An Independent Scotland?

And the Yes campaign never selectively take figures? Lol

I don't really follow much anymore as there's so much crap coming from all camps, but the last thing I remember seeing was a photo showing four people portraying to be labour with a big banner in support of Independence and then another photo showing an SNP rally or something and linking all those four people to the SNP party lol

Using actors etc in a poster campaign is standard stuff, but using your own people to pretend to be another party and their views is just fraud.
 
That depends on who they get to run it, if it's done on a community basis I think it will be a success but if it's left up to civil servants then the bureaucracy will likely stifle it from the outset. I'm not in favour of centralising anything but at least in an independent Scotland the centre will be pretty accessible to most people.


You've made this sort of reference a couple of times. And I'm confused by it. Do you mean physical distance or am I mis reading? (perfectly possible) because the UK ain't a big country and getting from Scotland to London seems a lot easier then parts of France to Paris, Italy to Rome to name but two.I don't think physical difference to government is that big a deal. I have a member of the current cabinet lives around 200yds down the road. Its not increased my access to government. It does play merry hell occasionally with the traffic when the press camp outside his door though
 
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I've not seen the poster you're talking about Gman but ref 'selective figures' I've said already in this thread that ALL polititians say whatever they think will get them the most votes. Check your fingers for rings after you've shaken a polititians hand and look out the window if one says the sun is out.
I'm a socialist but I've been an SNP voter all my life because I want to see Scotland independent. I'd normally have been a Labour voter but even that's in doubt now as they are moving further to the right than the Lib Dems. The thing with the SNP is that regardless of the propaganda and bull, they are still the best chance for positive change in Scotland.
 
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You've made this sort of reference a couple of times. And I'm confused by it. Do you mean physical difference or am I mis reading (perfectly possible) because the UK ain't a big country and getting from Scotland to London seems a lot easier then parts of France to Paris, Italy to Rome to name but two.I don't think physical difference to government is that big a deal. I have a member of the current cabinet lives around 200yds down the road. Its not increased my access to government. It does play merry hell occasionally with the traffic when the press camp outside his door though

It's both physical and mental, I live in the Highlands but can get to Edinburgh in less than three hours if I need to, most of the population of Scotland are an hour away or less. The mental bit is more important though, Scots are different to the English, we think differently, often have different priorities , damned near speak a different language even though it's called english. Westminster is foreign to us in much the same way I suspect folk in the North of England think it's foreign and their habit of using Scotland as a test bed for unpopular taxes and policies only serves to widen the gulf.
A government in Hollyrood would be made up of Scots, thinking the way Scots do and working only for Scotland, to my mind that can only be a good thing.
 
It seems more likely that it will be run by Brussels and anything but Scots lol
 
I've looked up the banner SNP / Labour thing you mentioned, the two instances I've seen were both at Yes Scotland activities, Yes Scotland is a cross-party organisation which is not affiliated to any political party and members of all parties can and do mix freely, posing for pictures at their stalls and meetings.
 
lol sorry that doesn't wash with me. Why not just use labour members? As said, deception.
 
lol sorry that doesn't wash with me. Why not just use labour members? As said, deception.

Show me an instance where deception occurred.
 
Because they were purporting to be Labour members in order to make the public believe that Labour are behind the Yes Campaign.
 
It's not that her figures were wrong, she/they just picked the ones that looked best and ignored parts of the data that didn't suit them. For example her statement made it seem like all the 88% of Scottish households she talked of were capable of paying more tax, but in that 88% are all the pensioners in the country, a distinction made in the tables they got the data from but ignored by them. They also chose to use data from an earlier report 2009/10 instead of 2010/11 because the tax paid percentages were lower, i.e. the figures looked better for the point she wanted to make. I think if she'd done something like that in her own tax return the inland revenue would have prosecuted her for fraud.

If there are so many pensioners in that 88% then doesn't that highlight yet another problem being pensions, which the White Paper did not answer properly and caused concern with professionals from ICAS? Even looking at those figures linked to, 52.7% is still a very high figure for a small country - especially when considering they've apparently stripped out a lot of public spending from those figures.

