An Independent Scotland?

[DaveS2]

Well, I have listened to your side of the story John, and the fact that you refer back some 300 years, when Scotland was at war with England, says to me that you are driven by a very strong nationalist desire, as opposed to one of economics and practicality.

Since you whipped our arse at Bannockburn, we have stood shoulder to shoulder through two world wars, and other conflicts before and after.

Nothing wrong with National pride, I,m as proud to be British, as you are to be Scottish, but I consider all Scots to be my British cousins.

There is IMO perhaps one real tangible benefit in Scotland becoming independent, and that is that it might well be able to better protect it's borders, national identity and culture.

Ours has been progressively diluted by unrestricted immigration for decades, and is now pretty much beyond the point of no return. However, I can't say anymore on this, as its now not PC to do so.

BTW, I don't read the Daily Mail, and my opinion of Alex Salmond has evolved from listening to him speak, and not what the newspapers say.

My opinion counts for nothing in this debate, as I am not involved in the voting. Also, at 71 years old, I'm probably not going to be around to see the long-term effects of Scotland becoming independent from the UK, if indeed it does break away.

That said, if I were a gambling man, which I'm not, I would put my money on Scotland remaining part of the UK.

It has been a very interesting discussion, and has been said, one that has remained amicable, which is just how it should be.

I would love to continue the discussion with you John, over a glass of Malt, although I think we would part without agreeing, but still mates.

Dave

 

[POAH]

Except of course it is backed by the Bank of England. You can have the pound if you so wish but it will be a Scottish pound supported by Scottish bank and open to the vagaries of the currency markets. Not a very hospitable place for a fledgling currency.

Steve

you mean like we have the now - Scottish bank notes are not legal south of the border like wise English notes are not legal north of the border. the two banks have an agreement in place to exchange.

 

[jakeblu]

Sorry if I was unclear Steve, but I beg to differ. Scotland CAN use the (BoE) £ sterling as it's currency without any intervention from rUK. This will be THE SAME £ Sterling as you woiuld have in your pocket in the rUK. My point is that nobody can stop us using a fully tradeable currency (£, Euro, $, Yen) if we wish to do so unilaterally. However, it is better for all (north and south) to do this within a framework of co-operation.

Sorry John that's not gonna happen. Osbourne and co should have kept there noses out of it the death knell for Scotland using the pound was struck by Nick MacPherson and Mark Carney neither of whom have any political affiliation. There will be no sterling for an independent Scotland you really do need to be preparing for that now because, yes, you could continue to use the pound unilaterally but your banks would not be able to turn to the BofE for support and I seriously doubt that the financial & industrial sector in Scotland would find that acceptable.

Steve

 

[jakeblu]

you mean like we have the now - Scottish bank notes are not legal south of the border like wise English notes are not legal north of the border. the two banks have an agreement in place to exchange.

No, thats not how it is now, all banks including Scottish ones are supported by the BofE. A respected and trusted financial institution. Thats why SNP want to keep Sterling, the path ahead is fraught without it.

Steve

 

[jakeblu]

Ours has been progressively diluted by unrestricted immigration for decades, and is now pretty much beyond the point of no return. However, I can't say anymore on this, as its now not PC to do so.

Steve

 

[Dave *]

you mean like we have the now - Scottish bank notes are not legal south of the border like wise English notes are not legal north of the border. the two banks have an agreement in place to exchange.

While the first part is correct the agreement to exchange isn't quite right.

The Scottish banks have the amount of their Scottish notes lodged with the B of E (in English sterling) as surety for the B of E to guarantee Scottish notes.

24. Are Scottish & Northern Ireland notes "legal tender"?

In short ‘No’ these notes are not "legal tender"; furthermore, Bank of England notes are only legal tender in England and Wales. Legal tender has, however, a very narrow technical meaning in relation to the settlement of debt. If a debtor pays in legal tender the exact amount he/she owes under the terms of a contract (and in accordance with its terms), or pays this amount into court, he/she has good defence in law if he/she is sued for non-payment of the debt.

In ordinary everyday transactions, the term "legal tender" in its purest sense need not govern a note's acceptability in transactions.

