An Independent Scotland?

[Steep]

All of which only shows that you can get Wikipedia to tell you anything you want to hear.

Try the Bank of England - "Banknotes are payable in Pound Sterling to the bearer on demand. In England and Wales it is not legal for anyone other than the Bank of England to issue banknotes. In Scotland and Northern Ireland certain commercial banks are authorised under the Banking Act 2009 to issue banknotes alongside the Bank of England. Scottish and Northern Ireland banknotes are fully backed with Bank of England banknotes, coin or interest bearing accounts with the Bank of England. No other entity, including the promoters of local currency schemes, may legally issue banknotes."

 

[arclight]

The history of Scotland is rubbish. Who the hell cares about Bannockburn and all that drivel 800 years ago - only the kilt wearing, claymore waving, bagpipe blowing loonies.

For anyone to be happy with separation and earning less (as a certain person on here is) is entirely illogical.

Principals mean massively less that facts. A good income beats a silly independendence situation any time. Anyone stating that they would happily earn less to achieve independence needs their head looking at.

 

[Steep]

But where do you get your figures from? for every 'worse off' scenario there's an equal and opposite 'better off' one. I prefer to believe we can make our own future work for us better than some disinterested Westminster government.

History isn't rubbish, history makes us what we are as humans, as in if you don't learn from it you're bound to repeat it. Don't live in it but do learn from it.

 

[FourRingCircus]

For anyone to be happy with separation and earning less (as a certain person on here is) is entirely illogical.

Guess I need my head examined then.......

However, money/income doesn't mean anything like as much to me, as your post suggests that it does to you Doug. They say money doesn't make you happy, but this only becomes apparent when you have (more than) enough.

Given that you think Scottish history is rubbish, I'd respectfully suggest you are in a minority. We all ignore the lessons of history at our peril.

Without going too far into things, my income allows me to have disposed of more than UK average earnings just on photographic kit in the past year, so unless you are in a similar position, I'd venture that my feelings about income versus a silly independence issue mean a lot more than yours.

 

[jakeblu]

They (No Campaign) shot themselves in the foot with the 'No Currency Union' stance. Only the economically illiterate now accept that this is the only sensible way forward post a Yes vote. They are now trying to un-shoot the bullet. Using the pound is actually more certain than Salmond leading negotiations on Sept 19th!.

I understand why the yes camp may say that but it is totally void of reality. There will be no currency Union. Should independence come about no UK government would accept another nation interfering directly in its fiscal policies. Currency union would also probably require a referendum with the rest of the UK. Any damage to sterling would already be done with the loss of the oil fields should Scotland go independent refusing currency union with scotland would have little or no effect, and the damage done to the rUK would be considerably less than the damage to the scottish economy should you not resolve this currency problem soon.

Steve

 

[FourRingCircus]

Currency union would also probably require a referendum with the rest of the UK.

It wouldn't require any such thing. UK government will act in self-interest without regard for the voters. This is what they have done for decades and I see no rationale for that to change. You say (like the three Westminster stooges) that there will be no currency union. Do you really believe that there will be no negotiations at all??? Sterling will be in a lot of trouble if rUK add ten percent to their debt whilst loosing ten percent of their revenue and ninety-four percent of their (£1.5Tn) reserves. How well do you think that mortgage owners in E/W/NI could cope with an overnight increase of the base lending rate to >5%?

Any damage to sterling would already be done with the loss of the oil fields should Scotland go independent refusing currency union with scotland would have little or no effect

Loss of oil revenue in itself to Westminster wouldn't be totally catastrophic in isolation. However, the loss to Sterling (if Scotland was no part of the currency) would have a far greater effect.

Don't forget Scotch whisky, as it's one of the UK's top export earners, accounting for 25% of UK food & drink exports. Alcohol produced in the UK which is exported abroad becomes subject to UK alcohol duty at the point of export, and a large proportion of Scotland’s £4Bn+ whisky exports gets shipped out from ports in England. The UK Treasury counts the duty levied on this whisky as income from the tax region in which the port is situated.