I also find that people on the Yes Campaign can never except that there are negatives and when there's no clear answer you just get supposition. I find this unrealistic and raises my suspicious that Independence is more about patriotism rather than financial sense.

It's also not right that the SNP have a larger majority in the Scottish Parliament than all the other parties combined. This allows one party far too much power and the whole point of the MMP system was to prevent such.

Rhetoric such as "no other country that went independent has ever wanted to go back" doesn't wash with me. How do we know if they do or don't want to go back to a union? Pride may be preventing it, perhaps they aren't wanted back? Maybe the politicians are preventing the people's wish? Who knows. But then take Crimea, they wanted to go back with Russia. Of course I'm sure the Yes Campaign will have something to say about that such as Russia planted millions of Russian spies to vote for it, or it was rigged or some other excuse.

Regarding Scottish Independence, I appreciate it's difficult to know because there are so many unknowns and many questions can't be answered accurately but this reasons alone only strengthens my opinion that we should be in a position were we can comfortably absorb any unforeseen problems without any heavy impact on the public, but at the moment it feels more like it's a case of if there's problems then we'll all have to batten down the hatches and suffer financially for potentially a few decades at the least - just so that megalomaniacs such as Salmond can have their moment of glory and blinded patriots with a hatred towards England can shout Freedom in the streets - who also call to boycott businesses just because they are against them (Nationalism strikes again).

At the moment I work hard and my family have a comfortable life - the future looks reasonably financially secure for us. I decided to have a few dotted days off last month and I've never seen the streets so busy. I guess there must be a lot of shift workers and mature students about lol. People say don't judge a book by its cover, but it doesn't take a genius to see that there's a lot of people about who have no interest in working. I don't feel that there's a great work ethic here at the moment - we've got Polish labourers who'll work 80 hours a week without a complaint, in fact they ask for more hours. We can't even get Scottish guys to show up on Monday morning. So we don't employ them. We do have Scottish guys coming in asking to sign a comp. slip saying that they've been looking for work so that they could continue to get their benefits. We offered them to go out and labour and their faces would turn sheet white. Things like this anger me but I can't see how an independent Scotland would improve on this as what do we really have, the SNP and Labour. Both in favour of lining the wallets of welfare claimants.

I don't have the time to go analysing statistics from multiple sources to try and verify their authenticity, I'm too busy working and paying tax lol

But it's going to take a lot more convincing for me to risk my son and future family growing up in poverty.
 
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Because they were purporting to be Labour members in order to make the public believe that Labour are behind the Yes Campaign.

That's what I was addressing at first, the only examples I've found were photos at Yes Scotland events where everyone gathers together, the fact that there was a Labour banner doesn't mean everyone there was a Labour supporter. That's why Yes Scotland came into being in the first place.
 
A lot of jobs could be lost, my included if the independence thing actually happens. I work for a UK bank thats HQ'd in Edinburgh and its not the tax payer billed out one. There's no word of job losses, but with a bank having most of client base OUTWITH Scotland their depositors won't want THEIR money in a FOREIGN country. Just now, Edinburgh, London, its all the same, its all Britain. That could change.

Its a worrying time but I am confident a NO vote will prevail, but this ugly situation will rear its head again in my life time. Thats the thing with these sort of elections, if a no vote is voted in, they keep having these elections until a yes one is done. However, if a yes vote is given, we never get a choice later to undo it. Think of the countries in the Eurozone, votes until it was agreed and then no vote a few years later to see if the people still wanted it.

Scotlands a wonderful country, sparse population, great scenery and history. I'd be sad to relocate but I sense a move to Northumberland is a likely outcome or Snowdonia.
 
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Steve if you're worried about it, ask your bosses what they think will happen.
 
Steve if you're worried about it, ask your bosses what they think will happen.

