Beginner Am I expecting too much from my camera? Or still making beginner mistakes .

gothgirl

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So due to the large amount of low light shooting of moving subjects that I am doing , I finally saved up and took the plunge and invested in the canon 17-55 f/2.8 to go with my 60D , this was a big thing for me , and the most money I have ever spent on something for myself.

Problem is I'm still getting very noisy images in low light , am I now expecting too much of my camera body , trying to push it past its limitations or am I still making correctable mistakes when shooting ?

Here is a photo taken today , in dim light around 4pm , with the full exif .






The only thing I did not add was exposure comp , and the exposure is correct for the lighting I had , but the image is noisy , far too noisy for my peace of mind , it's ok when I'm taking photos of my own animals but I would not be happy with this result at all if I were shooting for someone else .




Would adding exposure comp in camera have made a big difference to the ISO level and therefore the overall noise ?

I cannot shoot less than 1/100 when shooting horses , especially ones that tend to fidget and ideally I'd like more speed , I also would have liked my monopod but a lot of horses have taken a dislike to me brandishing the "big long scary stick thing" so that's not an option.

What would you have changed , given these settings to improve the overall image noise?
 
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Picture was taken at 4pm on a dull November day - that's the problem, that's why you had to shoot at ISO3200. If there's under-exposure too, that will increase noise. Just guessing, but I think you could add at least one stop exposure to that without anything getting over-exposed.

Other comments: I would have used a dash of fill-in flash, just a little, that would have lifted the image enormously without being at all obvious. Suggest you also move back and zoom in tighter, to exclude that pole and the red jumps in the background. But basically, don't shoot in the dark! ;)
 
All I can say is that my 50D (prior to yours) was absolutely terrible at anything over ISO 800. I'd use 1600 if I was pushed but anything higher was worse than these look. Light is light unfortunately and if you haven't got any, you're relying on the lowest shutter speed and the widest aperture you can manage. With moving subjects you don't have the luxury of low shutter, and unless you go prime, you're unlikely to get much wider than f2.8. The lens helps with the wide aperture, but unless you get another two stops (an f1.4 lens in the above example) to bring the ISO down to (say) 800 that will be a lot more expense for not much improvement. Flash is another thing to consider which - if used properly - will resolve the problem, but if it's horse jumping or something like that it might be an issue having a bulb go off...

Another alternative is a camera that performs well in low light. I know my 50D was renowned for being terrible, not sure about the 60D though.

Edit to add: Interesting resource here : http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E60D/E60DIMAGING.HTM - read down to noise. It's probably worth considering what you're doing with the images. PP software can help with noise and if they're for internet use it'd probably be fine. Large A3+ prints though may show the issues. Smaller would probably be ok.
 
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Tough one, it is very noisy, high iso is killing you here. I am not familiar with the canon 60 D so i don't know how far you can reasonably expect to push it, but 3200 is apparently too far. 1600 is probably as far as you should push it with 800 being better again. Shutter speed will obviously need to drop but with an 17-55mm you shouldn't have any real trouble hand holding it at slower speeds. I get that the horses can be skittish and no doubt you will get some movement sometimes, but if you take plenty of shots then chances are you will get some sharp results. Practice to see how slow you can go with the shutter speed and still get sharp shots with an inanimate object, then you will know what your lower limit is. Then its down to the horses if there is movement not you.
I would also underexpose and try to lift in pp
I cant be of any real help as i don't know anything about your camera.
Good luck
Derek
 
I think you would be asking a lot from most crop senor cameras. It's pretty dark at 4pm at this time of year (especially when it's cloudy).
Obviously flash would be a bit of a no no (although my horses aren't too fussed by it), i don't think a mono or tripod would make any difference as your minimum SS is 1/100 which at 35mm is plenty fast enough, a tripod or mono would only allow you to slow down the SS to allow you a lower iso.
Maybe move the horse to a lit area or continuous lighting may help.
 
<snip>

I would also underexpose and try to lift in pp <snip>


That will increase noise significantly.

