An Independent Scotland?

My assertion was that we didn't want a different Westminster Government since none of them represent us. The Scottish government does not have the full powers an independent government would have. Here's a list of the things our current parliament has control over and those it doesn't. (from the Scottish Parliament website)

Devolved powers
The following areas are decided in Scotland.

  • Health
  • Education
  • Housing
  • Sport and Arts
  • Agriculture, Forestry & Fishing
  • Emergency Services
  • Planning
  • Social Work
  • Heritage
  • some Transport
  • Tourism
Reserved powers
Decisions (mostly about matters with a UK or international impact) are reserved and dealt with at Westminster.

  • Defence
  • UK Foreign Policy
  • Social Security
  • Financial & Economic Matters
  • Employment
  • Constitutional matters
  • Immigration & Nationality
  • Monetary System
  • Common Markets
  • Some transport
  • Data Protection
  • Energy
  • Gambling
  • Medical Ethics
  • Equal Opportunities
The UK Parliament at Westminster retains power to legislate on any matter, but the convention of devolution is that the UK Parliament will not normally legislate on devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.
 
StewartR said:
(Ironically the London government has all the powers it needs to do all the things that *you* want done, but there are increasing numbers of people down here who think it doesn't have all the powers it needs to do all the things *we* want done. For example the EU proposal for a tax on financial transactions would be disastrous, but it seems we don't have the power to resist it. But the UK/EU relationship is a separate topic which could spawn a thread just as long as this one.)
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Agreed and i am near Scotland not in the South :mad:

I was looking at property prices in Scotland near Newton Stewart today i have been trying to decide if its better buying before or after a yes vote i found most sites think its likely prices may drop after a yes vote so i guess i will have to wait
 
Steep said:
Yes.
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Conditions for membership
The EU operates comprehensive approval procedures that ensure new members are admitted only when they can demonstrate they will be able to play their part fully as members, namely by:

  • complying with all the EU's standards and rules
  • having the consent of the EU institutions and EU member states
There are 35 major areas with which all members must comply :-
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis/index_en.htm

The content of these areas are completely non negotiable. Only timescale and methods of compliance may be negotiated.

You can call these conditions anything you like, but the last thing they provide to any member is full control and autonomy.
 
arclight said:
Conditions for membership
The EU operates comprehensive approval procedures that ensure new members are admitted only when they can demonstrate they will be able to play their part fully as members, namely by:

  • complying with all the EU's standards and rules
  • having the consent of the EU institutions and EU member states
There are 35 major areas with which all members must comply :-
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis/index_en.htm

The content of these areas are completely non negotiable. Only timescale and methods of compliance may be negotiated.

You can call these conditions anything you like, but the last thing they provide to any member is full control and autonomy.
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Less than 15% of current uk legislation originated from the EU and non was imposed but agreed by the council of ministers of which we were fully represented.
 
jakeblu said:
Less than 15% of current uk legislation originated from the EU and non was imposed but agreed by the council of ministers of which we were fully represented.
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The fact remains that the 35 chapters-of-the acquis are non negotiable. They cover just about all items of importance in any country.
 
The 15% referred to is at the lower end of a range of possible figures. In 2010, the House of Commons Library published an analysis of the variety of ways this percentage can be calculated. They concluded “it is possible to justify any measure between 15% and 50% or thereabouts”. Several different studies throughout Europe have led to this range of conclusions. Obviously our last government chose the lower figure. You pays your money and takes your pick.

In 1988 the then President of the EU, Jacques Delors, predicted that by 1998 as much as 80% of economic legislation, and perhaps also fiscal and social legislation, would be of European origin. He was perhaps mistaken, but since then treaty amendments have given the EU a role in several additional policy areas. To assume that any EU member state is truly independent is a fallacy.
 
chadders said:
The 15% referred to is at the lower end of a range of possible figures. In 2010, the House of Commons Library published an analysis of the variety of ways this percentage can be calculated. They concluded “it is possible to justify any measure between 15% and 50% or thereabouts”. Several different studies throughout Europe have led to this range of conclusions. Obviously our last government chose the lower figure. You pays your money and takes your pick.

In 1988 the then President of the EU, Jacques Delors, predicted that by 1998 as much as 80% of economic legislation, and perhaps also fiscal and social legislation, would be of European origin. He was perhaps mistaken, but since then treaty amendments have given the EU a role in several additional policy areas. To assume that any EU member state is truly independent is a fallacy.
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The higher figure you quote is not related to laws passed in this country 'imposed' upon us by the EU but rather the rules we have to abide by if we want to play the game. You do not want to play the game then that's fine but every club has it's rules.