They won't give a definite answer saying the company is politically neutral and its a decision for the people of Scotland. My immediate boss intimated its likely a yes vote wouldn't be a good thing, and anything that upsets the Status Quo usually isn't in terms of PLC feeling.

However, the company got significant grants to base in Glasgow and Edinburgh from the Scottish government. Ironic if it goes full circle.

Part of me would like to see a yes vote purely to put the end of all the whinging about how the Scots got a bad deal out of the oil and to test the theory about how rich they'd all become, and it would put an end to all the whining south of the border that Scotland is the biggest imaginable drain possible on the Landaners economy.

The bigger part of me considers that the status quo has worked for a long time and my job/financial circumstances/life would be upturned massively with a yes vote.
 

If there were SNP councillors wearing labour badges and proclaiming to the world that they were Labour I'd agree with you, but what you have there is a bunch of guys holding up a banner at a Yes Scotland event with absolutely no context of why and how it came about. I wasn't there and I've no idea how the picture came to be taken so I'll believe the guy running the campaign when he says there was nothing shifty about it rather than the Record who print the picture out of context for the of purpose selling newspapers.
 
I'm not surprised labour and SNP have teamed up. The mantra of vote yes and say no to successive tory goverments is one labour would support. Scotland, like it or not, doesn't vote Tory. I am surprised the Yes campaign didn't latch onto that sooner and suggest by voting Yes Scotland wouldn't see a Tory government affect them. Labour will be default, get in, every time if Scotland goes Yes.

How the labour votes in England and Wales must be quaking, a big chunk of their vote comes from up here...once that goes, so does a huge number of Votes.

What a decision it must me to a labour politician. Encourage the Scots to vote yes and get power up there, or vote no and try and fight a losing battle in UK whole.

What fun!!!
 
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If there were SNP councillors wearing labour badges and proclaiming to the world that they were Labour I'd agree with you, but what you have there is a bunch of guys holding up a banner at a Yes Scotland event with absolutely no context of why and how it came about. I wasn't there and I've no idea how the picture came to be taken so I'll believe the guy running the campaign when he says there was nothing shifty about it rather than the Record who print the picture out of context for the of purpose selling newspapers.
This is what I'm talking about with regard to people on the Yes Campaign never accepting anything negative, just excuses instead. The photo doesn't need to be in any context - it's pretty clear. Labour for Scotland is just another SNP arm, trying to deceive the public into thinking Labour Scotland is for the Yes Vote.
I tend to listen more to people who can accept good and bad, it's more realistic.



Scotland, like it or not, doesn't vote Tory. I am surprised the Yes campaign didn't latch onto that sooner and suggest by voting Yes Scotland wouldn't see a Tory government affect them.

I recently read that there are actually quite a lot of Tory voters up in Scotland but they just don't admit it lol
 
Steve Labour and the SNP haven't teamed up, officially Labour is for No but not all their members agree, likewise other parties like Lib Dem and Tories have members who are pro independence. Yes Scotland was set up to let all these people have a voice and a meeting point. The idea of the parties down South being worried about losing votes isn't valid, it's been shown that none of the elections for the last fifty years or so would have come out differently without the Scottish votes. What would be different is up here in Scotland where we would finally get a government that we vote for.
 
Steve Labour and the SNP haven't teamed up, officially Labour is for No but not all their members agree, likewise other parties like Lib Dem and Tories have members who are pro independence. Yes Scotland was set up to let all these people have a voice and a meeting point. The idea of the parties down South being worried about losing votes isn't valid, it's been shown that none of the elections for the last fifty years or so would have come out differently without the Scottish votes. What would be different is up here in Scotland where we would finally get a government that we vote for.
Not officially..but...Whats her name and Salmond together looked like a wee Alliance forming.

I recently read that there are actually quite a lot of Tory voters up in Scotland but they just don't admit it lol

1 MP Tory MO mate, thats it, thats all we voted in Scotland wise. The bulk of the seats are Lab, SNP, Lib DEM or that monstrous SSP Sheridan lot.
 