Flash would be my first choice, and contrary to popular belief it doesn't usually spook horses. In my limited experience, they've been a bit shy of my flash umbrella and click of the shutter at first, but not the flash. The camera's pop-up flash is actually quite good for this. You don't need much light and adjusting flash vs ambient light balance is easy.

The least noise is when the sensor is loaded to the max with light - known as ETTR, or Expose To The Right (of the histogram) technique. Google it. Use blinkies (highlight over-exposure warning) to set the exposure limit. So reduce ISO and drop the shutter speed as low as you dare.

Your lens has very good image stabilisation so that will help with camera shake, and there will be many moments when even a skittish horse is still. Make sure you capture that by shooting lots, in continuous drive mode. Also, when you get to your hand-holding limit, there is great safety in numbers. Again, if you shoot in continuous mode (smoother than stabbing the shutter release multiple times) and rattle off half a dozen images, you'll typically find a couple will be badly blurred, a couple that are not too bad, and one or two will actually be remarkably sharp. Unfortunately, you can't really use flash and continuous shooting mode at the same time, as the flash won't recharge in time.
 
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If you're prepared to do the learning, specialised noise reduction software (such as Neat Image) can be used instead of your camera's or usual editor's default noise reduction to gain an extra stop or two's worth of detail etc.. To make best use of it you must turn your camera's noise reduction right off. That may only be possible in RAW.

You might find an f1.4 or f1.8 prime of appropriate length worth getting for these dim winter shots.
 
I have DXO which does a pretty good job of noise correction , better than Lightroom anyway , but I would rather improve my Photography , than my post processing .
 
Yes and Yes.
Sorry (read on at your peril) :)
But you're expecting a lot from the camera / situation and that's partly a beginner mistake.

You're stretching the capability of the kit, but if you want to improve what you should be stretching is you.

So arrange shoots around making good images, rather than taking pictures in crap light in ill conceived situations.

To be fair, it's a rookie mistake to think you should shoot around your clients schedule (assumption), but if you don't have light to add, you have to schedule for light and shoot somewhere attractive. If you want 'professional results' you need a professional attitude to taking control.

If I'm honest, the image noise is insignificant, it's a bad shot in bad light with a bad background, why would the noise be an issue?

Look at horse images you really like and try to recreate those, push yourself, even if it means limiting yourself to images you have the gear to achieve.
 
With low light/dark scenes ETTR (maxing exposure) can help... but I'm not sure how you would get there. A 35mm prime would allow it, or allow ~ 1stop less ISO, either will give similar result (camera dependent, you'd have to try both).

My best suggestion here would be to reduce the SS to your minimum and shoot in small bursts... You could use the lower SS to ETTR, or lower the ISO (similar results/experiment).
BTW, most of that is chroma (color) noise which can usually be reduced quite aggressively before it starts affecting detail/sharpness. I always reduce chroma noise before luminance noise. And for most uses judging noise at ~50% zoom is more appropriate.
 
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The image is noisy, not the worst I've ever seen, but still noisy. When I had a 60D, I found the noise beyond ISO 1600 to be horrid, which is one reason I upgraded my camera body. While I was using the 60D, I tended to use my 50mm prime in low light situations so that I could bring the ISO down.
Clearly having just spent lots of money on the 17-55mm you don't want to go spending more, but there is one (similar crop sensor zoom) lens that will give you more light, the Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 Art, which is apparently brilliant and will get more light into the sensor. But late afternoon on a November day is your killer here.
Maybe this was a test shot or the only time you could make it (ie after work) and not for a "client", but try getting yourself out during better weather, it'll give you a better chance to see what you can capture with your gear. Bad light is just that, bad light. That image above looks very flat and dull, it needs better light to give it punch. So even if you don't want to use flash, you could go down the route of an LED light panel for a constant light source. A bit of direct light on the house, drop the ISO, let the background go darker, then the subject/horse will stand out more.
Try out the lens in a few different situations before deciding what to do. Try getting more light (in the right place) by trying different times of day, different positions, try using a big white reflector (a big bit of white foam board would work) to bounce the available light onto the subject, borrow a big light.
Good luck.
 