If Scotland were no part of a sterling zone, then in terms of the rUK's balance of payments there would be a significant problem and it's credit rating would be hampered. Debt to GDP would increase severely: debt per capita would go up if Scotland wasn't taking a share of the UK debt - as defined by the treasury position on 'no currency union'. GDP per capita would drop since Scotland's GDP per capita is 20% higher than rUK's. Without the reserves to back it up, the only option would be a hike in interests rates to prop-up the currency. In this scenario, Scotland would be better off without being pegged to Sterling as it would be tied to a sinking ship.

However, it's all bluster from Westminster at the moment as they know perfectly well that their stance will have to change post a Yes vote. They can say whatever they want just now, as a No vote means they have nothing to worry about. EVERYTHING Westminster is pulling out of the hat just now is designed to frighten the voters north of the border.

 

[chivers67]

Don't want a split. Be a bit weird with regards to Passports, driving licences and all stuff like that the whole process will be much more of a gradual separation rather than a "divorce scenario" won't it? Not sure what the long term issues for The UK will be if it happens will Wales and Northern Ireland eventually follow suit

 

[FourRingCircus]

I've driven all over Europe from country to country but never been asked to show a passport (since 2001 - except a cursory glance at a Passport entering Switzerland, but not when leaving), or a driving license. Why would you think Scotland will be any different, other than too many Daily Mail stories? As for Wales/N.Ireland, neither of them could realistically afford to break from the union, as they are both heavily subsidised by Westminster (unlike Scotland!). Tax revenues per capita in Wales & N.I. are 25% lower than the UK in general. However, if they were prepared to take the financial hit in order to gain sovereignty, who can say? I do find it rather doubtful that the general public there would go for it though.

 

[big soft moose]

As for Wales/N.Ireland, neither of them could realistically afford to break from the union, as they are both heavily subsidised by Westminster (unlike Scotland!). .

Actually exactly like scotland

If the scots vote for independence i'm looking forward to the scottish governmemt realising it can't afford free university education - and various other benefits without a substantial tax hike.

Personally I'm in favour of England leaving the union, and ceasing to subsidise the other three parts , which would then have to cope on their own (or together) probably depending on an EU bailout (essentially from germany) in the same way as greece and spain when their economies tanked

 

[FourRingCircus]

Scotland is the second highest contributor to the union after London/SE, but don't let that fact spoil your rhetoric Pete.

England leaving the union would be a very interesting prospect. We (Scotland Wales & N.I.) could then tell you that you can't have Sterling, we'll block your entry to the EU and that you'll suffer so much that you'll come crawling back with an economy in tatters.

But of course, we'll still love you!!

 

[Yves Geza]

However, it's all bluster from Westminster at the moment as they know perfectly well that their stance will have to change post a Yes vote. They can say whatever they want just now, as a No vote means they have nothing to worry about. EVERYTHING Westminster is pulling out of the hat just now is designed to frighten the voters north of the border.

Post a Yes vote, why should Westminster do anything for the voters north of the border? I'm a voter south of the border - the sort of voter that Westminster would still be interested in - and I would want and expect Westminster to represent my interests after your Yes vote, not yours!

 

[Steep]

I think you missed his point Jonathan, Westminster will say anything now to try and persuade, cajole and frighten voters up here to vote no. After a yes vote should there be one all the rhetoric will be forgotten while those involved try to work out a split that benefits everyone.

 

[andy0306]

I find it ridiculous that you think Westminster doesn't give a crap about people North of the so called boarder. People everywhere are in the same boat, we all live on this little Island, why the desire to split it up?

 

[Steep]

Westminster doesn't care about anyone North of Watford never mind the border, they prove that time and again. I believe that 'we' can manage our affairs better ourselves, that we'd be better off in many ways as an independent nation. I honestly don't think I've ever in my life called myself British, I'm a Scot in my heart and in my head so the idea of a split only has good conotations for me.

 

[FourRingCircus]

I would want and expect Westminster to represent my interests after your Yes vote, not yours!

And you'd be absolutely right to expect this Jonathan. I certainly wouldn't expect them to look after my interests. What I'm suggesting is that YOUR interests are best served (by far) by keeping some kind of currency framework with your nearest neighbour.