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I was meaning more with the main UK elections. Speaking of the Tories, I quite welcome the new stance on long term welfare claimants having to sign in daily or do voluntary work. I don't care if they have to spend all day in a queue, i have to get up early and work all day so why shouldn't they.
 
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I've not read all 21 pages and I'm south of the border so I have no say in how it will all turn out. But if I was Scottish I'd be worrying about the follow.

  • Much of the hatred towards "Westminster" I suspect in reality is hatred towards politicians in general. The Scottish govt have always been able to blame Westminster for anything they can't have so that's always been rather convenient. iScotland won't have that anymore so Scottish MP's would start bearing the brunt of the blame instead.
  • It's accepted fact that Scotland will have to reapply to join the EU as a new country. At first the SNP said Scotland would not. Now it turns out they will. The biggest risk I see for this is every single EU country has to vote yes and that's a big ask. Especially countries like Spain who have their own regions that want to be independent like Catalonia. They may well vote no to ensure their separatist regions are kept in line. My point is that EU membership isn't automatic and a HUGE risk for Scotland.
  • The SNP in the past said they'd love to have the Euro and Sterling sucked. Then 2008 came along and they changed their tune sharpish. Now it's "England would be a fool not to let us keep the pound". Hang on a minute. A few years ago you were happy to ditch us, now we'd be a fool not to let you share the same currency. Furthermore you want to keep the pound...but not agree to spending conditions.....then later at a time of your choosing you'll switch to the Euro!?! Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it. The pro-independents are saying Westminster will change their tune if Scotland votes yes......but what if we don't? That's a bloody big risk too.
  • Salmond like most career politician's seems to talk with forked tongue. He's selling the vision that iScotland can spend more, tax less and everything will be cushdy. Anytime anyone says "What about x,y,z?" his stock reply is that it's negative campaigning. To me anyone promising more spending and less taxes sounds very dodgy to me.
  • It seems really stupid to me that Scotland wants out of a union that's worked well for hundreds of years. To straight away join the EU which is a collection of nations that can't even agree what day of the week it is. As a new EU member iScotland wouldn't have any rights of veto and as a country with a small population have relatively little say on how things are decided. The next crackpot EU scheme and you'd be sucking it up along with Estonia and Romania.
  • Oil any energy prices in the medium term look set to drop with the advancement of shale and fracking. Countries that are HUGE importers such as USA will be energy independent and so the much often talked about North sea oil may not be such a big asset to Scotland over the next 50 years as they currently think.

Lastly does anyone else not see the irony in Scotland becoming independent to be masters of their own destiny. Only to then straight away chuck their hat in the ring with the EU and effectively give control over to the EU of their borders, immigration, human rights and various other things. After all, UKIP are currently gaining a lot of ground with their argument that leaving the EU is the only way the UK will be masters of our own destiny. The two views seem polar opposites don't they?
 
Surely in the event of a yes vote, wouldn't it be down to the Scottish people whether they wanted to join the EU or not?
That's assuming you're correct that it is "an accepted fact that Scotland will HAVE to reapply" in the first place. Maybe they wouldn't want to...
 
This is all just opinion of course but it depends who is in charge, although it's fairly obvious that it will be the SNP. With the cloaked threat they will hold with being able to take your children away by being able to control the "named people" responsible for the "well being" of your children, it won't be difficult to either intimidate people, rig the results or just do what ever they want without repercussion. Nationalism will be in full swing leading towards a lovely totalitarian state under the SNP.

Mind you, I don't remember the privatisation of Royal Mail going to the public vote, or the HS2 project, the Iraq Wars and Afghanistan not to mention the many policies which have caused long term damage to the country and are probably irreversible. I'm sure the public were duped about the EU back in 1975 also. I don't believe for a minute that Scottish politicians will be any different from any other politicians in the world.
 
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This is getting a bit silly now with talk of baby snatching totalitarian extreme nationalistic politicians. I rather fancy which ever way the vote goes for most scottish people very little will change at least initially. One thing I would say about Salmond, and I do follow politics quite closely, he doesn't fit the extreme very well. He has a vision for Scotland rightly or wrongly but he is a conviction politician.