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The other thing which I'm not sure has been said is that cropping a high ISO image is a recipe for disaster, get the framing right in the first place to avoid having to.

As has been said, you are pushing the limits of your kit but at the same time you are not maximising your chances either. Being a photographer isn't just about knowing settings, it is about knowing when to take a photo.
 
And for most uses judging noise at ~50% zoom is more appropriate.
This is hugely important.

That 'noisy' picture you posted was at 1:1 magnification. You're looking at every single pixel. But are you using every single pixel in your final output? Only if you're printing at 18" x 12" or larger. And even then, it's perhaps questionable how visible the noise will be at ~300 pixels per inch compared with ~100 pixels per inch on your computer monitor.
 
If its anything like the 7D I owned be careful not to underexpose, when I did the noise worsened considerably even at low ISO's
 
If you want to shoot at ISO3200 I'd get a camera that's known for low noise at high ISO's.

Nikon D750 should do the trick.

I don't know of any Canons that can match that at high ISO's.

Canon shooters feel free to correct me if I'm wrong there.
 
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If you want to shoot at ISO3200 I'd get a camera that's known for low noise at high ISO's.

Nikon D750 should do the trick.

I don't know of any Canons that can match that at high ISO's.

Canon shooters feel free to correct me if I'm wrong there.

I finally saved up and took the plunge and invested in the canon 17-55 f/2.8 to go with my 60D , this was a big thing for me , and the most money I have ever spent on something for myself.
Highly unlikely the OP will spring over a grand for a new camera and then another big chunk on a lens to go with it. Think she was more looking for help on how to maximize performance from her existing gear
 
There's also amp noise to bear in mind which will effect your choice on exposure.

Without trying to start a huge debate, my understanding is that Canon sensors tend to have amp noise which results in banding when shadows are pushed so with a Canon you're better off using the ETTR method mentioned above. With modern Nikons it's the opposite, you can pump the shadows as much as you like so can easily correct for under exposure without toooooo much extra noise.
 
As others have said above, "bad light is bad light". You can't make something out of nothing. You can increase the exposure in pp but you're not really bringing out anything that wasn't there at the time.
You either light your subject or shoot at a better time of day.
Btw I've read good reviews about that lens of yours and don't think it is a waste of money.
 
Might have helped if horse was on grass due to background being dark focus would be trying to lighten the scene so introducing noise.
 
I finally saved up and took the plunge and invested in the canon 17-55 f/2.8 to go with my 60D , this was a big thing for me , and the most money I have ever spent on something for myself.
Quit now and sell your gear while you can, it only gets worse, next'll be a better body, then well you will need even more expensive lenses to get the most from the better body, then you will need a full-frame body to get the most from the lenses, then filters, tripods, lighting; by the end you will have sold the horse to feed the Gear Aquision Syndrome. :D
 
If you want to shoot at ISO3200 I'd get a camera that's known for low noise at high ISO's.

Nikon D750 should do the trick.

I don't know of any Canons that can match that at high ISO's.

Canon shooters feel free to correct me if I'm wrong there.
Well, the 5D Mk IV and the 1DX Mk II are better at high ISOs, if you believe that the DXO test scores are meaningful.
But none of this is relevant to what the OP wants to know.
 
And for most uses judging noise at ~50% zoom is more appropriate.
This is hugely important.

That 'noisy' picture you posted was at 1:1 magnification. You're looking at every single pixel. But are you using every single pixel in your final output? Only if you're printing at 18" x 12" or larger. And even then, it's perhaps questionable how visible the noise will be at ~300 pixels per inch compared with ~100 pixels per inch on your computer monitor.
A bit more on this.

