An Independent Scotland?

you taking the p***?

you don't see why it is wrong.
 
fracster said:
you taking the p***?

you don't see why it is wrong.
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Not sure what you're referring to? The image I posted is going the rounds to try and make sure there's no repeat of the last time he came up.
 
Suspect you meant Bobs opinion on voter age, if so I agree with him.

You can get married, have children, get a job, pay income tax, go to jail all aged sixteen, why not vote? Why should a taxpaying working parent potentially be disenfranchised?
 
Why should a Scotsman living in Barrow be disenfranchised. Presumably, in the case of a yes vote, those Scots unable to vote will no longer be Scottish.
 
Steep said:
Suspect you meant Bobs opinion on voter age, if so I agree with him.

You can get married, have children, get a job, pay income tax, go to jail all aged sixteen, why not vote? Why should a taxpaying working parent potentially be disenfranchised?
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You sure on that point?
 
Just wondering, how is nationality going to be decided, by where you live or where you were born?

Also, will 16 and 17 year olds be allowed to vote in elections post referendum? I've not looked that up so don't know.
 
simon ess said:
Why should a Scotsman living in Barrow be disenfranchised. Presumably, in the case of a yes vote, those Scots unable to vote will no longer be Scottish.
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Horlicks, anyone born a Scot stays a Scot unless they choose differently. Apart from the age 16 bit, the voting system is the same as previous referendums. As long as you have an address in Scotland that you can register at then you can do so.
 
Steep said:
numpty.png
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I really do not like the tone of that message. I find that it comes across as very aggressive, and divisive. It gives me the creeps and reminds me of a horrible era. An era for which a lot of brave men and woman fought to get rid off. I truly hope there won't be another repeat.
 
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Steep said:
Horlicks, anyone born a Scot stays a Scot unless they choose differently.
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Anybody born a Scot stays British unless the they choose differently.

Regardless of the result - anybody born a Scot that considers themselves British - will continue to be so.
 
dejongj said:
I really do not like the tone of that message. I find that it comes across as very aggressive, and divisive. It gives me the creeps and reminds me of a horrible era. An era for which a lot of brave men and woman fought to get rid off. I truly hope there won't be another repeat.
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Exactly ! - very nasty overtones.

Politically this is the worst political campaign that I can ever recall and most definitely the most unethical one on a number of fronts in the UK.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
We ?

I still never got an answer how is underage voting legal ? - I still believe this could be challenged at a later date - legal perhaps (?) but still immoral which brings me on to my next point. Your Ironic comment - I thought Scotland believed in freedom of speech? - Quite a lot of published cases recently where the SNP have tried to stifle this.
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It's legal because that is a power devolved to the Scottish Parliament. A bill was introduced, and the bill was supported by SNP, Labour and Lib Dems. Passed, therefore becomes a statute and therefore legal. The change in age also formed part of the Edinburgh Agreement, therefore signed off by Westminster also. Passed by Scots parties, passed by Westminster, passed into a statute - it's as legal as your obligation to have a driving license and pay taxes.

UK doesn't have a constitution, so that will not affect.

Younger people can vote for any party, so not sure why it's "an SNP thing" - was voted in by Labour and Lib Dems also.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
I still never got an answer how is underage voting legal ? - I still believe this could be challenged at a later date - legal perhaps (?) but still immoral...
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Well, you've had an excellent answer to the legality, so now I'll address the morality.

You are legally allowed to do many things at the age of 16. One of these is to join the army, which could result in you being sent off to fight in some far flung corner of the world and being killed. Yet as a 16 year old you have no say in the nature of the government which may send you away to fight and die. That's grotesquely immoral.

You've heard the saying "no taxation without representation". This is much worse.
 
You are legally allowed to do many things at the age of 16. One of these is to join the army, which could result in you being sent off to fight in some far flung corner of the world and being killed. Yet as a 16 year old you have no say in the nature of the government which may send you away to fight and die. That's grotesquely immoral.
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Except that statement is untrue.
You can join the Forces, but you cannot and have not been able to be deployed until you are 18 for years.

I think the issue of 16 year olds is maturity to make their own decisions and not be influenced by others. Some will be mature enough and some not. But on balance I don't think it was a very good idea to include 16 year olds.
Having said that, I was watching something months ago, where a 'mock' referenedum of 16 year olds still in school was conducted and they voted 70% or so against independence. But that was most likely a right wing stitch up....Or so Hugh will no doubt claim.
 
The British Army will not send anyone to a war zone until they are 18 - ipso facto !

I just felt very uncomfortable when I witnessed young under age drinkers hiding their 'Bucky' whilst sitting on the Memorial Cross in Dunfermline a High Street whilst being approached by SNP members and scantily glad smiling females positioning for votes. Sorry but that's not right - it's a big morality issue !

