An Independent Scotland?

Steep said:
hey go ahead, jump to the conclusion that the yes campaign is the only guilty party.

.
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I didn't actually say that though, just that it was disappointing to see. I haven't seen any other vandalism up here and I had hoped we wouldn't be affected by the nutters on either side :(
 
Bernie174 said:
Which is exactly what you are doing. You/SNP are just ignoring anything complicated, or ridiculing it as "Right Wing Propaganda". I don't see the No campaign ignoring anything. I do see them, with evidence and experts disputing what the SNP are producing. On defence that evidence is very clear as an example, yet, you/SNP rubbish it without evidence.

The trouble with quoting people is you do have to be careful it doesn't hoist you by your own petard.

If You/SNP actually tried talking sense, then it might be different. So, for example, Currency Union. Rather than:

"we are going to get our own way or we'll hold the UK to ransom, and everyone else is talking rubbish. "

it was

We would prefer to use Sterling, but that has implications for the UK as well as Scotland. We could not expect to call the tune with the bank of England, as we would be a minority partner, however, we'd be looking to work with the UK to make sure everyone got the best deal as much as possible.

But it isn't the way Salmond and the SNP are acting.
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On the other hand, I don't recall the Government saying...
We know you would prefer to use Sterling, but that has implications for the UK as well as Scotland. We could not expect you to call the tune with the bank of England, as you would be a minority partner, however, we'd be looking to work with Scotland to make sure everyone got the best deal as much as possible.
They just said NO!
As with most things, it works both ways :D
 
dod said:
I didn't actually say that though, just that it was disappointing to see. I haven't seen any other vandalism up here and I had hoped we wouldn't be affected by the nutters on either side :(
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Why didn't you say that then? :p
I too had hoped that the "nutters" would stay away. But then again, I live in Scotlahlahland.:D
 
It's all very nice giving careers back to people not to mention the other promises but we do have to remember that it all has to be paid for. The last figures show a deficit in excess of 8bn which is of course whilst being part of the UK and how this money is managed in the current situation, but are there any projections from John Swinney showing forecasted revenue and expenditure with all these promised costs factored in if Scotland was independent? Proper forecasts that is, in detail and not these silly media styled ones with big fonts etc.
 
You're milking it for all it's worth.

/oops sorry that's what the no ta guys do.
 
On the other hand, I don't recall the Government saying...
We know you would prefer to use Sterling, but that has implications for the UK as well as Scotland. We could not expect you to call the tune with the bank of England, as you would be a minority partner, however, we'd be looking to work with Scotland to make sure everyone got the best deal as much as possible.
They just said NO!
As with most things, it works both ways
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Well, thats not strictly accurate is it?

The SNP published the white paper, or better known as the best work of fiction since the Dandy. In which it said that an Independent Scotland would use Sterling. Westminster said, can't stop you using it, in spite of Salmond saying a few years ago it was going down the drain. But you will not have the protections of the BofE. To which Salmond went off into his blackmail attempt.
So, in answer to the SNP proposals, there is only one answer. Had those proposals been different then a different answer might have been forthcoming.
As I said though the SNP/Hugh have only stock answers, it's as if they don't want to tell the truth, because that would undermine the premise of Independence. It's working on the assumption that lie, hide or mislead as much as possible and get the vote in favour. Once thats in the bag, sod what everyone suddenly realises, they'll never get another go!
 
Bernie174 said:
You can join the Forces, but you cannot and have not been able to be deployed until you are 18 for years.
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Blank_Canvas said:
The British Army will not send anyone to a war zone until they are 18
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jakeblu said:
Maybe if there was conscription and if you could be sent to a war zone at 16. Seeing as neither statement is true I don't think grotesquely immoral is quite right ;)
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OK, I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing it out.
 
Bernie174 said:
Well, thats not strictly accurate is it?

The SNP published the white paper, or better known as the best work of fiction since the Dandy. In which it said that an Independent Scotland would use Sterling. Westminster said, can't stop you using it, in spite of Salmond saying a few years ago it was going down the drain. But you will not have the protections of the BofE. To which Salmond went off into his blackmail attempt.
So, in answer to the SNP proposals, there is only one answer. Had those proposals been different then a different answer might have been forthcoming.
As I said though the SNP/Hugh have only stock answers, it's as if they don't want to tell the truth, because that would undermine the premise of Independence. It's working on the assumption that lie, hide or mislead as much as possible and get the vote in favour. Once thats in the bag, sod what everyone suddenly realises, they'll never get another go!
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It works both ways though as I've already said. The stock response from the no campaign is to rubbish/ridicule and you've just done it with your Dandy comment.
 