A couple of years ago my sister was going on a Northen Lights trip, and wanted to know how high she could push the ISO on her camera before the noise became unacceptable. She took a number of test shots at different ISO settings, and we looked at them at different magnifications to judge which we thought were acceptable. Her camera is a Canon 650D, so not entirely dissimilar to your 60D; it's a newer model, but lower spec. It has an 18MP crop sensor, not identical to the 60D, and from what I've read slightly inferior to the 60D.

Anyway, our conclusions were:
  • large prints - view at 100% magnification - acceptable up to ISO 800
  • small prints (eg A4) - view at 50% magnification - acceptable up to ISO 1200-1600
  • full screen view - view at 33% magnification - acceptable up to ISO 1600
  • online / web use - view at 20% magnification - acceptable up to ISO 1600-2500
Obviously "acceptable" is subjective and different people will have different quality standards; plus the nature of the subject may have an influence. And of course your sensor is a bit different. But hopefully this will show you the general kind of results you might expect, with perhaps 1½ stops difference between what is acceptable for large prints and what is acceptable for online use.
 
I would imagine the 60D would do better than that at 3200. It looks like it was a bit underexposed and pushed exposure in post processing. Even more modern sensors will show noise in those circumstances. I'd suggest getting the exposure correct in camera by dropping the shutter speed, trusting the horse not to move and trusting the IS. But you'll never get the detail you're looking for if the light is crap and you've probably got the crappiest light possible there.
 
I have taken shots at 30 with the Canon 350d and used Neat Image and got excellent results and also the same with my other cameras.

I would recommend you download the demo version and make your own profiles and then start experimenting with it.

I have also taken a look at the noise levels at 3200 ISO on dpreview's page and they seem no worse than my 1Ds II and I certainly don't worry about pushing that.

Personally I think the horse picture is very good and could be turned into quite a nice pic with a bit of PP (or more)

I'll try to look out a few pics of mine when I get a chance, but don't worry abut your lens or camera I think they're both fine and can certainly deliver excellent results.

I've actually gone back more to using a 40D I bought on here and that's older than yours and "only"(!) 8MP yet still gives me very good results.
 
I have a nikon so dont suffer noise at all!!!:nikon: only joking

just started to read this thread at it is very informative ,so thanks to all who have answered ant Gothgirl for bieng OP
 
Am I expecting too much from my camera? Or still making beginner mistakes .

Both.



Critiquing the picture, my first ration is the horse' 'pose', just looks unnatural. It's certainly not a flattering stance, probably exaggerated by the angle. Then the setting itself isn't great. The lighting is rather poor and flat. As Phil mentioned, the red, I don't know cones? Jumps, in the frame are distracting. Background is confused; the tree-line, is neither rendered o provide context nor taken out of focus to emphasis your subject.

This starts to make 'sense' of what's going on.



Immediate reaction to this is "Ah! Looks more natural there! It's the 'rope'" (Been thirty five years since I put a saddle on a horse, so forgive me I have forgotten the technical terms!)
BUT, in the display picture, you have cloned out the rope, which is actually a 'contextual element'. It I adding 'something' to the picture, by way of explaining why the horse is standing the way they are. It isn't just 'clutter' making the photo more confusing or messy... ironically, the red things center left are messy and confusing, and adding nothing to the photo, BUT... you left them 'in'.

And STILL in neither pic is 'noise' particularly noticeable.



Now, presumably at the pixel-peeping resolution you are viewing to clone out the rope it is.....

Which begs a conclusion; you are putting an awful lot of importance on the camera, and expecting that to do so much of the work for you, and then more in post-process, using that to try and make your capture 'better'..... which is all pretty typical newby stuff, BUT what you aren't doing is anywhere near the same level of attention in 'pre-process'.

What would you have changed , given these settings to improve the overall image noise?

To which, I would answer, 'nothing'... ho hum.... 'everything'. NOISE is not really 'the' problem, it's your entire 'approach' to taking the photo.