The acceptability of a Scottish or Northern Ireland note as a means of payment is essentially a matter for agreement between the parties involved. If both parties are in agreement, Scottish and Northern Ireland notes can be used in England and Wales.

Holders of genuine Scottish and Northern Ireland notes are provided with a level of protection similar to that provided to holders of Bank of England notes.

This is because the issuing banks must back their note issue using a combination of Bank of England notes, UK coin and funds in an interest bearing bank account at the Bank of England.

More information on these arrangements can be found at
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/
scottish_northernireland.aspx

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/faqs.aspx#16

 

[DaveS2]

Quote: "Ours has been progressively diluted by unrestricted immigration for decades, and is now pretty much beyond the point of no return. However, I can't say anymore on this, as its now not PC to do so."

Steve, your video clip refers mainly to jobs, whereas I was referring to national identity and culture. When I visit my childhood and teenage roots in London, I no longer recognise it. However, we should not pursue this discussion as it can be VERY controversial, and as such, is best left alone.

Dave

 

[GeeJay57]

"When I visit my childhood and teenage roots in London, I no longer recognise it."

This is not restricted to London and changes are not necessarily caused by issues that are non-pc. I grew up in rural Oxfordshire, the changes to English rural life over the last fifty-years are simply staggering and are rarely discussed or even considered to be worthy of discussion. Railways ripped out, bus services cut, schools closed, farms and local produce lost, local markets lost, churches lost, libraries closed, roads decaying, village communities turned into commuter land dormitories, increased crime etc... Meanwhile, the countryside is seen as some kind of free playground for outdoor activities.... I could go on...

Returning to topic, I see the home nations as brothers. We squabble and argue amongst ourselves, but join together when the going gets tough. This has been illustrated many many times.

The vote for an independent Scotland will go whichever way it goes.

FWIW I hope that Scotland remains part of the UK, because I think that is the best way forward for all.

North Sea oil production will IMHO cease within the next 50-years (and I'm deliberately being optimistic). We are already importing oil, oil products, gas and electricity from Europe and afar. I believe that we run the risk of being below critical mass if the UK becomes fragmented.

It's possible to argue that if Scotland leaves the UK, it will need to reapply for EU membership as it would be a new independent entity. It could also be argued that the UK would have to do the same thing as it could hardly be argued that the UK is the same without Scotland.

Scottish independence would be game changing, otherwise why do it in the first place. I only hope that should it come about, the change is genuinely worth it and not simply some kind of hollow victory for the nationalists.

 

[FourRingCircus]

Scottish independence would be game changing, otherwise why do it in the first place. I only hope that should it come about, the change is genuinely worth it and not simply some kind of hollow victory for the nationalists.

A lot of sensible words there Glenn. Here is another way of looking at it, which I would proffer represent reasons for people in rUK, who feel the way you do, to support and encourage the Scottish quest for independence.

The UK is broken - no exaggeration! Everywhere that does not represent a profit opportunity for the London elite is given secondary consideration. The floods in Somerset being a prime example of this. It probably wasn't reported south of the border, but in response to Camerons 'lovebombing' from the podium of an empty London stadium, Alex Salmond retorted that he (Cameron) should be more concerned about getting his 'wellies' on and visiting his people, than trying to influence a vote that he said he has nothing to do with. So, the following day, we see 'call me Dave' up to his ankles in stinky water outside of the M25.

Now, unless the political tree is shaken, nothing will change. I'd go so far as to suggest that things are only going to get worse for all. So, who is going to shake the tree? The 2015 general election won't alter anything for the better - they are all as bad as each other. Perhaps UKIP stand a slim chance of altering the landscape, but I'd ventrue that there is a much greater chance of a Scottish Yes vote than there is of significant UKIP success at a general election. Therefore, its perfectly reasonable to suggest that the ONLY tree-shaking opportunity for the whole of the UK is happening in seven months time. Meanwhile, Westminster is trying everything they can to prevent the apples from falling. They say that it is a matter for Scotland only, but did you know that the Better Together campaign is being entirely funded by the tories and thier millionaire buddies? Does this not surprise anyone, especially when you find a discredited ex-labour chancellor at the head of that campaign. I know a turd by it's stench and this Better Together campaign positively reeks of it. They are not looking out for the interests of a country which returns only 1 tory MP out of 59 MP's from Scotland. They are looking after themselves - period.