You think states not affiliated to the EU are independent? You make that statement as if leaving the EU would make us once again Great Britian a true independent nation. Those days are gone forever there is no independence and sovereignty is nothing without power just ask a Ukrainian.
 
chadders said:
The 15% referred to is at the lower end of a range of possible figures. In 2010, the House of Commons Library published an analysis of the variety of ways this percentage can be calculated. They concluded “it is possible to justify any measure between 15% and 50% or thereabouts”. Several different studies throughout Europe have led to this range of conclusions. Obviously our last government chose the lower figure. You pays your money and takes your pick.

In 1988 the then President of the EU, Jacques Delors, predicted that by 1998 as much as 80% of economic legislation, and perhaps also fiscal and social legislation, would be of European origin. He was perhaps mistaken, but since then treaty amendments have given the EU a role in several additional policy areas. To assume that any EU member state is truly independent is a fallacy.
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Yip, independence/full control of one's country/autonomy ................ membership of the EU are entirely two mutually exclusive conditions.
 
jakeblu said:
The higher figure you quote is not related to laws passed in this country 'imposed' upon us by the EU but rather the rules we have to abide by if we want to play the game. You do not want to play the game then that's fine but every club has it's rules.

You think states not affiliated to the EU are independent? You make that statement as if leaving the EU would make us once again Great Britian a true independent nation. Those days are gone forever there is no independence and sovereignty is nothing without power just ask a Ukrainian.
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I'm sorry but you appear to have completely mistaken what said.

The percentages quoted are not my figures. What I said is contained in the Commons Library report and that is, "there are numerous different studies and ways of calculating the the impact of the EU on an individual country's legislation". They arrived at that conclusion after considering numerous european studies that produced a range of results of between 15% to 50%. I merely put the 15% quoted by yourself in context.

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I think "states not affiliated to the EU are independent". I'm even less sure how you conclude that what you think I said results in a statement I never made. i.e "leaving the EU would make Great Britain a true independent nation". Those are your words, not mine. I've searched my previous post in vain to find where I wrote or inferred that.

What I actually said was as follows. "To assume that an EU member state is truly independent is a fallacy". In the context of the current discussion, re an independent Scotland, what I am saying is that if anyone believes that a Scotland, independent from rUK but a member of the EU, would be truly independent, then they are mistaken. Scotland would still be constrained by EU policy and legislation, and, in the final analysis not truly independent, as they claim they wish to be.
 
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chadders said:
I'm sorry but you appear to have completely mistaken what said.

The percentages quoted are not my figures. What I said is contained in the Commons Library report and that is, "there are numerous different studies and ways of calculating the the impact of the EU on an individual country's legislation". They arrived at that conclusion after considering numerous european studies that produced a range of results of between 15% to 50%. I merely put the 15% quoted by a previous poster in context..
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I was that previous poster ;) and I was quoting the same source, the Commons library report 2010 where 7% of uk primary legislation and 14% of secondary legislation originated from the EU. There are of course other directives/initiatives that did not require legisaltion either because the were easily implemented into our current framework and others have no actual impact on the UK. When those are included then the figure is higher, which is where the 55% ( it has recently been updated) but this is generally agreed is an overestimate. Not including those Initiatives gives the lower figure of 15% which again is generally agreed that it is an underestimate and the actual figure lies somewhere between. What is worth noting about these laws/directives/initiatives is that they were not imposed but agreed by the council of ministers of which we have full representaion
chadders said:
I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I think "states not affiliated to the EU are independent". I'm even less sure how you conclude that what you think I said results in a statement I never made. i.e "leaving the EU would make Great Britain a true independent nation". Those are your words, not mine. I've searched my previous post in vain to find where I wrote or inferred that.

What I actually said was as follows. "To assume that an EU member state is truly independent is a fallacy". In the context of the current discussion, re an independent Scotland, what I am saying is that if anyone believes that a Scotland, independent from rUK but a member of the EU, would be truly independent, then they are mistaken. Scotland would still be constrained by EU policy and legislation, and, in the final analysis not truly independent, as they claim they wish to be.
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I apologise if I misunderstood your point, and whilst I agree that any member state in the EU is not fully independent I would also argue that no state is independent in the sense that their are greater forces at work which determine a nations legislative framework.
 