"North South East West check the corners THEN the rest" Look, REALLY look at what you have the viewfinder. If you don't want it in your picture, take it out at source, NOT in editor! Take the time to recognize what is 'contextual' and what is 'incidental' and be more discriminatory of what is adding to the picture, and what is taking away... NOT in the ruddy digi-dark-room, but at source, IN-CAMERA.

From the top then first 'problem' is the situation lighting; this is essentially a 'portrait'. It's not a situation shot, where you are trying to capture an action or situation, where that 'act' is as or more important than the subject, and might have to tolerate and work within the situation without influencing that situation. Its a portrait; ad OK, you cant really ask your horse to look at the camera and say 'cheese' but you CAN pose your subject how you want, and you can set the shot how you would like; no different to taking a portrait of a person.

Think how you would approach taking a photo of your child in their best cloths. You wouldn't just stand in their bedroom doorway, whilst they were watching telly, and expect to get something you would like to stick on the mantelpiece like the school photo's.. so how does the school photo photographer get that 'traditional' portrait?

First thing is that they pay almost NO attention to your child whilst they are about it... they set the 'stage' for the child; they set up a back-ground, they set up lighting, they 'make' the picture, BEFORE they put the child into it, let alone, before they press the shutter button.

Translate that 'approach' to what you are doing... OK, so the local school might be a bit perturbed if you tried setting p a studio set in their hall and then walked a horse in... but, in 'pre-process'; think about the set-up;

IS the field the 'best' setting for your shot? And if it is, what can you do to 'stage set' the scene'?
If you don't like the lead rain in the composition, CAN you remove it from the horse, rather than try and remove it from the photo? Will it stand still, long enough without it?
If you cant get rid; ca you work with it? It causes a lead line the eye will follow; so can you use it in the composition; lead the viewer to another element, a person, or a post, something 'contextual' to the composition, rather than leaving an ambiguity?
Is it the 'best' lead rope to include in shot? Do you have one that is a more 'natural' colour? Or one that is more flamboyant and could be a 'feature' element within the composition? Or do you have some other 'tack' that would do the same job, and either distract Les or add more to the composition?
Those red things? Are they movable? Could you shift them somewhere out of shot? If not, could you 'block' them from the shot? Stick some hay bales in-front, or throw a tarpaulin over them or 'something'. And that is if you have to go that far, and cant exclude them from frame just by shifting position, and standing the horse over to the right a bit, and positioning yourself a little to the left with the camera.
Trees? Neither fish nor foul in your shot, and the confused rendering in the high magnification crop, they are nether sharp focus adding 'context' to the picture, nor out of focus disassociation subject from back-ground drawing viewers attentions to the subject. And it's in that 'confusion' you are seeing the 'noise' you are so worried about exaggerated. IF you had used selective focus to distinctly chuck the far background oof, then that 'nose' would probably be far less noticeable, even at that high magnification. Alternatively, IF you wanted to render them sharp for context, you don't have the light to do it....
Lighting? Why shoot at 4pm, the lights low, ts poor its flat, its not flattering your subject, why not try again in the morning, or early afternoon? If that's not practicable, what could you do with artificial lighting? On camera flash, used for a little fill in, on your subject could do an awful lot to lift the subject from the scene; it would light up the horse, and chuck that back ground into shadow, and give the 'dissociation' selective focus might, as well as increase the contrast and lift the horse out and into prominence, as WELL as sort it the 'confusion' in the back ground AND eliminate 'noise' in it. You don't need to go o far as complicated radio flashes or lighting stacks... but you could...

Its ALL in your control.....

And THAT, is the problem here. You are taking control of the camera; you are taking control of the processing, with big obvious buttons dials and sliders that say "Press Me".. but you are NOT taking control of the PICTURE, which starts in the planning, and the set up ad the COMPOSITION, long, long, LONG before there are any buttons to be pressed or twiddled.

Impractical? Not what you are about? Too much to do for 'one' photo? Begs more questions than it answers, but takes us back to the very beginning... why are you picking up the camera? Why do you want a photo? Whats it for? Who's it for? How is it going to be seen? DO you really need to go 'that far'? Do you WANT to?