Mark my words, if the Scottish independence vote fails, the whole of the UK (with Scotland in it) will be in for an extended period (decades) of disenchantment and disillusion. The only way to see political reform is for rUK to actively support (& help?) Scotland in its quest.

A final point: How many people across the UK actually understand enough about the ramifications of a currency union? Yet, we have a massive outpouring of (English) sentiment that Scotland can't have the £. However, I wonder how many of these people have the slightest comprehension of what it could mean for them, if Scotland didn't use the pound. My point is that the sheep are following Osbornes approach for their own perceived nationalistic reasons - purely becasue of what the towel-folder has said (along with Balls and Alexander) in an apparent united front. Does nobody find this all to be a bit odd? There are many academic economic comentators (who do actually know what they are talking about) have stated that Osbornes stance is a bizarre form of brinkmanship bordering on political and economic insanity.

 

[GeeJay57]

Thanks for the hat-tip John.

I think there is a lot we can agree on, not least of which politicians generally seem to be in it for themselves. I actually think that anyone that volunteers to be a politician should be forever barred from becoming one!

Westminster took little notice of the flooding in England until the Thames valley flooded. It seems they hadn't even heard of the Somerset levels and have certainly shown little concern for sever flooding in other regional parts of the UK in the past. That said, in fairness to Westminster and the EA, the sequence of rain storms we've experienced this winter is unprecedented. A bit of dredging here and there will have made no difference and in any case has other issues. Plus any capital spending on flood defences for a 1:100 year event will always take a back seat to spends on other priorities.

Coming back to topic, I for one don't know enough about the workings of currency systems to understand whether an independent Scotland could continue to use sterling as its currency. It does to me seem incongruous that an independent nation would wish to use the currency of the nation it just secured independence from. I can see adopting the Euro, but not the pound.

I actually think it's positive that there is sufficient political interest in Scotland for the issue of independence to be debated. In England, we can't even have a serious debate about HS2, which to me seems to be a very likely to turn into a pale four legged animal that has big ears, thick skin, tusks and a long trunk..

 

[Dave *]

I actually think it's positive that there is sufficient political interest in Scotland for the issue of independence to be debated. In England, we can't even have a serious debate about HS2, which to me seems to be a very likely to turn into a pale four legged animal that has big ears, thick skin, tusks and a long trunk..

Far too much money to be made by top Tories and their supporters for any spotlight to be allowed to focus on HS2.

 

[arclight]

Thanks for the hat-tip John.

I think there is a lot we can agree on, not least of which politicians generally seem to be in it for themselves. I actually think that anyone that volunteers to be a politician should be forever barred from becoming one! etc.

.

That will always be the bottom line whenever one set of politicians is exchanged for another. It is a certainty.

 

[tijuana taxi]

If Scotland were independent we could stop messing about having to change the clocks back and forth in England

The reason given for the change always concerns the far north, maybe even have their own time zone, Europe does and thats nearer to me than Scotland

I am well aware that there is also a disdain for Westminster outside of the London bubble.

I was born and lived in the east end for forty years, believe me no love for Westminster there especially the tories and their glory seeking compatriots.

 

[FourRingCircus]

I was born and lived in the east end for forty years, believe me no love for Westminster there especially the tories and their glory seeking compatriots.

For contrast: I was born in England, I thought MaggieT was the best thing that ever happened to the UK and I'm naturally (financially) orientated towards the right wing. However, the vote in September is THE most important (political) thing I can do in my life and nothing on the planet would make me do anything but put a cross in the YES box!

 

[DaveS2]

I like to think that I have lived a fairly comfortable middle class life, even now in retirement, with very good company pension, and not owing a penny to anyone. However, I have never voted Tory, and nor will I.

The other lot have shown that they are little better at managing the country, and the UK is no longer the UK that I once knew and loved, so my vote is now firmly in the UKIP camp. Unfortunately, they will never be strong enough to become the governing party, but voting for them just makes me feel better.

