of Scotland are taking the vote,not us, but if you do vote yes, don`t start moaning about the step that you took.

FWIW, Ade, I ducked out of this thread a week ago when Hugh had posted 660 posts in it. He's posted another 95 "Yes" posts here since then! A zealot? He's James Joyce's Nationalist Cyclops "citizen" from Ulysses!

For Hugh's benefit, not only is Scotch Nationalism very boring, it's counterproductive. I don't know how the Scots will vote in 10 days time and I no longer really care but they've already shown a considerable willingness and some small ability to damage the United Kingdom's economy. However the one thing I have learnt from the campaign is that 70% of Scotland's trade is South of the Border and as a mildly annoyed Englishman I for one will now be more aware of Scottish based businesses and will prefer to spend my money elsewhere. I suspect one or two other British people and businesses are starting to think the same way!

As I say, I no longer care how the Scots vote but I don't place much faith in this weekend's opinion polls. The vehemence of the Yes campaign must mean that No voters will save their opinions until they're in the Polling Station. By way of comparison, the 1995 Quebec referendum showed the Yes vote a whole 7% ahead ... until somehow people actually had to vote for real!

 

[Blank_Canvas]

I'd like to think so but I still believe it will be close and there's no guarantee that it will be a yes this time around, one thing that David Morgan wrote that is true however is that Scotland has changed in the last two years, if it is a no on 18th I'm pretty sure it will be a yes next time.

What makes you thing there will be a second chance for a 2nd referendum if the answer is No? This campaign must be costing taxpayers millions.

 

[dejongj]

A Letter to England

http://anotherscotland.wordpress.com/2014/09/07/a-letter-to-england/

The title sounds a bit pompous but it's actually a good read and really is aimed at folk South of the border. I don't know for sure if he's correct but there's a section about 3/4 of the way through where he talks of the national debt which (if he is correct) you guys need to take note of.

Considering he thinks the labour may be the saviour, I couldn't possibly take the test serious. Pure propaganda on how good it is for rest of the UK. I won't waste my time breaking it down as I feel cheated out of my valuable time already reading that piece of junk.

 

[BillN_33]

The real damage in all this is that all the political debate, lobbying and newspaper and TV coverage has really polarised the opinions of many, which has been divisive and dividing …… this is now done and will not change anytime soon and there are significant angry opinions out there.

Why would anyone want to "divide" ….. we are living in the 21st not the 19th century ………. just look around you all you "yes men"

 

[H2O]

I suppose it depends on your point of view, I didn't find it such but then it wasn't aimed at me. Hopefully that's not the way it comes across to most folk.

I suspect if you asked most English people to read that it would do nothing but anger them & make them less friendly towards Scotland. I could be wrong though as I'm just a Welshman who's very fed up of the labour government in Cardiff destroying my county.

I really feel that some of the Yes arguments (oil primarily) portray the rest of the UK as a load of thieves who've been sponging off Scotland & holding them back for years. Which doesn't really seem conductive to continued good relations.

 

[Steep]

FWIW, Ade, I ducked out of this thread a week ago when Hugh had posted 660 posts in it. He's posted another 95 "Yes" posts here since then! A zealot? He's James Joyce's Nationalist Cyclops "citizen" from Ulysses!

For Hugh's benefit, not only is Scotch Nationalism very boring, it's counterproductive. I don't know how the Scots will vote in 10 days time and I no longer really care but they've already shown a considerable willingness and some small ability to damage the United Kingdom's economy. However the one thing I have learnt from the campaign is that 70% of Scotland's trade is South of the Border and as a mildly annoyed Englishman I for one will now be more aware of Scottish based businesses and will prefer to spend my money elsewhere. I suspect one or two other British people and businesses are starting to think the same way!

As I say, I no longer care how the Scots vote but I don't place much faith in this weekend's opinion polls. The vehemence of the Yes campaign must mean that No voters will save their opinions until they're in the Polling Station. By way of comparison, the 1995 Quebec referendum showed the Yes vote a whole 7% ahead ... until somehow people actually had to vote for real!

Given that many of my posts are in response to stuff I see others post which I either agree with or think needs correcting, that's not too shabby.