Spent a few nights in the pub (I live in Scotland) over the last week due to the world cup.

Very interesting.

I accept the anti England Brigade (those who were born or bred with the chip on the shoulder) can be a pain in the archie when it comes to the football - but I was somewhat shocked to learn that (from a UK point of view) they are are all in the no camp.

More importantly - We were in charge of a Youth disco tonight and the 'Yes' ploy to corrupt young folk is being found out and ultimately failing.
 
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dinners said:
Most importantly - We were in charge of a kids disco tonight and the 'Yes' ploy to corrupt young folk is being found out and ultimately failing.
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Aye right, is that the evil plot to make all non Scots citizens eat deep fried haggis burgers for breakfast in an attempt to brainwash them into voting yes?
 
Steep said:
Aye right, is that the evil plot to make all non Scots citizens eat deep fried haggis burgers for breakfast in an attempt to brainwash them into voting yes?
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Unlike most adults who are yes / no regardless - It was good to see that the young folk are actually taking the time to research for themselves what the implications might be and how it may affect them.
 
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No need to be fit, just walk anticlockwise round the hill, because they have two short legs on one side they can only go clockwise you see.
 
border_all said:
Is it easy to cook ?
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Yes, very easy. Traditionally, you boil it, but you can slice it and cook it in the oven too. I grew up in Scotland and used to like it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to buy it now. Mind you, that applies to quite a few other things too.
 
MartynK said:
Yes, very easy. Traditionally, you boil it, but you can slice it and cook it in the oven too. I grew up in Scotland and used to like it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to buy it now. Mind you, that applies to quite a few other things too.
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Thank you will have to keep an eye open would be nice to try it
 
Actually it's the perfect food to microwave, break it up and zap it for 2 minutes, serve with tatties and swede. I love it.
 
border_all said:
Thank you will have to keep an eye open would be nice to try it
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Hugh's quite right. It's been a long time since we cooked it, and I'd forgotten about using a microwave, but any of these methods will work. A lot of people enjoy it, so give it a try.

One thing, haggis comes in a skin. Prick it (like a sausage), if you're going to boil the beast, or it's likely to burst and you'll end up with a sort of haggis soup!
 
dinners said:
Unlike most adults who are yes / no regardless - It was good to see that the young folk are actually taking the time to research for themselves what the implications might be and how it may affect them.
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Schools all over Scotland have been holding mock elections over the last few weeks. Last week 7 schools in Moray held votes, 6 out of 7 voted No. But... 5 out of the 6 were not allowed to debate beforehand or held debates for select pupils only. Almost without fail when pupils are allowed to debate openly, have question and answer sessions with actual representatives of both camps the vote is a clear Yes. Also there are less spoiled ballot papers and voting turnout is higher. You have to wonder if the schools voting no without any kind of debate or q&a are basing their opinions on flawed information. It seems that direct contact and social media are the only ways to find accurate info in support of a Yes vote. The BBC and newspapers are so strongly biased towards the No camp that any information that comes from them is tainted.
 
two main camps on haggis IIRC:
slice and dry fry it slowly, runny egg on top
neeps and tatties

caused an argument in the office with two Scottish colleagues when asking about haggis, they were more passionate about that than anything else I'd ever seen
 
Farmed haggis actually tastes better, the haggii are less stressed and fed on pure heather honey instead of having to hunt for scraps and falling over all the time.
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
two main camps on haggis IIRC:
slice and dry fry it slowly, runny egg on top
neeps and tatties

caused an argument in the office with two Scottish colleagues when asking about haggis, they were more passionate about that than anything else I'd ever seen
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It's traditionally served with neeps (swede) and tatties, but Scottish chip shops deep fry it in batter and I've seen haggis pizza and tinned haggis curry in supermarkets.

I can't see the point of arguing about this sort of thing, and it reminds me of the squabbles over JPEG/raw and whether to use a protection filter on your lens. It's your haggis/camera, so just do whatever you want.
 
MartynK said:
It's traditionally served with neeps (swede) and tatties,
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When my former housemate (Galsgow) was cooking for Burn's Night for the house he asked the German girl to pick up some neeps and then clarified he wanted turnips when she didn't understand 'neeps'.