If I was younger, I would emigrate to Australia, along with the tens of thousand of other Brits, that decided that enough was enough.

I suppose I could say that I am in the 'twilight years' of my life now, but I do fear for the future of my grandchildren, and even my middle aged children.

So yes, I can understand the distain that many Scots have for Westminster, but I still think the UK should remain as a single union. As I said earlier, "together we stand, divided we fall". However, the Scottish people will choose, by a majority vote, what they think is right for them, and the rest the UK, must respect whatever decision they reach.

Dave

 

[Yves Geza]

As a London domiciled small business owner, I was going to ask if anyone could tell me what benefit Currency Union could possibly provide the remainder of the United Kingdom if we were going to be required to stand guarantor for a separate young country with an, apparently hugely optimistic, tax regime over which we had no control?

Today, however my question has changed. Alex Salmond has announced that Plan B is for an independent Scotland to keep the pound as a client state with absolutely no Scottish control over monetary policy and so with all the risks it entails for the North Britons - and which the world's nasty, unsentimental financial markets would undoubtedly ensure happened!

The only interpretation I can place on the announcement is that Salmond is, as ever, being a shrewd political operator - and that's all he is - and is working quietly to ensure he loses the referendum. Thus he can remain a popular demagogue and anti-Westminister protestor, albeit with the Joel Barnett safety net, and not have to face the enormous difficulties of actually having to run a small country for which he'd made inadequate planning anyway.

Does anyone agree?

 

[trencheel303]

Up until now I've not known where to stand on the independence debate, but this recent farce about the pound and about how we'd better not secede actually makes me want to vote independence, just to stick it to Cameron and his Cronies. Just a few days prior to that speech Cameron was playing it nicey nicey up here in Scotland. They've obviously realised we've got real potential in North Sea Oil and are realising if we secede we might not let them have it. Don't be fooled, England don't want us to stay for the greater good, they want us to stay because it works out better for them.

The other lot have shown that they are little better at managing the country, and the UK is no longer the UK that I once knew and loved, so my vote is now firmly in the UKIP camp. Unfortunately, they will never be strong enough to become the governing party, but voting for them just makes me feel better.

It concerns me that many people now seem to be favouring UKIP as an almost knee jerk reaction. Some of their "policies" rather concern me to say the least and I think they're banking on this train of thought to be in with a chance, then we might as well undo some 30 odd + years of liberation.

 

[DaveS2]

It concerns me that many people now seem to be favouring UKIP as an almost knee jerk reaction. Some of their "policies" rather concern me to say the least and I think they're banking on this train of thought to be in with a chance, then we might as well undo some 30 odd + years of liberation.

At 71 years of age, I don't do 'knee jerk' reactions, and yes some of the UKIP policies aren't to my taste either, but as things are with this country now, to me they appear to be the lesser of the three evils. I'm not including the Lib Dems, as they will side with whoever suits them at the time.

There isn't a chance in hell, that UKIP will ever become the governing party, but if they have enough MPs, that might just be able to give the others a decent kick up the arse.

Like many others here, I lost family members in two world wars, who fought and died for Britain. If they are looking down on us now, they must be soul destroyed to see what has happened to this country. 30 odd years of liberation, I don't think I could call it that.

Dave

 

[Yves Geza]

At 71 years of age, I don't do 'knee jerk' reactions, and yes some of the UKIP policies aren't to my taste either ...

May I suggest UKIP are the wrong people ... asking the right questions!

 

[DaveS2]

May I suggest UKIP are the wrong people ... asking the right questions!

That may well be the case Jonathan.

The problem is, nobody else is asking them, and the government as sure as hell, aren't listening to the people.

Dave

 

[GeeJay57]

They've obviously realised we've got real potential in North Sea Oil...

I'm sorry to say that North Sea oil is pretty much a busted flush. It's all but gone.

 

[Steep]

I'm sorry to say that North Sea oil is pretty much a busted flush. It's all but gone.

Not nearly as gone as you seem to think, it's a finite resource certainly but decades worth is still waiting to be pumped up. Technology has advanced to the stage where it's viable to access oil and gas that couldn't be reached twenty years go, they're even drilling from the shore miles out to sea now which is far cheaper to do.

