An Independent Scotland?

You are hugely underestimating the, frankly, dislike that your Yes campaign is engendering south of the border!

Apart from the resentment that you wish to break up the union but you think it democratic that the 5 million odd of you will tell the 50 million odd of us, which bits you'll take and which bits you'll leave; apart from the Scottish xenophobia towards the rest of the United Kingdom that shows up here and everywhere else when Independence is discussed, there's the political "generosity" of Scotch spirit [no pun!] that you somehow think should be inversely rewarded and reciprocated.

I'm thinking of the fact that you only charge English and Welsh students at Scottish universities while not charging your own children nor other European children - generous - and the fact that Scotland's First Minister plans to continue charging only your southern neighbours. Is that a popular policy up there?

I would agree with this, and unlike Jonathan who is in the South East, I'm in the North East of England. The normal comment is along the lines of "let them go, we are tired of subsidising them" (accurate or not, it's a sentiment that seems quite prevalent, especially with all the cuts north east Councils are seeing).

The Scottish universities charging only the English is something that gets mentioned as well (as you would expect in a 2 university city, with 2 further universities close by).

If your nearest neighbours in England think that, odds are the attitude will only harden the further south you go IMO.
 
Next time somebody down south moans about University places tell them this... If Scotland becomes independent and remains a part of the EU then English students will have the same rights as all other EU students to apply for places to study free at a Scottish university.
 
Isn't that exactly the point I made above, Hugh? "If" and "if" and only if there's absolutely no alternative, you'll be "generous" and we should be very grateful!
 
I see apparent anti English sentiment in many places, generally it's misplaced anger at Westminster and fuelled by poor reporting in the gutter press. It has no significance whatsoever in real life and plays no part in anything the yes campaign does. Why do so many no camp supporting Scots come across as bitter and negative? Instead of the bitterness try and find some positive aspects of staying in the UK, maybe that way you'll persuade enough people to vote no and get to keep the union.

You are wrong, the anti English sentiments are not misplaced. They are very rascist people, horrible, devisive and utterly disgraceful.
Any Scot who is anti English has a very serious personal problem. Absolutely no doubt about that,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ckburn-celebration-will-not-be-political.html

Look at this - 700 hundred years ago ................... Jesus, 700 hundred years ago. What sort of person could be bothered about something that took place 700 years ago. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ckburn-celebration-will-not-be-political.html
 
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Isn't that exactly the point I made above, Hugh? "If" and "if" and only if there's absolutely no alternative, you'll be "generous" and we should be very grateful!

Generosity has nothing to do with it, in the event, English students would simply have the same rights as EU students currently do. The Scots wouldn't be giving anything to anyone.
 
You are wrong, the anti English sentiments are not misplaced. They are very rascist people, horrible, devisive and utterly disgraceful. I have seen SNP people pull down Union flags (at hotels and public buildings etc. by people who need certifying and, in a frenzy that is beyond belief) tear them to shreads.
Any Scot who is anti English has a very serious personal problem. Absolutely no doubt about that,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ckburn-celebration-will-not-be-political.html

Look at this - 700 hundred tears ago ................... Jesus, 700 hundred years ago. What sort of person could be bothered about something that took place 700 years ago. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ckburn-celebration-will-not-be-political.html

Ask any Englishman about 1066, there are events in any country's past that are and should be celebrated (maybe noted is a better word...). I can't speak for what you've seen other people do, maybe you move in darker circles than I do but I've never seen anything like that nor have I ever seen anyone with the extremist views you say you have.
 
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Apart from the resentment that you wish to break up the union
When are you folks going to get this into your heads?......:banghead:

IT'S ABOUT SELF-DETERMINATION FOR A NATION/COUNTRY

It has NOTHING to do with a 'desire' to break-up a union.

If you want to watch Top Gear on TV, do you say you want to watch Top Gear, or do you accept when people say that you are just trying to prevent all the members of your household watch something different? Cause and effect.

If you ask me "Do you want to break-up the Union", I would say No. However, "Do you want self determination for Scotland", YES!!!