It's not an utterly rubbish photo, to start with; but you are paying far too much attention to the wrong 'things' and far to little to the ones that might make a difference, IF that difference really matters.
Am I expecting too much from my camera? Or still making beginner mistakes .

So Back to the top; "yes" you are expecting too much from your camera, AND I would say your computer; you are putting the onus on them to do 'all' the work, in the instant and after while having no expectation on yourself to do much but pick up the camera and press a button; paying little or no attention to planning or set up, or even what you see in the viewfinder when you do pick up the camera. Which is again typical beginners mistakes, but NOT ones in camera dexterity or control, or post-processing technique. It's fundamental, at source up front 'attitude and approach'. How you THINK (or don't!) about making a photo.

What's needed is a shift in your approach and attitude; you need to stop looking at the camera, and then at the picture. Forget the camera's knobs and dials, forget the computer's buttons and sliders; pay attention to what yo are looking at BEFORE you pick up the camera, and BEFORE you press the shutter button, and take control of the picture BEFORE you make it.
 
can I just step in and say , this wasn't a staged shot , nor a keeper, just a snap shot of a pet ... It was just an example to show the noise im getting , as much as I appreciate the artistic feedback from people in terms of composition , I didn't plan this
 
can I just step in and say , this wasn't a staged shot , nor a keeper, just a snap shot of a pet ... It was just an example to show the noise im getting , as much as I appreciate the artistic feedback from people in terms of composition , I didn't plan this

Noise is inherent in any sensor, just as we had "grain" in the days of film, but nowadays there are plenty of ways to minimise it, and if you do get it, to successfully deal with it.

Did you take my tip and download the demo copy of Neat Image?

That is a brilliant program and really does make an excellent job of NR.

But you do have to make your own "profiles" from your own camera for the best results.

Also noise can be reduced firstly by a smaller print, for example I can see no noise in the prints on here because they are small.

But the first step is to deal with the noise you have so use Neat Image, and experiment.
.
 
Both.



Critiquing the picture, my first ration is the horse' 'pose', just looks unnatural. It's certainly not a flattering stance, probably exaggerated by the angle. Then the setting itself isn't great. The lighting is rather poor and flat. As Phil mentioned, the red, I don't know cones? Jumps, in the frame are distracting. Background is confused; the tree-line, is neither rendered o provide context nor taken out of focus to emphasis your subject.

This starts to make 'sense' of what's going on.



Immediate reaction to this is "Ah! Looks more natural there! It's the 'rope'" (Been thirty five years since I put a saddle on a horse, so forgive me I have forgotten the technical terms!)
BUT, in the display picture, you have cloned out the rope, which is actually a 'contextual element'. It I adding 'something' to the picture, by way of explaining why the horse is standing the way they are. It isn't just 'clutter' making the photo more confusing or messy... ironically, the red things center left are messy and confusing, and adding nothing to the photo, BUT... you left them 'in'.

And STILL in neither pic is 'noise' particularly noticeable.



Now, presumably at the pixel-peeping resolution you are viewing to clone out the rope it is.....

Which begs a conclusion; you are putting an awful lot of importance on the camera, and expecting that to do so much of the work for you, and then more in post-process, using that to try and make your capture 'better'..... which is all pretty typical newby stuff, BUT what you aren't doing is anywhere near the same level of attention in 'pre-process'.



To which, I would answer, 'nothing'... ho hum.... 'everything'. NOISE is not really 'the' problem, it's your entire 'approach' to taking the photo.

"North South East West check the corners THEN the rest" Look, REALLY look at what you have the viewfinder. If you don't want it in your picture, take it out at source, NOT in editor! Take the time to recognize what is 'contextual' and what is 'incidental' and be more discriminatory of what is adding to the picture, and what is taking away... NOT in the ruddy digi-dark-room, but at source, IN-CAMERA.