 

[Yves Geza]

That may well be the case Jonathan.

The problem is, nobody else is asking them, and the government as sure as hell, aren't listening to the people.

Dave

I suspect we've got a lot of points of agreement, Dave, but maybe this isn't the place!

We need to give this thread back to those other swivel eyed loons, from North of the Border

 

[DaveS2]

On the news tonight, time-scale was quoted as being something like 40 years.

Dave

 

[DaveS2]

I suspect we've got a lot of points of agreement, Dave, but maybe this isn't the place!

Dave

 

[trencheel303]

At 71 years of age, I don't do 'knee jerk' reactions, and yes some of the UKIP policies aren't to my taste either, but as things are with this country now, to me they appear to be the lesser of the three evils. I'm not including the Lib Dems, as they will side with whoever suits them at the time.

There isn't a chance in hell, that UKIP will ever become the governing party, but if they have enough MPs, that might just be able to give the others a decent kick up the arse.

Like many others here, I lost family members in two world wars, who fought and died for Britain. If they are looking down on us now, they must be soul destroyed to see what has happened to this country. 30 odd years of liberation, I don't think I could call it that.

Dave

Well I think we might be looking at it from different angles... certainly the homophobic and racist policies (to just tip the iceberg) of the UKIP don't seem "lesser of three evils" to me. As a heterosexual white male (I'm going out on a limb here but I'll bet my left leg this assumption of you is right) I can guess none of these would bother or affect you directly which is why you may not see the fuss I'm making over it. This is not a personal attack, merely an observation.

Personally I find it quite genuinely alarming that parties like the UKIP are even gaining traction, and is one of the reasons why I will vote next term, as I have horrible feelings that such regimes if voted in could go the way Russia is now... and for various reasons I would not come out of such a regime very well at all, so on a personal level it alarms me.

I'm sorry to say that North Sea oil is pretty much a busted flush. It's all but gone.

Yes as suggested already it was only on the news today that they reckon there's 40-50 years of it left.

 

[GeeJay57]

Not nearly as gone as you seem to think, it's a finite resource certainly but decades worth is still waiting to be pumped up. Technology has advanced to the stage where it's viable to access oil and gas that couldn't be reached twenty years go, they're even drilling from the shore miles out to sea now which is far cheaper to do.

You can put as many straws into a pint of beer as you want to, but there's still only a pint of beer.

Well, let's hope you're right and I'm wrong. I'm certainly happy to be wrong. Maybe the immigration policies of an independent and prosperous Scotland would allow applicants from Old Blighty?

 

[DaveS2]

As a heterosexual white male (I'm going out on a limb here but I'll bet my left leg this assumption of you is right) I can guess none of these would bother or affect you directly which is why you may not see the fuss I'm making over it. This is not a personal attack, merely an observation.

Not seen as personal attack at all . You are absolutely correct, those issue have no bearing on me personally, but I did say that some of the UKIP policies are not to my taste, albeit I wasn't specific.

However, as Jonathan quite rightly said, they are asking some of the right questions. The questions that the British public have been asking for some time, and to which the government only pay lip-service, or ignore all together.

Anyway, we digress here, and as Jonathan suggested, we should return the 'thread' to the 'Independence for Scotland' discussion.

Dave

 

[Steep]

You can put as many straws into a pint of beer as you want to, but there's still only a pint of beer.

The analogy only works if you know for sure what reserves you have. On the figures of 20 odd years ago the oil should be starting to run out now but as I said above better drilling methods and technology means that access to previously unreachable reserves has extended the useful life of the North Sea by a considerable amount.

 

[GeeJay57]

The analogy only works if you know for sure what reserves you have. On the figures of 20 odd years ago the oil should be starting to run out now but as I said above better drilling methods and technology means that access to previously unreachable reserves has extended the useful life of the North Sea by a considerable amount.

Good, glad to here it. We will all need fossil fuels for quite some time to come, handy if we still have some on ( y )our doorstep.

 

[DaveS2]

Ah, but if Scotland goes independent from the rest of the UK, the oil and gas won't be on "our" doorstep, but on Scotland's doorstep, and Alex Salmond is very well aware of that!!