I'm sorry for the fall-out, but one means a lot more to me than the other.
 
Ask any Englishman about 1066, there are events in any country's past that are and should be celebrated. I can't speak for what you've seen other people do, maybe you move in darker circles than I do but I've never seen anything like that nor have I ever seen anyone with the extremist views you say you have.

Erm, I don't think any Englishman would want to celebrate being conquered by the French!



1966 though, that'd be a different matter! :D
 
Erm, I don't think any Englishman would want to celebrate being conquered by the French!



1966 though, that'd be a different matter! :D

lol aye ok but you know what I mean about dates, I don't know enough about English history to quote a better one.
 
How about Drake beating the Armada day? 1588 wikipedia tells me.
 
Ask any Englishman about 1066, there are events in any country's past that are and should be celebrated (maybe noted is a better word...). I can't speak for what you've seen other people do, maybe you move in darker circles than I do but I've never seen anything like that nor have I ever seen anyone with the extremist views you say you have.

Hard to believe, to say the least.
 
I'm sorry that English students cannot get free university places up here but that is the fault of Westminster not the Scottish parliament.
My son attends university in Scotland and I do feel a little put out by the fact that he has to pay fees when all other eu countries study for free. To be fair he started post £9000 era so fees, whilst cheaper at the time than English uni's, still seem unfair.

Steve
 
Next time somebody down south moans about University places tell them this... If Scotland becomes independent and remains a part of the EU then English students will have the same rights as all other EU students to apply for places to study free at a Scottish university.

I did some reading up on this and it seems I'm wrong.
Scottish university students fees are paid by the Scottish government.
Fees for EU students in Scottish Universities are paid by their respective governments.
Westminster will not pay the fees for English students to study in Scotland and this will not change come independence so you guys are out of luck either way but either way it's not our fault. The blame and solution lies firmly with Westminster, so tell your mates not to get annoyed with us about it.
 
I did some reading up on this and it seems I'm wrong.
Scottish university students fees are paid by the Scottish government.
Fees for EU students in Scottish Universities are paid by their respective governments.
Westminster will not pay the fees for English students to study in Scotland and this will not change come independence so you guys are out of luck either way but either way it's not our fault. The blame and solution lies firmly with Westminster, so tell your mates not to get annoyed with us about it.

Any links for that? The reports I've seen say the opposite.

For example:
From the Telegraph, dated 12/2/2014
Alex Salmond's plans to continue to charge English students tuition fees after independence was dealt a major blow on Tuesday after the European Commission said such an arrangement would constitute a "covert form of discrimination".

The comments are the strongest indication yet that the First Minister's tuition fee proposals – a central part of his vision for an independent Scotland's education – are illegal under current EU law and would be challenged by European authorities.

And it would appear other EU States do not pay, according to the BBC.

For the Scottish government, free university tuition for Scottish students has been a mantra.

First Minister Alex Salmond has said the "rocks would melt in the sun" before he'd contemplate introducing tuition fees.

But it is not just students from Scotland who get free tuition at Scotland's 19 universities - under European law, students from other EU member states share the same entitlement.
 
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All getting somewhat heated.
 
But how do you know that the rUK public would not accept it? right now it's just your opinion, until and unless the rUK public is asked there's no telling what would be acceptable.
The last opinion poll I saw said that only 24% were in favour of it. It comes up occasionally in conversation, and I've not met anyone in favour of a currency union down here.
 
The last opinion poll I saw said that only 24% were in favour of it. It comes up occasionally in conversation, and I've not met anyone in favour of a currency union down here.
But if you give people the option of some kind of sterling framework with iScotland OR having their mortgage interest rates double, I imagine they might soon change their tune soon enough.;)
 
The last opinion poll I saw said that only 24% were in favour of it. It comes up occasionally in conversation, and I've not met anyone in favour of a currency union down here.

Based on the folk I rub shoulders with up here my guesstimate is around 70% for No. Three Yes types I know are neighbours and are English folks. Their reason is nothing to do with self determination, whatever that is perceived to be, but simple common dissatisfaction with Westminster (loads of us all have that).
 