Well, Bob, it's because it IS rubbish. Go back and look at it. On the defence section alone it is unworkable. Even the SNP's own defence spokesman agreed it that!
The evidence it was rubbish was immediately seized on by Hugh as "Right Wing Propaganda".
Every bit of research I've seen on that document comes up with the same, it's either wildly over optimistic or simply unworkable. Thats where there's any detail, which often there's not.
As I keep saying, the Scots voters are voting blind. Thats fine for some who want independence at any cost, but I doubt the views of you and Hugh are as widespread as you think. From what I have seen, most of the people who I know who are voting have no idea what that document says or have looked into it any deeper than the document it's self. Although to be fair, every one of those are voting no, so perhaps thats why not.
I am all for Scots independence, but there's a difference between desire and reality. It's all very well saying "Ah, but it's Westminster's fault, they wont talk about it", but firstly neither the SNP or London have any mandate to discuss it, and secondly, thats no an excuse for not thinking through proposals with supporting evidence and alternative.
 
lost said:
To be honest there is so much misinformation that it would be difficult for anyone to make a fair judgement on what is best let's look at different points
Currency union is it possible yes but Salmond is forgetting Scotland would only have a percentage share in what he could do so in reality the rest of the UK would have the deciding percentage so the currency would always be run by the majority vote.
Talk on defaulting on Scotland's share of the debt would result in the UK stopping all cash payments to Scotland and freezing of any assets of the Scottish people think about iceland it would be very messy to say the least. It would also effect borrowimg
Is EU membership guaranteed no. The way I understand it is that entrance for Scotland as a seperate state/country means that the treaty would need to be ratified that would mean it would need to be a unanimous vote. I really can't see all of the other countries allowing Scotland entry on Mr Salmonds terms. There would be some horse trading. With the Euro being one of the main stumbling blocks
EU membership when you do get in how much will it cost each individual tax payer remember Mr Salmonds words about you being a wealthier nation without the UK again you probably will end up paying more.
Suppose you decide you don't like the terms of EU membership how much will you be taxed on goods and then there would have to be a border between the rest of the UK and Scotland plus Visas and Passports.
Flip side of the coin Trident but even now I bet plans are being already made as a stop gap.
Ship building will again move south of the border why allow the workers taxes to go into a foreign governments pockets.
Again as I said before there could be the backlash effect on Scottish goods.
Just suppose things go badly what's to stop Shetland voting for Independence and taking her oil fields with her. This is a bit like Pandoras box neither side can answer the Independence question because the reality is you can't guess the answers to what other people will do.

Please note this is just the way I see it and if I was voting I would be considering these points more than any other. People will try and put spin on them but these same questions will still need answering.
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Steep said:
Turn the question on it's head.

Imagine Scotland was holding a referendum to join a union with the UK today.


The UK is £1.5 Trillion in debt and rising.

Both Major political parties have commited themselves to another £25 billion austerity cuts in the next parliament.

There's a real likelyhood that the next UK parliament will be a coalition with UKIP, which could mean _
An exit from the EU.
Stop all immigration
Flat 31% tax rate for everyone over £11,500
Cut Local authority spending to 1997 levels while..
Increasing defence spending by 40% and buying 3 more aircraft carriers and 50 more Lightnings.
Double prison size across the Uk.

With or without UKIP, the NHS will continue to be privatised (Tories are doing it but Labour tried first)

90% of your oil wealth will go to Westminster who's politicians are steeped in corruption and self interest.

Would you, as an independent Scot vote to join that ^ ?

If not why would you ever consider voting to stay?
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Steeps I am not being asked to vote for that and neither are you. I really don't feel you have answered the questions in my post.
Don't get me wrong I know the Scots are a proud race and I have more than a few for friends. I would really like to think that if you voted yes it would be a Utopia for the common man but if there is one thing this referendum has done it has shown Alex Salmond is no better than any other politicians the Trouser incident and the letter over Europe incident to name but a couple. All I would say to anyone who is going to vote is to study the facts for themselves and remember 70% of Scottish trade is with the UK while only 10% of trade goes the other way. If a backlash effect takes place it would be very bad news and remember this isn't like Syria Israel and Russia where we are spectators ours is more like a marriage and you know how bitter a lot of them finish.
I think people from both sides need to stop and think over the EU Question it isn't going to be easy for an independent Scotland as I said before you only need one no vote and you are scuppered are countries like Greece going to let Scotland come in under their own terms after the way they have suffered. It's the same for the rest of the UK changes to the treaty could force changes on to us as well this again could be a Pandora's box for both sides.