Dave

 

[FourRingCircus]

better drilling methods and technology means that access to previously unreachable reserves has extended the useful life of the North Sea by a considerable amount.

And that's just the north sea. There are believed to be a wealth of reserves to the west of Scotland, but Westminster has legislated against even looking for it for many years, citing Trident submarine operations as the reason. I'll wager my left arm that their main reason is a second oil boom on the west would fuel further desire for independence. After all, they have a track record in this sort of tactic (McCrone Report).

 

[arclight]

If Scotland were independent we could stop messing about having to change the clocks back and forth in England

The reason given for the change always concerns the far north, maybe even have their own time zone, Europe does and thats nearer to me than Scotland

.

Is the time zone really of great importance ? Sounds like trivia to me.

 

[HuntingMartians]

you mean like we have the now - Scottish bank notes are not legal south of the border like wise English notes are not legal north of the border. the two banks have an agreement in place to exchange.

Aren't bank notes printed by the private banks in Scotland effectively a cheque?
I didn't think there was such a thing as English notes. I thought the notes printed by the Bank of England, the central Bank of the U.K, were just Sterling £?
So in effect there is no scottish £ and no english £ just sterling?

 

[GeeJay57]

Ah, but if Scotland goes independent from the rest of the UK, the oil and gas won't be on "our" doorstep, but on Scotland's doorstep, and Alex Salmond is very well aware of that!!

Dave

Hence the 'y' in brackets..

Sorry, didn't pick up your location.. For sure it would be on Scotland's doorstep irrespective of whether it is an independent country or not.

 

[DaveS2]

Ah, didn't see the 'y' Glenn, call it a 'senior moment'

Dave

 

[DaveS2]

Quote (GeeJay57): Sorry, didn't pick up your location.. For sure it would be on Scotland's doorstep irrespective of whether it is an independent country or not.

I meant "our" as in England and Wales.

Dave

 

[arclight]

At 71 years of age, I don't do 'knee jerk' reactions, and yes some of the UKIP policies aren't to my taste either, but as things are with this country now, to me they appear to be the lesser of the three evils. I'm not including the Lib Dems, as they will side with whoever suits them at the time.

There isn't a chance in hell, that UKIP will ever become the governing party, but if they have enough MPs, that might just be able to give the others a decent kick up the arse.

Like many others here, I lost family members in two world wars, who fought and died for Britain. If they are looking down on us now, they must be soul destroyed to see what has happened to this country. 30 odd years of liberation, I don't think I could call it that.

Dave[/I]

I am a few years years short of your age, Dave and a Scot. I have to agree with you 100%.
Furthermore, my impression formed by speaking with many folk, is that they have no truck with independence whatsoever. The Scottish gov (SNP) have actually performed better than the other 2 dodgepots largely because they have frozen council tax for several years which is a major relief to many. However, that is well short of trusting them withcomplete control of Scotland and separating from the UK. There is much wrong with the UK and it being welded to Europe, but breaking it up is illogical.

The main problem with the UK is that it is a parliamentary democracy as opposed to a true democracy. Breaking it up will not correct that.

 

[DaveS2]

The main problem with the UK is that it is a parliamentary democracy as opposed to a true democracy. Breaking it up will not correct that.

I think that sums it up very nicely indeed.

Dave

 

[GeeJay57]

I am a few years years short of your age, Dave and a Scot. I have to agree with you 100%.
Furthermore, my impression formed by speaking with many folk, is that they have no truck with independence whatsoever. The Scottish gov (SNP) have actually performed better than the other 2 dodgepots largely because they have frozen council tax for several years which is a major relief to many. However, that is well short of trusting them withcomplete control of Scotland and separating from the UK. There is much wrong with the UK and it being welded to Europe, but breaking it up is illogical.

The main problem with the UK is that it is a parliamentary democracy as opposed to a true democracy. Breaking it up will not correct that.

Unfortunately democracy is a freedom wasted on the disinterested majority..

I think it should be compulsory to cast a vote even if that means ticking an abstention box on the voting slip. As it stands less than half the eligible poll can actually be bothered to turn out.

Politicians need to be doing much much more to engage with the people they represent..