Steve
 
This is getting a bit silly now with talk of baby snatching totalitarian extreme nationalistic politicians.

It does sound silly, it normally does in the beginning.
 
Lastly does anyone else not see the irony in Scotland becoming independent to be masters of their own destiny. Only to then straight away chuck their hat in the ring with the EU and effectively give control over to the EU of their borders, immigration, human rights and various other things. After all, UKIP are currently gaining a lot of ground with their argument that leaving the EU is the only way the UK will be masters of our own destiny. The two views seem polar opposites don't they?

Nobody is in control of their own destiny the best you can hope for is to be in a club that has power and the EU does. Maybe then you can help shape some of the global policies that determine so much of our lives. You have to trade some sovereignty to gain some power because sovereignty is nothing without power.

Steve
 
This is getting a bit silly now with talk of baby snatching totalitarian extreme nationalistic politicians. I rather fancy which ever way the vote goes for most scottish people very little will change at least initially. One thing I would say about Salmond, and I do follow politics quite closely, he doesn't fit the extreme very well. He has a vision for Scotland rightly or wrongly but he is a conviction politician.

Steve

"The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it" - Adolf Hitler
 
Interesting article in the Telegraph about how Salmond admires Putin, the Russian president: Linkage

Is this the type of man you would want to entrust your future to? Not me that's for sure
 
Alex Salmond said:
“Obviously, I don’t approve of a range of Russian actions, but I think Putin’s more effective than the press he gets, I would have thought, and you can see why he carries support in Russia.
“He’s restored a substantial part of Russian pride and that must be a good thing. There are aspects of Russian constitutionality and the intermesh with business and politics that are obviously difficult to admire. Russians are fantastic people, incidentally; they are lovely people.”

Read what he actually said and judge for yourself.
 
"The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it" - Adolf Hitler

Not quite sure how that is pertinent to the conversation?
 
Read what he actually said and judge for yourself.

I did read what he actually said and judged for myself

I suggest other people read the full article I linked to and not just the small, out of context, snippet you posted
 
Excuse me, that was the entire content of his comments on Putin in answer to two questions, there was nothing else.
 
Excuse me, that was the entire content of his comments on Putin in answer to two questions, there was nothing else.

I've stayed out of this discussion so far because I don't know or understand enough about the arguments each side. But I'm with Steep about that article.

FWIW, my instinct is that a yes vote would be a disaster of historic proportions. However, I'm all for the Scottish people deciding their own fate even though the vast majority of them also don't know or understand enough about the arguments each side.
 
Surely in the event of a yes vote, wouldn't it be down to the Scottish people whether they wanted to join the EU or not?
That's assuming you're correct that it is "an accepted fact that Scotland will HAVE to reapply" in the first place. Maybe they wouldn't want to...

I don't think anyone is seriously considering the prospect of iScotland going it totally alone and not even joining the EU. That's rather fanciful.
 
It seems to be more likely that Scotland will leave the EU if we don't vote for Independence, if the folk of England vote to quit the EU in 2017 (or whenever that referendum will be) and we have not chosen to separate.
 
Well, I think it's fair to say that we all have our own opinions which we are all entitled to. Whatever will happen will happen and we will all just have to deal with it and make the best of it.

I do truly hope that either way it works out for the best but it would also be wise to plan for the worse.

In the meantime I'm keeping a fairly open mind and just absorbing all the various pieces of news.
 
Excuse me, that was the entire content of his comments on Putin in answer to two questions, there was nothing else.
I've stayed out of this discussion so far because I don't know or understand enough about the arguments each side. But I'm with Steep about that article.
.


Like I said... I suggest other people read the full article I linked to and not just the small, out of context, snippet posted
 
Aye, ok.
 
Like I said... I suggest other people read the full article I linked to and not just the small, out of context, snippet posted
I did, and it seems we came to different conclusions.

I thoroughly dislike A.S.by the way, but not because of that article.
 
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