 

[arclight]

All the YES vote on here comes from, mostly only two people "Hugh and John" and their ilk. . It will never happen. All the sensible folk will vote NO, for sure. Hand over Scotlland to Euro loonies is a disgracefull farce.

Look at what John has to say "However, money/income doesn't mean anything like as much to me", as your post suggests that it does to you Doug. They say money doesn't make you happy, but this only becomes apparent when you have (more than) enough.

Given that you think Scottish history is rubbish, I'd respectfully suggest you are in a minority. We all ignore the lessons of history at our peril. Oh yes, spend time looking at your history and it will be time wasted at looking at your when it will be time better looking at your future.


Without going too far into things, my income allows me to have disposed of more than UK average earnings just on photographic kit in the past year, so unless you are in a similar position, I'd venture that my feelings about income versus a silly independence issue mean a lot more than yours. John."

Oh Yes, and what about the folk will will lose income come post independence -Rosyth, Faslane, Lossie, Redford. Leuchars etc. As for history, Looking forwards means a whole more than looking backwards at history.

Independance is a nonsense beyond belief. Something for the fundamentalists to believe in ................ lunacy !

 

[Steep]

Well if I can decipher that lot right it's your opinion now give us some facts to back it up Doug?

oh and just what is 'my ilk"?

 

[FourRingCircus]

For what it's worth, I'm in the demographic minority seeking independence, so I'm probably not the best poster-boy for the anti Yes campaign. Most in favour are left wing and 'relatively' less well off. By contrast, I'm a Tartan Tory company director with zero debt.

When it comes to your sugestions about who will loose-out.......

Rosyth - no change, the Aircraft carriers can't be built anywhere else in the UK.
Faslane - No initial change, the Trident base will be there for quite a while and will eventually be replaced by MORE jobs to look after the Scottish Navy. There's only 560 MoD jobs at Faslane.
Lossiemouth - Probably more jobs as there currently isn't a maritime reconnaissance aircraft stationed in Scotland
Redford - Do you think we won't have any army in Scotland?
Leuchars - When were you there last? See above answer.

The fact is that Scotland's share of the UK's defense budget is WAY more than we need to spend to have effective forces of our own. The likes of Denmark and Norway spend a lot less than we currently do on their forces and they are hardly described as inadequate. By contrast, the UK has the worlds 4th highest spend per capita on defense which is plainly ridiculoius when we have or own people lining up at food-banks. THAT Doug is lunacy.

 

[Steep]

Lossiemouth is set to become the Virgin Space launch centre, having the only suitable runway in the UK. Space flight and transworld suborbital flights will 'take off' if you'll forgive the pun with Lossie playing an important part.

I will just say that there are bound to be job losses, it's been discussed before in this thread for anyone who cares to read it but there will be job losses regardless of whether we go or stay. Nobodies job is safe in the UK.

 

[arclight]

Well if I can decipher that lot right it's your opinion now give us some facts to back it up Doug?

oh and just what is 'my ilk"?

Don't what know happened there. What I typed was not what transpired. Suitably edited.

 

[Steep]

It certainly reads better but it still doesn't make sense

 

[arclight]

All the YES vote on here comes from, mostly only two people "Hugh and John" and their ilk. . It will never happen. All the sensible folk will vote NO, for sure. Hand over Scotlland to Euro loonies is a disgracefull farce.

Look at what John has to say "However, money/income doesn't mean anything like as much to me", as your post suggests that it does to you Doug. They say money doesn't make you happy, but this only becomes apparent when you have (more than) enough.

Given that you think Scottish history is rubbish, I'd respectfully suggest you are in a minority. We all ignore the lessons of history at our peril. Oh yes, spend time looking at your history and it will be time wasted at looking at your when it will be time better looking at your future.


Without going too far into things, my income allows me to have disposed of more than UK average earnings just on photographic kit in the past year, so unless you are in a similar position, I'd venture that my feelings about income versus a silly independence issue mean a lot more than yours. John."

Oh Yes, and what about the folk that will lose income come post independence -Rosyth, Faslane, Lossie, Redford. Leuchars etc. As for history, Looking forwards means a whole more than looking backwards at history.