Speaking of correcting things, your comparison with Quebec in 1990 doesn't hold up and this forum is a major example of why. Back in 95 the internet was barely off the ground and pc ownership was low. This meant that people had to get their news and views from MSM pretty much solely and Canadian media were no better than ours has proven to be in printing only what they wanted people to see. The Canadian Gov spent a lot of money in the last few days of their referendum and organised a mass rally which was heavily televised, this was credited with tipping the balance and the margin was 1% or something?
Of course I agree that the result could be a no but if not for the internet it would have been a resounding no I reckon.

 

[dinners]

As I say, I no longer care how the Scots vote but I don't place much faith in this weekend's opinion polls.

I don't place much faith in the actual result either.

 

[PaulF]

I'd like to think so but I still believe it will be close and there's no guarantee that it will be a yes this time around, one thing that David Morgan wrote that is true however is that Scotland has changed in the last two years, if it is a no on 18th I'm pretty sure it will be a yes next time.

You can't just keep having referendums until you get the result you like, you do know that don't you.

 

[BillN_33]

You can't just keep having referendums until you get the result you like, you do know that don't you.

Oh yes they can, It will not be over until the fat man stops crowing

 

[H2O]

You can't just keep having referendums until you get the result you like, you do know that don't you.

Of course you can. That's how Wales ended up with it's own assembly.

 

[Steep]

You can't just keep having referendums until you get the result you like, you do know that don't you.

If there's a mandate for it, i.e. the Scots elect a government like the SNP who have it in their manifesto then yes. If there was a resounding no vote then I don't expect another try would be made for very long time, a generation maybe.

 

[dinners]

The 'a letter from Liverpool' is a classic

 

[Bernie174]

The SNP had less that 25%, way less than 25% of the eligable electorates vote. Which if it was Westminster, you'd be stamping you feet, claims they don't represent you and demanding a referendum.
Whatever way you look at it, the SNP really didn't have much of a mandate for anything at all, they just had enough votes to form a Government, just! That osn't the same as having a mandate, it's simply by default.

As for you coming on here and 'correcting lies' etc. I don't see you correcting any of the SNP's. So here's you opportunity. Admit that the SNP are being less than honest as well.

 

[PaulF]

If there's a mandate for it, i.e. the Scots elect a government like the SNP who have it in their manifesto then yes. If there was a resounding no vote then I don't expect another try would be made for very long time, a generation maybe.

So, what happens if it's a yes by a small margin, do the No supporters get another referendum until they get the result they want.

 

[Steep]

So, what happens if it's a yes by a small margin, do the No supporters get another referendum until they get the result they want.

If they elect a government that has that as it's aims yes of course.

 

[Bernie174]

Acquiescence by silence?

 

[pmac]

This has caused far more problems that its ever going to solve.. and sadly all us Scots seem to be getting tarnished by the same brush.
Im still not 100% decided but believe i will vote no as i don't see anything that's 100% confirmed that will help our country if we do become independent… lots of bulls*th being talked about but nothing guaranteed.
We could very easily become far worse of than we are now.

BUT all the posts on this thread directed at hugh and others voting Yes about them pushing what they believe in shouldn't be met with the same abuse and hatred that your complaining the Yes voters have towards the Uk/england. Sadly this seems to have upset the english so much so that here and many places I've looked they have a hatred for the scots more than we are supposed to have for them and I'm sure this is pushing more towards the yes vote.

As for the outcome.. looking around here with what people are saying and on social media around me i think it could very well go for the Yes vote.. Im lucky enough that when it all hits the fan i can easily pickup and leave the country.. I'm sure big eck will do to.

 

[Moadib]

51% is a poor kind of independence.

Having someone else's sovereign is a poor kind of independence.
Having another country's central bank control your currency is a poor kind of independence.
Having the EU dictate a majority of your statutes is a poor kind of independence.

Still, they're all a better kind of independence than we have now. A journey of 1,000 miles begins with a single step....if Scots just keep putting one foot in front of the other...