But if you give people the option of some kind of sterling framework with iScotland OR having their mortgage interest rates double, I imagine they might soon change their tune soon enough.;)

Please provide links to any evidence that our mortgage rates would go up?
 
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Ah - I've just realised that you're talking about Scottish people.

I'm not - I'm talking about the rest of the UK.

The average man in England and Wales is not interested in having a currency Union with an Independant Scotland.

Certainly scottish interest rates would go up, but I can see no reason that Ruk would.
 
When are you folks going to get this into your heads?......:banghead:

IT'S ABOUT SELF-DETERMINATION FOR A NATION/COUNTRY

It has NOTHING to do with a 'desire' to break-up a union.

If you want to watch Top Gear on TV, do you say you want to watch Top Gear, or do you accept when people say that you are just trying to prevent all the members of your household watch something different? Cause and effect.

If you ask me "Do you want to break-up the Union", I would say No. However, "Do you want self determination for Scotland", YES!!!

I'm sorry for the fall-out, but one means a lot more to me than the other.


John, I was trying to answer Hugh and point out that Scottish Independence is not generating sympathy south of the border and negotiations after the vote might not be as supportive as he'd want. From that point of view, it doesn't matter what "you" think you're doing, it's how "we" perceive what you're doing!

For example, some of us don't perceive Scotland as being much of a Nation or Country! Last time you were, you became jealous that the country next door has started to benefit from international trade and thought you could do the same! Turned out you weren't as good as them! The Darien Expedition bankrupted you and you had to be bailed out and taken under the wing of that country next door, while all the time moaning and groaning that they [England] were to blame!
 
I don't think it's as clear cut as that Yves! Think you need to read some more history about it.
 
Maybe completely irrelevant if Scotland aren't granted a place in the EU?
 
I don't think it's as clear cut as that Yves! Think you need to read some more history about it.

You can't tell me about Scottish history! I learned that in my Braveheart studies course at Ally Macleod University :p

Quite seriously, I fear that far too much of the Yes Campaign has being driven by much the same sort of simplistic perception.
 
Quite possible, if Independence does go through I'll give up Tunnocks Caramel biscuits & drink Irish Whiskey and go to Snowdonia rather than the Highlands :p
 
Please provide links to any evidence that our mortgage rates would go up?
It's hard to find evidence for something which has yet to transpire. There are plenty of economics experts out there who have already made this kind of assertion. Even the London based Financial Times has clearly stated that a currency union would be in the best interests of rUK. In fact, they say it would be more in the interest of rUK than it would be for iScotland.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8bf832a8-b984-11e3-b74f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2xj6OFbcr

However, if you need a link to someones thinking, rather than using your own common sense, there is probably little point.

Apart from transaction costs if there is no sharing of the pound, rUK ends up with another £130bn of debt, a 10% smaller economy from which to service it (never mind repay it), double the already chronic trade deficit and a massive (oil) hole in its reserves. Perhaps you should be telling me how you think a currency, even a relatively strong one, will survive that sort of onslaught without batting an eyelid? If a currency has any kind of trouble, interest rates go up - simples!
 
Apart from transaction costs if there is no sharing of the pound, rUK ends up with another £130bn of debt, a 10% smaller economy from which to service it (never mind repay it), double the already chronic trade deficit and a massive (oil) hole in its reserves. Perhaps you should be telling me how you think a currency, even a relatively strong one, will survive that sort of onslaught without batting an eyelid? If a currency has any kind of trouble, interest rates go up - simples!
Is it the nationalists view that no currency union means no share of the national debt to Scotland? Or have I read that statement wrong. Seriously if you don't take your share of the debt I fancy any borrowing you need to do will be fraught with difficulties.

Steve
 
Any links for that? The reports I've seen say the opposite.