Independance is a nonsense beyond belief. Something for the fundamentalists to believe in ................ lunacy !

 

[jakeblu]

It wouldn't require any such thing. UK government will act in self-interest without regard for the voters. This is what they have done for decades and I see no rationale for that to change. You say (like the three Westminster stooges) that there will be no currency union. Do you really believe that there will be no negotiations at all??? Sterling will be in a lot of trouble if rUK add ten percent to their debt whilst loosing ten percent of their revenue and ninety-four percent of their (£1.5Tn) reserves. How well do you think that mortgage owners in E/W/NI could cope with an overnight increase of the base lending rate to >5%?

I think your being a little presumptuous and frankly arrogant, you want the right to determine your own sovereignty but deny us ours. Lets not forget why we never joined the euro it wasn't because it didn't have its benefits, especially in the early days, but rather the public's unwillingness to give up the pound and everything that would entail. Any possible negatives for the UK economy for not joining a currency union would be pretty much ignored in much the same way that the positives were for joining the euro. Sometimes people think further than their pockets. There is no way politicians of any colour would share control of sterling and relinquish the UK's ability to set fiscal policy without being answerable to a foreign nation. Especially if they didn't put it to the voters first. Sterling is a UK currency if your no longer part of the UK you really need to be looking for your own. To be honest you only want it for the stability it will offer, most nats used to argue that sterling should be dropped its only because of the woeful state of the euro your all clamouring to keep it.

Steve

 

[chivers67]

I've driven all over Europe from country to country but never been asked to show a passport (since 2001 - except a cursory glance at a Passport entering Switzerland, but not when leaving), or a driving license. Why would you think Scotland will be any different, other than too many Daily Mail stories? As for Wales/N.Ireland, neither of them could realistically afford to break from the union, as they are both heavily subsidised by Westminster (unlike Scotland!). Tax revenues per capita in Wales & N.I. are 25% lower than the UK in general. However, if they were prepared to take the financial hit in order to gain sovereignty, who can say? I do find it rather doubtful that the general public there would go for it though.

I didn't mean that, I meant Scotland will eventually need their own passport and driving licence centers will they not? Eventually Embassy's too unless they still share them with Great Britain? I'm sure Alex Salmond has this covered though in the depths of his mind.

I wouldn't wipe my bum with the Daily mail BTW

 

[Eddzz!!]

Westminster doesn't care about anyone North of Watford never mind the border, they prove that time and again. I believe that 'we' can manage our affairs better ourselves, that we'd be better off in many ways as an independent nation. I honestly don't think I've ever in my life called myself British, I'm a Scot in my heart and in my head so the idea of a split only has good conotations for me.

Please do tell me in what way you'd be "better off" being separate from the UK? Do give me some facts and figures to support that unsubstantiated claim.

I really couldn't give a monkeys whether or not you think Scotland would be better off apart from the UK, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest Scotland's rather rapid demise should it become an independent nation.

 

[Steep]

Please do tell me in what way you'd be "better off" being separate from the UK? Do give me some facts and figures to support that unsubstantiated claim.

I really couldn't give a monkeys whether or not you think Scotland would be better off apart from the UK, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest Scotland's rather rapid demise should it become an independent nation.

I'll show you mine if you show me yours!

 

[Steep]

I think your being a little presumptuous and frankly arrogant, you want the right to determine your own sovereignty but deny us ours.

No one has said anything of the sort, in what way do you think your sovereignty is threatened?

 

[Steep]

I didn't mean that, I meant Scotland will eventually need their own passport and driving licence centers will they not? Eventually Embassy's too unless they still share them with Great Britain? I'm sure Alex Salmond has this covered though in the depths of his mind.

Well of course we will need these things but why do you think it's something we can't do or have? Scotland already has a substantial civil service and it's not as if any of this stuff hasn't been done by every other country in the world.

 

[LCPete]

For me anyway its simple it would be a real shame to split up the UK
I'm not an expert in economics so can't say if the Scottish people would be better off being independent
As I said earlier in the thread I can understand people in Scotland wanting to get away from the lot in London running the country at the moment but to split up the UK is a really big step

 

[chivers67]

Well of course we will need these things but why do you think it's something we can't do or have? Scotland already has a substantial civil service and it's not as if any of this stuff hasn't been done by every other country in the world.