 

[Matt]

2 things...the last election would have been a conservative majority without the scottish votes...

the 'bile' that has been mentioned..you just need to look at the angry faces of the Yes AND No campaigners when shouting down the opposite camp on the streets, the eggs thrown, the kicks, the shouting, the twitter and facebook trolling or the harsh words even here. Denying that there is any is blinkered.

I think its a backward step. the UK is what it is, and has been that way for some time, we all get along. Look at the country from space and its all one big landmass, we're all here together and have been for for a very long time. Im British, I live in the UK, ive never seen myself as English first as I feel being British and part of the UK is more important than being one country out of 3, though clearly some folk feel that being 1 country on its own is the way to go.

 

[Moadib]

More good news for independence

Morrisons Says Food Prices Could Fall

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...arkets-morrisons_n_4424751.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

Coming after Tesco said that Better Together were wrong to say in one of their leaflets having faked shopping receipts as 'proof' they (Tesco) would charge more for shopping in in an independent Scotland.

Let's be clear - "Prices" is simply talking about the relative value of whatever currency is used (the price simply being a marker for the value of the currency). If the Scottish currency is considered weaker, "prices will rise" (they won't, it's the value of the currency that is falling, but news will report that prices rose). If the Scottish currency is considered stronger, "prices will fall" (no, just purchasing power is higher).

This is again all just a debate about the relative value of the currency, none of which is known. Damn foolish supermarket that weighs on in the debate, and wants to still do business after the referendum.....

The world is wide open after independence as far as prices and currency go. Scotland could be backed by oil - or not. The currency therefore could be very strong - or not. Scotland could repudiate it's share of UK debt, if not given access to GBP. In that case currency markets could charge high interest rates to Scotland as a "risk". None of this is inherently good or bad, it's what is made of it. For example high interest rates can be a GOOD thing, forcing the new government (whoever they are) to practice honest accounting (spend only what they take), and not continue this horrible practice of forever borrowing from the future, and sticking our children and grandchildren with the debt.

The referendum is just the choice of first step - everything after that is what is made of it. It's the old American cliche of F.E.A.R. - False Evidence Appearing Real. There's nothing to be afraid of, only scare stories.

 

[Steep]

the 'bile' that has been mentioned..you just need to look at the angry faces of the Yes AND No campaigners when shouting down the opposite camp on the streets, the eggs thrown, the kicks, the shouting, the twitter and facebook trolling or the harsh words even here. Denying that there is any is blinkered.

I wasn't going to but I will just once more, nobody has said there's no nastiness but what there is online is mild compared to any football forum any week of the year. The actual violence has been isolated and the shouting matches don't really do any harm. When you think what's at stake the whole thing has been incredibly well behaved and civilised up to now. The next two weeks might see the temperature rise but there are voices on both sides telling people to keep calm about it because any kind of bad behaviour just plays into the other sides hands.

 

[dod]

. The vehemence of the Yes campaign must mean that No voters will save their opinions until they're in the Polling Station. By way of comparison, the 1995 Quebec referendum showed the Yes vote a whole 7% ahead ... until somehow people actually had to vote for real!

I'm hoping that's the case.

 

[Matt]

the next 2 weeks is going to be one hell of a ride, thats for sure.

 

[dod]

the next 2 weeks is going to be one hell of a ride, thats for sure.

I'm sick of the whole thing and in particular "we can get the government we want".

SOME OF US ALREADY HAVE THE GOVERNMENT WE WANT.

 

[big soft moose]

Having someone else's sovereign is a poor kind of independence.
...

ahem , didn't England get lumbered with the Scottish sovereign (when Liz 1 died), not the other way around.

mind you its preferable President Cameron (or President Beckham)

still I have a tenuous claim to the chiefdom of the Clan McPhee , so I think i'll declare the western isles separately independent and reclaim my birthright

 

[big soft moose]

SOME OF US ALREADY HAVE THE GOVERNMENT WE WANT.

really ? - surely you voted for either liberal democrat or conservative (or various other parties) , I don't recall there being an option for "half arsed coalition"

 

[BillN_33]

I really support Scotland becoming independent from the rest of the UK and I just wish the rest of the UK could do the same ….. but wait?