She came back with what most people would call a turnip and then continued to get very confused and flustered as she was certain she got the right thing and even went to get her German/English dictionary and confirm to herself she'd got the right thing.

it was only upon someone else's arrival home that we clarified that she was right and never trust a Weegie about vegetables
 
To get back the more serious topic and to back up my earlier remarks about BBC bias - This happened in London today, fifty thousand people marching in a demonstration against austerity cuts.
Find it on the BBC, ITV or Sky news websites and you get a coconut.

/edit photo not of the march so removed.
 
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dinners said:
Unlike most adults who are yes / no regardless - It was good to see that the young folk are actually taking the time to research for themselves what the implications might be and how it may affect them.
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Steep said:
Schools all over Scotland have been holding mock elections over the last few weeks. Last week 7 schools in Moray held votes, 6 out of 7 voted No. But... 5 out of the 6 were not allowed to debate beforehand or held debates for select pupils only. Almost without fail when pupils are allowed to debate openly, have question and answer sessions with actual representatives of both camps the vote is a clear Yes. Also there are less spoiled ballot papers and voting turnout is higher. You have to wonder if the schools voting no without any kind of debate or q&a are basing their opinions on flawed information. It seems that direct contact and social media are the only ways to find accurate info in support of a Yes vote. The BBC and newspapers are so strongly biased towards the No camp that any information that comes from them is tainted.
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I don't care which way they go - I have my my vote and that's for me to use. I'm just pleased the younger folk have the opportunity to make an informed decision.
 
Steep said:
To get back the more serious topic and to back up my earlier remarks about BBC bias - This happened in London today, fifty thousand people marching in a demonstration against austerity cuts.
Find it on the BBC, ITV or Sky news websites and you get a coconut.

View attachment 14471
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The only place I've seen it mentioned is the Morning Star. Nothing at all on the BBC or other mainstream media. Which just goes to show it's often not what they do tell you, but what they don't tell you that's important.
 
bindex said:
The only place I've seen it mentioned is the Morning Star. Nothing at all on the BBC or other mainstream media. Which just goes to show it's often not what they do tell you, but what they don't tell you that's important.
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Nothing unusual in that occurrence. Happens every day in both TV and mainstream press reporting. Kee the masses concentrating on "other" things.

Roll on September as I happen to think that the independence vote in Scotland a massive moment for everyone in the UK and woyh no dpite or hidden agenda (as said earlier SHMBO has inherited a house near Stirling) I will applaud a "Yes Vote" mainly to adminidter an enema to Westminster.

We will see more postuting and promises from both sides of the debate the closer we get to September.

Steve
 
Steep said:
To get back the more serious topic and to back up my earlier remarks about BBC bias - This happened in London today, fifty thousand people marching in a demonstration against austerity cuts.
Find it on the BBC, ITV or Sky news websites and you get a coconut.

/edit photo not of the march so removed.
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ITV News - http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-06-21/russell-brand-calls-for-joyful-revolution/
Sky News - http://news.sky.com/story/1287053/russell-brand-calls-for-joyful-revolution

That's two coconuts you owe me.

Guardian - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/23/russell-brand-march-against-austerity
Guardian - http://www.theguardian.com/politics...sterity-london-russell-brand-peoples-assembly
Independent - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...fortless-joyful-revolution-again-9554651.html
Huff Post - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/21/russell-brand-revolution_n_5518215.html
Express - http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/48...revolution-as-protesters-march-in-Westminster

OK, none of these is the BBC, but between them they surely add up to a bonus coconut.
 
Steep said:
The Sunday Post has commissioned a report By Patrick Dunleavy (LSE) on the costs of independence. They've run four stories and there's a link the the actual report here..

http://www.sundaypost.com/news-view...t-the-tortuous-route-to-a-new-nation-1.434943

It makes very good reading with lots of sensible views and it clarifies the real immediate costs and long term costs.
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that's a good article, thanks for sharing. It seems surprisingly difficult (or perhaps not surprisingly) to get a good view on pros and cons.
 
I think that because Prof. Dunleavy has nothing to gain outside of his fee gives the report more weight. That hasn't stopped politicians from both sides trying to cherry pick the info that best suits their stance but overall it shows that financially we can make the transition without any hardship beyond what we would expect from staying in the Union and over a few years even end up with a cleaner more efficient government system.

I have become a real politics watcher over the last few months and I have come to hate with a passion politicians 'playing' politics. Too many of them do it (being interviewed, asked a question, make a party statement, ignore the question) with only a few real exceptions.
 
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