Positives For UK
A big safety net if the oil fields fail to deliver, Scottish trade is at 70% with the rest of the UK and will hopefully stay that way, you will still have ship building remember some of that 40% you mentioned is spent in Scottish ship yards, Between us all we have the best Army in the world man for man, You staying might just mean we all stay in the EU which is the best chance for everyone. I'm going to agree with D Cameron on this one it does need change and accountability though I hate agreeing with politicians on anything. You have an aging workforce which the pensions are smoothed out with the rest of the UK I could go on.
But we have to work together to make things even better if we all tried a bit harder it would be surprising what we could achieve and if one side falls down we always have the others to pick them back up unlike countries like France which is now the Sick and Poor Man of Europe. If we really wanted to make the UK better get rid of every MP and start again might be the best option.

One Question and for me it would be the most important
Suppose you get Independence and suppose everything goes wrong will Alex Salmond be joining you on the breadline or will he have a safety net or bolt hole some where so he doesn't have to suffer like the rest of you don't think I am picking on him they are all tarred with the same brush in my mind. But it doesn't turn out to be such a gamble for him and his friends then does it.
 
gman said:
It's all very nice giving careers back to people not to mention the other promises but we do have to remember that it all has to be paid for. The last figures show a deficit in excess of 8bn which is of course whilst being part of the UK and how this money is managed in the current situation, but are there any projections from John Swinney showing forecasted revenue and expenditure with all these promised costs factored in if Scotland was independent? Proper forecasts that is, in detail and not these silly media styled ones with big fonts etc.
Click to expand...

I wonder if this is another one which will be ignored.
 
lost said:
One Question and for me it would be the most important

Suppose you get Independence and suppose everything goes wrong will Alex Salmond be joining you on the breadline or will he have a safety net or bolt hole some where so he doesn't have to suffer like the rest of you don't think I am picking on him they are all tarred with the same brush in my mind. But it doesn't turn out to be such a gamble for him and his friends then does it.
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An old article and I'm not sure if he changed his stance. He says it's law apparently but then if they can change the law with voting....

I'm not very happy that his pension starts when he leaves office regardless of age. Also explains why he wouldn't mind giving up office for guaranteed independence lol

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ld-plated-pension-like-Cameron-and-Brown.html

Apparently there's actually six pensions: State, Civil Service, RBS, MP, MSP and First Minister.
 
People like this annoy me. He has the cheek to judge anyone's ability as a parent when he's standing there with that bright red face.

http://wwwSPAMfeed.com/sirajdatoo/youre-a-bad-parent-if-you-dont-vote-for-independence
 
I'm going to put my replies in the quote.

lost said:
Steeps I am not being asked to vote for that and neither are you. I really don't feel you have answered the questions in my post.
Don't get me wrong I know the Scots are a proud race and I have more than a few for friends. I would really like to think that if you voted yes it would be a Utopia for the common man [Nobody here has ever said it would be but thanks for the good wishes] but if there is one thing this referendum has done it has shown Alex Salmond is no better than any other politicians [again, never said he was, in fact I've said the opposite but this IS NOT about Alex Salmond] the Trouser incident [was actually for a good reason] and the letter over Europe incident to name but a couple. All I would say to anyone who is going to vote is to study the facts for themselves and remember 70% of Scottish trade is with the UK while only 10% of trade goes the other way [we are in fact rUKs second biggest customer after the U.S.] If a backlash effect takes place it would be very bad news and remember this isn't like Syria Israel and Russia where we are spectators ours is more like a marriage and you know how bitter a lot of them finish. [haters gonna hate...but Business will act in it's own best interest, if the best deal/product comes from Scotland then that's where they'll get it]
I think people from both sides need to stop and think over the EU Question it isn't going to be easy for an independent Scotland as I said before you only need one no vote and you are scuppered are countries like Greece going to let Scotland come in under their own terms after the way they have suffered. It's the same for the rest of the UK changes to the treaty could force changes on to us as well this again could be a Pandora's box for both sides. [again, countries are not children but we'll have to wait and see on that one, either way I'm happy]

Positives For UK
A big safety net if the oil fields fail to deliver [cough splutter... aye ok, yet again we're told how much of a burden all this oil is], Scottish trade is at 70% with the rest of the UK and will hopefully stay that way, you will still have ship building remember some of that 40% you mentioned is spent in Scottish ship yards, Between us all we have the best Army in the world man for man [no reason why the rUK armed forces won't take Scots, they take just about anybody else], You staying might just mean we all stay in the EU which is the best chance for everyone. I'm going to agree with D Cameron on this one it does need change and accountability though I hate agreeing with politicians on anything. You have an aging workforce which the pensions are smoothed out with the rest of the UK I could go on. [I'm one of them and more than happy to take my chances in iScotland]
But we have to work together to make things even better if we all tried a bit harder it would be surprising what we could achieve [that's part of the problem, 'our' voice isn't heard in the UK any more than unionists claim it would be in the EU, Englandshire isn't interested in fixing the problems] and if one side falls down we always have the others to pick them back up unlike countries like France which is now the Sick and Poor Man of Europe. If we really wanted to make the UK better get rid of every MP and start again might be the best option.