 

[dod]

really ? - surely you voted for either liberal democrat or conservative (or various other parties) , I don't recall there being an option for "half arsed coalition"

to all intents and purposes it's a Tory government. Why even bring up other parties?

 

[big soft moose]

to all intents and purposes it's a Tory government. Why even bring up other parties?

well it is and it isn't - a tory govt wouldn't have Nick Clegg as deputy prime minister for example

 

[big soft moose]

I really support Scotland becoming independent from the rest of the UK and I just wish the rest of the UK could do the same ….. but wait?

I really wish England could do the same - if we left the UK , we could leave Scotland and wales stuck with the Irish question, not to mention the drag on our tax revenue (even if you accept that Scotland isn't subsidised by the England - which personally I don't and the proof of that pudding will come after independence if it happens - there's very little doubt that we subsidise both wales and ulster pretty heavily)

 

[dinners]

A journey of 1,000 miles begins with a single step....if Scots just keep putting one foot in front of the other...

Totally agree providing the first step isn't in completely the wrong direction.

 

[Moadib]

I'm sick of the whole thing and in particular "we can get the government we want".

SOME OF US ALREADY HAVE THE GOVERNMENT WE WANT.

Not a troll, genuinely, but THIS system of government and shower of finance supporting charlatans are the really the government anyone wants? It's impossible to strive for better?

As I've said earlier in the thread, I have nothing against the English, Irish or Welsh whatsoever, and would like nothing more than a better system of government for the UK as a whole. But it is vanishingly unlikely that's going to happen, therefore to strive for a better system the next option is only for Scotland to do so alone. Hopefully successful, or at least not for lack of trying, and rUK may follow. I think the majority of English people are as badly served by Westminster as the Scots feel. As the saying goes there are 94,060 square miles in the UK, and the government fights tooth and nail to support one of them.....

 

[big soft moose]

I also can't help wetting my strides a bit when the yes campaign start banging on about the evils of the 'British Empire' - back when we had one, Glasgow was well known as the second city of the empire , and much of the cash that supported the Scottish economy (prior to the oil coming on line) came from building ships, arms, heavy machinery etc which went into the 'oppression/exploitation of the empire countries ... also numerous scot emigrated to empire countries to work as planters, district commissioners etc etc so its mote than a little disingenuous portray the 'empire as a purely English oppression of the 'dominions' as though Scotland is one.

 

[big soft moose]

I also wonder if they've fully thought through the nationalities question - will English people who are living in Scotland be expats, or will they be offered citizenship ? , will scots who've ;lived their whole lives south of the border (or in Ulster) be British or Scottish ? and what about those of mixed parentage , will they have to choose or will they have dual citizenship ? and so forth.

I'm in favour of Scottish independence (in fact of English independence as I mentioned above I'd like to see a nationwide referendum on whether to dissolve the union,) but I'm not convinced that the Yes campaign have thought this through - though if they get their way that will be their problem

 

[Steep]

I also wonder if they've fully thought through the nationalities question - will English people who are living in Scotland be expats, or will they be offered citizenship ? , will scots who've ;lived their whole lives south of the border (or in Ulster) be British or Scottish ? and what about those of mixed parentage , will they have to choose or will they have dual citizenship ? and so forth.

Scots will automatically become citizens regardless of where they live, though they don't have to take up that citizenship if they don't want to. Anyone else living in Scotland if/when it becomes independent will be eligible to become a Scottish citizen, they can also elect to remain British if they choose or hold dual nationality if their country of origin allows it (USA doesn't for example). This is my opinion, I'm not an expert...

 

[Tigger.ufo]

Scots will automatically become citizens regardless of where they live, though they don't have to take up that citizenship if they don't want to. Anyone else living in Scotland if/when it becomes independent will be eligible to become a Scottish citizen, they can also elect to remain British if they choose or hold dual nationality if their country of origin allows it (USA doesn't for example). This is my opinion, I'm not an expert...

So this is not fact at all, but just made up by you then Hugh?

 

[Steep]

So this is not fact at all, but just made up by you then Hugh?

This is a word, I didn't make it up no, it's been in the dictionary for some time.