Where have I stated it's something you can't do or have?? I'm simply saying it's something eventually you'll have to do once independent, i'm sure there are lot's of other things that will need to be put in place by both the UK & Scotland if the Yes vote is successful. Incidentally I'm half Scottish; mums a Scot, dad was English. I actually think the Yes vote will be successful which will prove to be awful eventually for all parties involved - who knows though!

 

[Steep]

Where have I stated it's something you can't do or have?? I'm simply saying it's something eventually you'll have to do once independent,

it was this bit made me think that, maybe I'm just too used to seeing 'you can't and/or we won't let you' posts.

I'm sure Alex Salmond has this covered though in the depths of his mind.

 

[jakeblu]

No one has said anything of the sort, in what way do you think your sovereignty is threatened?

Sharing your currency and the economic decisions that entails with a foreign state is exactly that, loss of sovereignty. Like I said in my previous post there was no appetite in this country to join the euro because of the perceived loss of sovereignty despite what at the time was obvious benefits.

I've come to disike posting in this thread because I always seem to come across as negative regarding the independence issues but thats because I am against any type of nationalism. Its the cause of many problems in the world and frankly is why I am a supporter of the european union for all its faults. There is no strength in isolation you have to relenquish some sovereignty to gain power because sovereignty is nothing without power just ask the Ukraine.

Steve

 

[FourRingCircus]

I think your being a little presumptuous and frankly arrogant, you want the right to determine your own sovereignty but deny us ours.

Forgive me Steve if I'm coming across like this, but I've never once suggested anything like denying anyones sovereignty. Meanwhile, I have to put up with daily posts and stories which imply that I should be content with people denying such for me.

Sterling is a UK currency if your no longer part of the UK you really need to be looking for your own. To be honest you only want it for the stability it will offer, most nats used to argue that sterling should be dropped its only because of the woeful state of the euro your all clamouring to keep it.

I don't disagree that we may need to look to our own currency in the longer term, but for the moment, a currency union, or a framework of some sorts, makes the most sense for EVERYBODY. Nobody is suggesting that the Scots should be in a position to tell rUK what they can and can't do with the £. The proposal at present is the most pragmatic way forward in the interests of ALL concerned. Virtually all the international economics experts have concurred with this view. My business deals across many borders but I purchase goods almost exclusively from England and sell about 40% back to England. I have customers in mainland Europe too. The only difference is that we have transaction charges where the € is involved. It would seem counter productive to have these between iScotland & rUK.

As for your view on 'nationalists', you seem to use this as a derogatory term. Do you not see David Cameron, Ed Milliband or Nigel Farage as 'nationalists', for this is indeed what they are. Is there something wrong with having a positive feeling for your own country and wanting to see the best for a nation and its people?

 

[jakeblu]

Forgive me Steve if I'm coming across like this, but I've never once suggested anything like denying anyones sovereignty. Meanwhile, I have to put up with daily posts and stories which imply that I should be content with people denying such for me.


I don't disagree that we may need to look to our own currency in the longer term, but for the moment, a currency union, or a framework of some sorts, makes the most sense for EVERYBODY. Nobody is suggesting that the Scots should be in a position to tell rUK what they can and can't do with the £. The proposal at present is the most pragmatic way forward in the interests of ALL concerned. Virtually all the international economics experts have concurred with this view. My business deals across many borders but I purchase goods almost exclusively from England and sell about 40% back to England. I have customers in mainland Europe too. The only difference is that we have transaction charges where the € is involved. It would seem counter productive to have these between iScotland & rUK.

Your still not addressing the problem that the rUK public would not accept such a union even if there is a perceived benefit to do so and it would be a foolish politician that would go against that.

As for your view on 'nationalists', you seem to use this as a derogatory term. Do you not see David Cameron, Ed Milliband or Nigel Farage as 'nationalists', for this is indeed what they are. Is there something wrong with having a positive feeling for your own country and wanting to see the best for a nation and its people?