One Question and for me it would be the most important
Suppose you get Independence and suppose everything goes wrong will Alex Salmond be joining you on the breadline or will he have a safety net or bolt hole some where so he doesn't have to suffer like the rest of you don't think I am picking on him they are all tarred with the same brush in my mind. But it doesn't turn out to be such a gamble for him and his friends then does it. [if it all goes wrong, we'll take it on the chin, get back up and try again, we're Scots, that's what we do but don't expect to see that happen]
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Finally reference my reversed question, that's exactly the point, if you would not choose to join a union in that state, why would you vote to stay in it if you had the chance to leave?
 
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It's getting close to voting day and in all these months I've never heard a single argument to keep me from voting yes, lots of rubbishing, lots of trolling, lots of recycling of the same tired old questions, with a few genuine questions it has to be said but not one good enough reason to vote no.
 
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Steep said:
It's getting close to voting day and in all these months I've never heard a single argument to keep me from voting yes, lots of rubbishing, lots of trolling, lots of recycling of the same tired old questions, with a few genuine questions it has to be said but not one good enough reason to vote no.
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That's the beauty of free speech and a democracy, everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how right or wrong it may be :)
 
Crap internet double post!!
 
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Crappy internet AGAIN !!!
 
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gman said:
It's all very nice giving careers back to people not to mention the other promises but we do have to remember that it all has to be paid for. The last figures show a deficit in excess of 8bn which is of course whilst being part of the UK and how this money is managed in the current situation, but are there any projections from John Swinney showing forecasted revenue and expenditure with all these promised costs factored in if Scotland was independent? Proper forecasts that is, in detail and not these silly media styled ones with big fonts etc.
Click to expand...

:whistle:
 
I did but couldn't find it. Nice attitude.
 
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I've found some of Hugh's posts in this thread to be very informative.

It does seem however that he's hell bent on promoting / defending / convincing us that yes is the way to go.

Nothing wrong with that but it has kind of taken over the thread.
 
dinners said:
I've found some of Hugh's posts in this thread to be very informative.
It does seem however that he's hell bent on promoting / defending / convincing us that yes is the way to go.
Nothing wrong with that but it has kind of taken over the thread.
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Perhaps he's Alex Slamonds press officer ;)

You know I really couldn't care less whether Scotland becomes independent or not.

But dropping by this thread from time to time, its beginning to look like the "NO" voters
really CBA to argue their point any more.
And that's how wars elections are won and lost.
With one side getting fed up with all the propaganda
from the other, and becoming disinterested.

Just saying ;)
 
Steep said:
It's getting close to voting day and in all these months I've never heard a single argument to keep me from voting yes, lots of rubbishing, lots of trolling, lots of recycling of the same tired old questions, with a few genuine questions it has to be said but not one good enough reason to vote no.
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Works both ways though. I haven't heard a good argument to convince my head away from no. The heart is different
 
I don't really think 'No' argue their case.

It's the 'Yes' that are pushing for change so they obviously shout loudest.

The 'No' were fed up with it all before it even began.
 
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gman said:
Was the war in Iraq legal? Moral? Right?
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Mmmm, you couldn't have picked a worse straw man to build! :-) Seriously, I'd answer that but I expect it would drag the thread very off topic.

If you believe it to be illegal for 16/17 year old people to vote in the independence referendum, can you direct me to the statute that is in breach? I've no issue with anyone disagreeing with the voting age change as their personal position - that's fine of course. But the original point was questioning the legality and that was the point I was clarifying.

Considering morality, on this and indeed most moral issues everyone's line will be drawn in a slightly different position in the sand. How then do we effect change, considering the moral aspect? So far society's chosen way is through the democratic process - and that is what was applied in this case. Indeed all parties involved AGREED on where the line in the sand was to be moved to - it's not even as though two parties agreed and one was shouted down. All involved agreed on this revised position.