From the top then first 'problem' is the situation lighting; this is essentially a 'portrait'. It's not a situation shot, where you are trying to capture an action or situation, where that 'act' is as or more important than the subject, and might have to tolerate and work within the situation without influencing that situation. Its a portrait; ad OK, you cant really ask your horse to look at the camera and say 'cheese' but you CAN pose your subject how you want, and you can set the shot how you would like; no different to taking a portrait of a person.

Think how you would approach taking a photo of your child in their best cloths. You wouldn't just stand in their bedroom doorway, whilst they were watching telly, and expect to get something you would like to stick on the mantelpiece like the school photo's.. so how does the school photo photographer get that 'traditional' portrait?

First thing is that they pay almost NO attention to your child whilst they are about it... they set the 'stage' for the child; they set up a back-ground, they set up lighting, they 'make' the picture, BEFORE they put the child into it, let alone, before they press the shutter button.

Translate that 'approach' to what you are doing... OK, so the local school might be a bit perturbed if you tried setting p a studio set in their hall and then walked a horse in... but, in 'pre-process'; think about the set-up;

IS the field the 'best' setting for your shot? And if it is, what can you do to 'stage set' the scene'?
If you don't like the lead rain in the composition, CAN you remove it from the horse, rather than try and remove it from the photo? Will it stand still, long enough without it?
If you cant get rid; ca you work with it? It causes a lead line the eye will follow; so can you use it in the composition; lead the viewer to another element, a person, or a post, something 'contextual' to the composition, rather than leaving an ambiguity?
Is it the 'best' lead rope to include in shot? Do you have one that is a more 'natural' colour? Or one that is more flamboyant and could be a 'feature' element within the composition? Or do you have some other 'tack' that would do the same job, and either distract Les or add more to the composition?
Those red things? Are they movable? Could you shift them somewhere out of shot? If not, could you 'block' them from the shot? Stick some hay bales in-front, or throw a tarpaulin over them or 'something'. And that is if you have to go that far, and cant exclude them from frame just by shifting position, and standing the horse over to the right a bit, and positioning yourself a little to the left with the camera.
Trees? Neither fish nor foul in your shot, and the confused rendering in the high magnification crop, they are nether sharp focus adding 'context' to the picture, nor out of focus disassociation subject from back-ground drawing viewers attentions to the subject. And it's in that 'confusion' you are seeing the 'noise' you are so worried about exaggerated. IF you had used selective focus to distinctly chuck the far background oof, then that 'nose' would probably be far less noticeable, even at that high magnification. Alternatively, IF you wanted to render them sharp for context, you don't have the light to do it....
Lighting? Why shoot at 4pm, the lights low, ts poor its flat, its not flattering your subject, why not try again in the morning, or early afternoon? If that's not practicable, what could you do with artificial lighting? On camera flash, used for a little fill in, on your subject could do an awful lot to lift the subject from the scene; it would light up the horse, and chuck that back ground into shadow, and give the 'dissociation' selective focus might, as well as increase the contrast and lift the horse out and into prominence, as WELL as sort it the 'confusion' in the back ground AND eliminate 'noise' in it. You don't need to go o far as complicated radio flashes or lighting stacks... but you could...

Its ALL in your control.....

And THAT, is the problem here. You are taking control of the camera; you are taking control of the processing, with big obvious buttons dials and sliders that say "Press Me".. but you are NOT taking control of the PICTURE, which starts in the planning, and the set up ad the COMPOSITION, long, long, LONG before there are any buttons to be pressed or twiddled.

Impractical? Not what you are about? Too much to do for 'one' photo? Begs more questions than it answers, but takes us back to the very beginning... why are you picking up the camera? Why do you want a photo? Whats it for? Who's it for? How is it going to be seen? DO you really need to go 'that far'? Do you WANT to?

It's not an utterly rubbish photo, to start with; but you are paying far too much attention to the wrong 'things' and far to little to the ones that might make a difference, IF that difference really matters.