Actually no, because it's horlicks, I fell for a line that seemed reasonable and agreed with my thinking, typical internetz disease. I revert to my original statement :-

Next time somebody down south moans about University places tell them this... If Scotland becomes independent and remains a part of the EU then English students will have the same rights as all other EU students to apply for places to study free at a Scottish university.
 
Is it the nationalists view that no currency union means no share of the national debt to Scotland? Or have I read that statement wrong. Seriously if you don't take your share of the debt I fancy any borrowing you need to do will be fraught with difficulties.

Steve

No, it's never been the intention to renege on any debts.
 
some of us don't perceive Scotland as being much of a Nation or Country! Last time you were, you became jealous that the country next door has started to benefit from international trade and thought you could do the same! Turned out you weren't as good as them! The Darien Expedition bankrupted you and you had to be bailed out and taken under the wing of that country next door, while all the time moaning and groaning that they [England] were to blame!
This kind of sentiment is precisely one of the reasons the independence movement exists. A one-sided 'union' where we are degenerated as a country and subjugated by an elitist (and ill informed) bunch.:rolleyes:

Interesting that you should bring-up Darien..... The short lesson in history is this:

The Darien Scheme was to assist (Scottish) international trade. The architect was William Paterson, who was instrumental in founding the Bank of England. His plan was to bring financial prosperity to Scotland, proposing in 1693 that the Scottish Parliament should grant a Scottish monopoly on overseas trade to a trading company, enabling it to harness the lucrative and relatively available Far Eastern market in the same manner as the English had achieved with Africa and the Indies.

The East India Company (who didn't want their monopoly broken) used their influence with King William III and his English Parliament to persuade them to act against the Scottish Darien venture on the grounds that the Scots had no authority from the king to raise funds outside the English realm. Overseas investors in Darien had their money refunded and English investors then also reneged. This left no source of finance but Scotland itself. Such was the resentment of the king and English Parliaments duplicity, that Scots resolved to raise all the capital alone. Thousands (rich and not-so-rich) put their own money into the scheme raising £400,000 in weeks (20% of Scotlands entire wealth and 50% of its liquid capital).

Once the settlers got to Darien (Panama), they built Fort St Andrew and began what was to be 'New Edinburgh'. However, no fleets of merchant ships arrived to use the new trade route, but this was not simple misfortune. The English colonies (W.Indies & N.America) had been forbidden to communicate with the Darien colonists, or offer them any help or assistance, by order of William and his government in London. Without trade, the colony was abandoned after eight months and the settlers began the journey back to Scotland. One ship, desperate for aid, arrived at Port Royal (Jamaica) but was refused assistance in response to the king’s standing orders not to help the settlers. Dejected and betrayed by their own monarch, the settlers continued on, with only 300 of the original 1,200 returning on a single ship to Scotland. Those who survived found themselves regarded as a disgrace to their country, and even disowned by their families.

The disgrace should have fallen on the deceit of the English King and English Parliament.

However, don't let history spoil your little England view of why Scotland can't manage its own affairs. Bailed-out by a more successful neighbour? More like taken over stealthily by a neighbour more accomplished in deceit.

Three hundred years later, the same(?) London parliament colluded to hide the McCrone Report which categorically stated that an independent Scotlands financial position (in the run up to the 1979 independence referendum) would have been so strong as to be embarrassing, rivalling Switzerland as a safe haven for money.

The long and the short of it, is the English Parliamentary track record for deceit when it comes to its neighbour getting on in the world on its own merit.:mad:
 
they were not French

From a Yahoo answer, I make no claim as to it's accuracy...

Normandy was part of France to begin with. In the year 911 the Vikings under their leader Rollo (aka Robert) landed & conquered the territory. King John (the Simple) instead of fighting the Vikings, chose to make a deal with them & created the fiefdom of Normandy. (Normand is a word for "northmen"... Viking). Rollo signed the "Treaty of Saint Claire-sur- Epte" & became a vassal of King John & legally gained the territory. Rollo's descendant, William Duke of Normandy would conquer England & become it's King in 1066 & Normandy would now be under English control. In 1204 King Phillip II of France would regain control of Normandy from the English.
 
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