Sorry John it wasnt meant in a derogatory manner (nats) is just shorthand, I'll not use it again, although I do believe that nationalists of any persuasion are misguided but thats not what this thread is about.

Steve

 

[Steep]

I've come to disike posting in this thread because I always seem to come across as negative regarding the independence issues but thats because I am against any type of nationalism.

It is a problem I understand, it's hard to give a positive spin to a negative argument.

 

[Steep]

Your still not addressing the problem that the rUK public would not accept such a union even if there is a perceived benefit to do so and it would be a foolish politician that would go against that.

But how do you know that the rUK public would not accept it? right now it's just your opinion, until and unless the rUK public is asked there's no telling what would be acceptable.

 

[Yves Geza]

But how do you know that the rUK public would not accept it? right now it's just your opinion, until and unless the rUK public is asked there's no telling what would be acceptable.

You are hugely underestimating the, frankly, dislike that your Yes campaign is engendering south of the border!

Apart from the resentment that you wish to break up the union but you think it democratic that the 5 million odd of you will tell the 50 million odd of us, which bits you'll take and which bits you'll leave; apart from the Scottish xenophobia towards the rest of the United Kingdom that shows up here and everywhere else when Independence is discussed, there's the political "generosity" of Scotch spirit [no pun!] that you somehow think should be inversely rewarded and reciprocated.

I'm thinking of the fact that you only charge English and Welsh students at Scottish universities while not charging your own children nor other European children - generous - and the fact that Scotland's First Minister plans to continue charging only your southern neighbours. Is that a popular policy up there?

 

[arclight]

You are hugely underestimating the, frankly, dislike that your Yes campaign is engendering south of the border!

Apart from the resentment that you wish to break up the union but you think it democratic that the 5 million odd of you will tell the 50 million odd of us, which bits you'll take and which bits you'll leave; apart from the Scottish xenophobia towards the rest of the United Kingdom that shows up here and everywhere else when Independence is discussed, there's the political "generosity" of Scotch spirit [no pun!] that you somehow think should be inversely rewarded and reciprocated.

I'm thinking of the fact that you only charge English and Welsh students at Scottish universities while not charging your own children nor other European children - generous - and the fact that Scotland's First Minister plans to continue charging only your southern neighbours. Is that a popular policy up there?

I think you are correct, Johnathan. I am a Scot and I detect anti-English sentiments among the nationalists I know. It is ugly and it is embarrassing. As soon as the No vote comes through and all this gets put to bed the better.

 

[Steep]

You are hugely underestimating the, frankly, dislike that your Yes campaign is engendering south of the border!

Apart from the resentment that you wish to break up the union but you think it democratic that the 5 million odd of you will tell the 50 million odd of us, which bits you'll take and which bits you'll leave; apart from the Scottish xenophobia towards the rest of the United Kingdom that shows up here and everywhere else when Independence is discussed, there's the political "generosity" of Scotch spirit [no pun!] that you somehow think should be inversely rewarded and reciprocated.

I'm thinking of the fact that you only charge English and Welsh students at Scottish universities while not charging your own children nor other European children - generous - and the fact that Scotland's First Minister plans to continue charging only your southern neighbours. Is that a popular policy up there?

You're incorrect, no one here has said 'we'll take' anything, negotiation after a yes vote will decide what happens, not anyones political rhetoric (I've already said that anything the pkliticians come out with up until september is rhetoric purely because the negotiation can't start until then. If there's dislike down South it's engendered by what the media report, not what actually goes on up here. I'm sorry that English students cannot get free university places up here but that is the fault of Westminster not the Scottish parliament.

 

[Steep]

I think you are correct, Johnathan. I am a Scot and I detect anti-English sentiments among the nationalists I know. It is ugly and it is embarrassing. As soon as the No vote comes through and all this gets put to bed the better.

I see apparent anti English sentiment in many places, generally it's misplaced anger at Westminster and fuelled by poor reporting in the gutter press. It has no significance whatsoever in real life and plays no part in anything the yes campaign does. Why do so many no camp supporting Scots come across as bitter and negative? Instead of the bitterness try and find some positive aspects of staying in the UK, maybe that way you'll persuade enough people to vote no and get to keep the union.