Seriously, can anybody who has voted 'Yes' or going to say 'Yes' think that this is acceptable and ethical ?
 
Bernie174 said:
But that was most likely a right wing stitch up....Or so Hugh will no doubt claim.
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That's the way, make sure you get your kicks in first.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
The British Army will not send anyone to a war zone until they are 18 - ipso facto !

I just felt very uncomfortable when I witnessed young under age drinkers hiding their 'Bucky' whilst sitting on the Memorial Cross in Dunfermline a High Street whilst being approached by SNP members and scantily glad smiling females positioning for votes. Sorry but that's not right - it's a big morality issue !

Seriously, can anybody who has voted 'Yes' or going to say 'Yes' think that this is acceptable and ethical ?
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Damned new SNP low! #cybersexnats I'm surprised the BBC haven't picked up on it yet!
 
Hugh

Until you started to tow the SNP line in its entirety, that any evidence that they are wrong is right wing propaganda, I was content to leave left and right out of it.

The problem is you (or is it the SNP, I am never really sure who is doing the talking here), seem to have stock counters to anything that shows the idea of independence in a bad way. 'It's right wing propaganda' being one of them, the others include ignoring the question, and putting your fingers in your ears and singing 'lalalalala'.

You seem to only be able to spout the party line in spite of evidence that contradicts it, I'm sure you are more mature than most 16 year olds so I am sure that you can see my point here. If you are falling for it hook line and whatsit, how on earth can 16 year olds make an informed decision?

As I keep saying, this is a once only option. If when in the cold light of day after the vote, people start to realise that the reality does not match the SNP Utopia, they will never be allowed a second go by Salmond. His dalliance with democracy will suddenly desert him.
 
StewartR said:
Well, you've had an excellent answer to the legality, so now I'll address the morality.

You are legally allowed to do many things at the age of 16. One of these is to join the army, which could result in you being sent off to fight in some far flung corner of the world and being killed. Yet as a 16 year old you have no say in the nature of the government which may send you away to fight and die. That's grotesquely immoral.

You've heard the saying "no taxation without representation". This is much worse.
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Maybe if there was conscription and if you could be sent to a war zone at 16. Seeing as neither statement is true I don't think grotesquely immoral is quite right ;)
 
Moadib said:
It's legal because that is a power devolved to the Scottish Parliament. A bill was introduced, and the bill was supported by SNP, Labour and Lib Dems. Passed, therefore becomes a statute and therefore legal. The change in age also formed part of the Edinburgh Agreement, therefore signed off by Westminster also. Passed by Scots parties, passed by Westminster, passed into a statute - it's as legal as your obligation to have a driving license and pay taxes.
UK doesn't have a constitution, so that will not affect.
Younger people can vote for any party, so not sure why it's "an SNP thing" - was voted in by Labour and Lib Dems also.
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Was the war in Iraq legal? Moral? Right?
 
Driving in this morning it was disappointing to see a pro union banner had been slashed over the weekend. God only knows what will happen if the vote goes against the yes campaign.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
The British Army will not send anyone to a war zone until they are 18 - ipso facto !

I just felt very uncomfortable when I witnessed young under age drinkers hiding their 'Bucky' whilst sitting on the Memorial Cross in Dunfermline a High Street whilst being approached by SNP members and scantily glad smiling females positioning for votes. Sorry but that's not right - it's a big morality issue !

Seriously, can anybody who has voted 'Yes' or going to say 'Yes' think that this is acceptable and ethical ?
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I don't think it is acceptable if they were trying to persuade underage drinkers to vote SNP. Were you party to what was being said?
Whilst I don't think its acceptable, I think you need to get a grip on reality. If you feel uncomfortable that easily, perhaps you need to stay out of Dunfermline high st.:p
 
dejongj said:
I really do not like the tone of that message. I find that it comes across as very aggressive, and divisive. It gives me the creeps and reminds me of a horrible era. An era for which a lot of brave men and woman fought to get rid off. I truly hope there won't be another repeat.
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What on earth are you talking about?
 
dod said:
Driving in this morning it was disappointing to see a pro union banner had been slashed over the weekend. God only knows what will happen if the vote goes against the yes campaign.
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Numpties everywhere but hey go ahead, jump to the conclusion that the yes campaign is the only guilty party.

View attachment 19743

Much more evidence out there of stupidity and vandalism by idiots on both sides.
 