So Back to the top; "yes" you are expecting too much from your camera, AND I would say your computer; you are putting the onus on them to do 'all' the work, in the instant and after while having no expectation on yourself to do much but pick up the camera and press a button; paying little or no attention to planning or set up, or even what you see in the viewfinder when you do pick up the camera. Which is again typical beginners mistakes, but NOT ones in camera dexterity or control, or post-processing technique. It's fundamental, at source up front 'attitude and approach'. How you THINK (or don't!) about making a photo.

What's needed is a shift in your approach and attitude; you need to stop looking at the camera, and then at the picture. Forget the camera's knobs and dials, forget the computer's buttons and sliders; pay attention to what yo are looking at BEFORE you pick up the camera, and BEFORE you press the shutter button, and take control of the picture BEFORE you make it.

What a load of unadulterated pretentious CRAP!

GothGirl is not a professional, few of us are, she wanted to know about dealing with NOISE - understand?

Jeez give the girl a chance.
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this wasn't a staged shot , nor a keeper, just a snap shot of a pet ...
Nothing wrong with the snap-shot, and as a snap shot there's not a lot too wrong with this one.
As displayed, the noise you site as a 'problem', isn't even visible, let alone intrusive; It just ISN'T a 'problem'
So where does that take us?
Suggestion it's 'just' a snap-shot, implies you aren't trying to take mantle-piece pictures; the quality doesn't have to be that great, and you neither need nor want to put in much if more effort to get a better shot... B-u-t... you'd still like the camera to give you one... for no more extra effort than dialing in a 'magic setting'.
Advice still holds, I think, IF you want a 'better' snap-shot, you can have it; and you dont need to go the extreme of a fully planned studio shoot to get it; BUT, you have to put the extra effort in up front BEFORE you press the shutter; Be that recognising contextal and incidental elements in the composition; evaluating the scene's lighting and contrast, and better choosing your framing and your settigs to make those elements work for you rather than against.
Problems displayed by that 'snap-shot' are in your approach and looking AT the camera rather than through it. Your focus of attension is in the wrong place; and the fact you are focused on 'noise' in a shot where its not obviouse or intrusive or a problem, is endemic of that, and likely aflicts all your photography, whether mere snap-shot or more.
GothGirl wanted to know about dealing with NOISE - understand?
Yup.. ignore the fact that the problem isn't one, dont try and identify what might actually be a problem; The customer is always right, so JUST give them a placebo that looks like what they expect or hope for, a button or a bit of software.. and send them happily on thier way till next time. I get it.
 
Yup.. ignore the fact that the problem isn't one, dont try and identify what might actually be a problem; The customer is always right, so JUST give them a placebo that looks like what they expect or hope for, a button or a bit of software.. and send them happily on thier way till next time. I get it.

The problem is you really dont!

But if you want to be a tosser go ahead.
 
can I just step in and say , this wasn't a staged shot , nor a keeper, just a snap shot of a pet ... It was just an example to show the noise im getting , as much as I appreciate the artistic feedback from people in terms of composition , I didn't plan this
I'm sorry I misunderstood this question, it's in the thread title too.:thinking:

or am I still making correctable mistakes when shooting ?
 
Noise wise it is as good as you are likely to get at those settings and with that camera sensor. It would have been worse on my old 40D. more recent cameras show far less colour noise and a more acceptable looking luminance noise..... at ISO 400 you camera should give excellent results.

If you are in situations that requires more than ISO 800, with that camera, you will see noise at 100%, However at ISO 800 it is likely to be acceptable.

Your problem can be put down to lack of light.
There are very few reasons why you should need to work in light as poor as that. So the best policy is to avoid it. or accept the limitations.

I am sure you did the right thing getting that lens, as in most situations you will find it so much better than the kit lens. I know I have one.....
 
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Unfortunately I have to work around the horse's schedule for the moment, so my available shooting time is 4pm onwards at the moment .

I'm not willing to use flash on this paticular subject , though may do so with others in the future , a big shiny reflector disc is definetly a no-no for most horses ... whom can decide that a crisp packet is a life threatening predator that they must run away from .
 
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