The powers were devolved - Proposals made - Democratic process properly applied - Statute was created. It's therefore legal, as well as reflecting the balance of morals of those people society has appointed to office. I can only therefore conclude it is Legal, it is Moral, and consequently it must be Right. At least according to the way we have chosen to run society today.
 
dod said:
Works both ways though. I haven't heard a good argument to convince my head away from no. The heart is different
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This is kind of how i feel. People here automatically assume I'm a No voter but I'm very much for independence, but only if we can afford it (have i already said that?) and despite some people already thinking they've proven this I'm yet to be convinced or seen anything financially substantial that would be worthy of a shop wishing to expand never mind a country wishing to go independent.
 
But the war in Iraq also went through all the legal motions, so was it morally right? And was it really legal now that we know what we know now?

I'm not really against 16/17year old people voting but I'm not naive in thinking that just because the politicians say it's OK means that it is.
 
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I'm very proud to be British.

It would require a lot of personal gain before I sold my soul and voted yes but so far - not enough to sway me.
 
Here's an interesting thing re the EU. Dr Nicolas Levrat, head of the Institute of Global Studies at the University of Geneva has raised some points about Scotland's membership but the point's will also apply to rUK should any referendum there decide to leave the EU.

Firstly, you can't just quit, it takes a minimum of two years for a country to leave the EU if they choose to do so and even if they do you cannot deprive any citizen of their EU citizenship without their permission (this is part of EU law now). This makes it extremely difficult for a country to quit without having a majority of it's citizens agree, not a majority of the voters but of the population. Any referendum held by rUK would have to come up with more than 50% by population of the vote to leave for it to be allowed (wondering now if DC knew this when he said he'd hold a referendum, thinking he's pretty safe)

On the subject of a veto, he says it's legally possible but politically impossible, he cited the possibility of Scotland outside the EU allowing Russia to use it's submarine bases if Putin popped over and asked nicely enough (this argument probably applies equally well to NATO).

He says the most likely outcome would be Scotland's continuing as a member state in it's own right as being the path of least resistance.


http://newsnetscotland.com/index.ph...hrown-out-of-eu-says-leading-international-au
 
Cobra said:
But dropping by this thread from time to time, its beginning to look like the "NO" voters
really CBA to argue their point any more.
And that's how wars elections are won and lost.
With one side getting fed up with all the propaganda
from the other, and becoming disinterested.

Just saying ;)
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Pretty sure it's because the arguments have been defeated time and again and there's simply no ammunition left to throw. ;)
 
Steep said:
Pretty sure it's because the arguments have been defeated time and again and there's simply no ammunition left to throw. ;)
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:D
You JUST have to be a politician, Hugh.
Come on show your true colours :D
 
gman said:
But the war in Iraq also went through all the legal motions, so was it morally right? And was it really legal now that we know what we know now?

I'm not really against 16/17year old people voting but I'm not naive in thinking that just because the politicians say it's OK means that it is.
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The Iraq war was clearly illegal at the time, and over time has only become more obviously illegal. If Tony wishes to submit himself to the ICC, I'll be delighted to be proven wrong.

This case is clearly LEGAL, and will remain so, there are no grounds for question (again, if you know of any statute breach let me know).

Morals? There's no right and wrong there, we can only follow agreed processes.

It is hard to say a 17 year old girl can't vote, but an 18 year old boy can (in my experience even girls much younger were more mature than guys much older!). These are always arbitrary lines.
 
If the war was clearly illegal then why did we allow it? Because we followed due process?
 
Cobra said:
:D
You JUST have to be a politician, Hugh.
Come on show your true colours :D
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I can't help it if it's the truth! every argument advanced against indy has been defeated.

EU
Defence
NATO
Oil
Currency
Border posts
 
Steep said:
I can't help it if it's the truth! every argument advanced against indy has been defeated.

EU
Defence
NATO
Oil
Currency
Border posts
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I wouldn't know, as I said before I couldn't care less either way.
But you just argue like a politician that was all I was saying :)
 
Steep said:
Pretty sure it's because the arguments have been defeated time and again and there's simply no ammunition left to throw. ;)
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You haven't even started to address them. Just the same old "don't worry about it" and links to opinions which are no more justifiable than anything no puts forward.
 
Steep said:
I can't help it if it's the truth! every argument advanced against indy has been defeated.

EU
Defence
NATO
Oil
Currency
Border posts
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Defeated? Really? Well perhaps if you accept "The yes camp doesn't know and will figure it out later. Whatever it will be will be better than we have now. " kind of way.

Wow, I haven't heard a single reasonable response to any of the challenges ahead. Just nothing substantial there. A real shame as well as I like thinking big, I like change. However not with England, not with Tories, not with Westminster seems to be the only vision that is there.
 
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