Although there have been some "unsavoury" scenes, I think folks need to appreciate that whilst unacceptable, they represent only a very small part of the overall campaign, on both camps.
I also feel that although independence is a very serious issue, that some folks need to lighten up a bit.
 
dejongj said:
You obviously seem to think a poster with that tone is acceptable. :eek:
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What tone? Telling people that if they don't agree with the politics of Nigel Farage, then ignore him?
I would find it unacceptable if it was telling folks to egg him, beat him up, chase him down the high street with big sticks, but it's not.
It certainly doesn't remind me of anything to do with previous eras which people have fought and died for.
 
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Bernie174 said:
Hugh

Until you started to tow the SNP line in its entirety, that any evidence that they are wrong is right wing propaganda, I was content to leave left and right out of it.

The problem is you (or is it the SNP, I am never really sure who is doing the talking here), seem to have stock counters to anything that shows the idea of independence in a bad way. 'It's right wing propaganda' being one of them, the others include ignoring the question, and putting your fingers in your ears and singing 'lalalalala'.

You seem to only be able to spout the party line in spite of evidence that contradicts it, I'm sure you are more mature than most 16 year olds so I am sure that you can see my point here. If you are falling for it hook line and whatsit, how on earth can 16 year olds make an informed decision?

As I keep saying, this is a once only option. If when in the cold light of day after the vote, people start to realise that the reality does not match the SNP Utopia, they will never be allowed a second go by Salmond. His dalliance with democracy will suddenly desert him.
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"The problem is you (or is it the SNP, I am never really sure who is doing the talking here), seem to have stock counters to anything that shows the idea of independence in a bad way." My view also.
 
arclight said:
"The problem is you (or is it the SNP, I am never really sure who is doing the talking here), seem to have stock counters to anything that shows the idea of independence in a bad way." My view also.
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What do you really expect? All we hear is how Bad independence is going to be, which to be honest, is all I expected anyway. Instead of concentrating on how bad independence is going to be ( which doesn't appear to be working) why not try and convince the yes voters by concentrating on how great the Union is going to be?
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Although there have been some "unsavoury" scenes, I think folks need to appreciate that whilst unacceptable, they represent only a very small part of the overall campaign, on both camps.
I also feel that although independence is a very serious issue, that some folks need to lighten up a bit.
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This kind of thing was bound to happen, it only takes one idiot who doesn't realise how much propaganda can be made of one senseless act.

There the case of Labour MP Ian Murray who made a big stink about his constituency office being vandalised by yes campaigners...
murraymp.jpeg

Pathetic but it made the news.

This unsurprisingly didn't make the news

Nicola Sturgeons office.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
What do you really expect? All we hear is how Bad independence is going to be, which to be honest, is all I expected anyway. Instead of concentrating on how bad independence is going to be ( which doesn't appear to be working) why not try and convince the yes voters by concentrating on how great the Union is going to be?
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This quote from a great advocate of national independence, Gandhi -

“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”

 
Bobsyeruncle said:
What do you really expect? All we hear is how Bad independence is going to be, which to be honest, is all I expected anyway. Instead of concentrating on how bad independence is going to be ( which doesn't appear to be working) why not try and convince the yes voters by concentrating on how great the Union is going to be?
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I do agree with this, focusing on the positive would probably have a greater impact but to be honest all i hear about in the news is constant bad things with the uk.
 
Scottish veterans talking about why they are yes.

It's 2 hours worth of personal views from a number of ex Navy/Army/RAF personnel with a very good point made part way through about how a SDF could give careers back to many of those made redundant from UK forces in the last few years.

http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/VeteransForIndependence

Can't embed the video directly, sorry.
 
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”
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Which is exactly what you are doing. You/SNP are just ignoring anything complicated, or ridiculing it as "Right Wing Propaganda". I don't see the No campaign ignoring anything. I do see them, with evidence and experts disputing what the SNP are producing. On defence that evidence is very clear as an example, yet, you/SNP rubbish it without evidence.

The trouble with quoting people is you do have to be careful it doesn't hoist you by your own petard.

If You/SNP actually tried talking sense, then it might be different. So, for example, Currency Union. Rather than:

"we are going to get our own way or we'll hold the UK to ransom, and everyone else is talking rubbish. "

it was

We would prefer to use Sterling, but that has implications for the UK as well as Scotland. We could not expect to call the tune with the bank of England, as we would be a minority partner, however, we'd be looking to work with the UK to make sure everyone got the best deal as much as possible.

But it isn't the way Salmond and the SNP are acting.
 
It's 2 hours worth of personal views from a number of ex Navy/Army/RAF personnel with a very good point made part way through about how a SDF could give careers back to many of those made redundant from UK forces in the last few years.
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Except your SDF is going to be 15,000 strong, so once you have the Scots Regiments of the Infantry, the armoured/Artillery/Engineer and logistics regiments that are needed to go with them, that are of Scots heritage, there's no room in that number for an air or maritime force, let alone those made redundant.
 
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