alternative exposures

Alastair

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An odd question, but does anyone know how to calculate an exposure using beta particles rather than visible light? And which film might be most suitable? My Google-Fu is weak, and clouded by too many non-technical results for dosimeters.
 
maybe he is selling beta particulates :-)
 
Presumably some form of medical imaging, rather than photography? My best guess would be that you could get some guide from the specification of your source?
 
Can you give us a little more information? Are you literally doing direct electron detection on the photographic emulsion, or, are you using anything else, such as avalanche amplification, scintillation, scintillation with photomultipliers, etc? From the scientific literature, which appears sparse on actual exposure calculation, photographic exposures on emulsions which are specifically not x-ray films from natural sources (lumps of radioisotopes) appear typically in the days to weeks kind of scale. You could do a back of the envelope calculation based upon a known source and a known film and hope that any scaling towards a modern source and modern emulsion is linear, but this will almost certainly result in a lot of experimentation.

Personally? Had I no access to literature, I would start with a few assumptions and hope that that gets to a good enough ballpark:

Ignoring the spectral dependence of the film response for a moment, we can then assume that one electron absorbed fogs the film similarly to one photon being absorbed - after all, a photon being absorbed excites an electron to a state where it is free to move around (random walk) until captured by something else thus making a silver atom - or something like that. I'm not actually sure of the exact physical process, but it's something like that. I'm sure someone will correct that in due course. Anyway, if you supply the electron, that process can be bypassed. I'd then need to look at the statistics which govern the probability of (for a single silver halid crystal) a single photon being absorbed and ultimately fogging the emulsion. In other words, averaged over the film, what is probability of [electron capture / photons incident]. For a modern emulsion, I'd hazard a wild guess at 0.5? As said, I don't know the exact physical processes here, so for direct electron exposure, I'd start with 0.5. Following this, and given the above, you'd need to know the photon flux (photons per unit area per unit time) required to acceptably expose the film (I mean from a scientific perspective, not some pedantic arty farty eejit stating "the correct exposure is what I saw in my artistic vision" :D) and divide your source intensity by this figure to leave you with units of time. Does that help in any way?

Edit: also, I just thought, typically electrons generated from radioactive decay (beta) are stopped by something like a thin layer of aluminium, so your exposure would be heavily affected by the properties of any layer deposited on the film on top of the emulsion. Something to keep in mind perhaps?
 
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Can you give us a little more information?

I was with you up to the end of this sentence... then it all went wobbly and I had a funny turn. You appear to be typing in English but I can't actually prove that. :D
 
I was with you up to the end of this sentence...

While that's what you say on here Andy, I happen to know from a certain conversation in the lakes that you're rather interested in stuff like that, so I'd hazard a guess that you followed a lot more than you let on ;) :D
 
H'mm sounds like a conversation that would empty a room full of photographers :D
 
At a very rough approximation, you may be able to use a Gamma or X-Ray exposure calculator and apply a generous fudge factor to take fluxes and film sensitivities into account.

What is the energy of the betas you are considering? If they are relatively high, then electron microscopy exposure calculators may be usable...
 
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Can you give us a little more information?
Note a lot of detail I can share at the moment, hopefully more information quite soon. The good news is that I don't need a sharp image, I'll be happy with a diffuse fog. The complication is that I've realised that the beta comes with gamma radiation for free, and this may complicate things.

A couple of years ago I discovered I had a condition (Grave's) that causes my thyroid to occasionally go into overdrive, I'm 99% certain it's kicked off again over the holidays and I'm waiting on test results toconfirm. Last time I took the temporary medicinal option which cannot be used too often without some potentially bad complications, this time I'm tempted by one of the two more permanent options - surgery (someone gets all Frankenstein on my throat) or radioisotope (my current preferred option). So ultimately the source for this proposed project will be me, and some Iodine-131. Reading the @robhooley167 comment above made me realise that I need to consider a change in the beta:gamma ratio at the skin surface, it's 90:10 at source but the plan is that I'll be absorbing most of the beta particle myself. So my film exposure may be dominated by gamma. My plan is to create an image by sandwiching a metal stencil between my throat and a piece of film.

I first discussed this odd project with my consultant two years ago when this first kicked off, and he hasn't a clue. If things get that far I'll no doubt give the radiologist his/her most unusual consultation in some time.
 
Interesting...

The gammas, not being heavily absorbed shouldnt affect your image too much (happy to be proven wrong though)

If you can find a value for the expected attenuation of the betas in your body, then you'll have a clearer idea of ratios through a fudged version of the Beer Lambert Law (a selective geiger counter would save this step).
 
One of our cats had the same treament a few years ago, so I suspect that you might find some help from a specialist animal treatment centre (Sara was treated at the Animal Health Trust). I might take a look at some of Sue's books (she was a hospital physicist).
 
Ok, so this evening I'm glowing in the dark and triggering radiation alarms.. wonder what happens if I bite a spider?

A discussion with the specialist suggested that the particles are too energetic and we couldn't think of a film that would yield a result. But it did lead to an interesting discussion about a project by one of his colleagues to write a radiation detector app for hs phone. Apparently it works, they'd been testing it yesterday against a know strength source - not very sensitive but not as inaccurate as they'd perhaps expected.
 
well 131 has a half life of about 8 days, it would be emitted from a wide ranging area on your body, i don't think film could pick up anything. the main method for getting rid is via your toilet!
btw i am a final year radiography student and was forced to calculate decay rates-god how i hate that algebra to calc the decay rate/decay constant:eek::D
 
I would hope that I-131 is *not* being emitted from a wide ranging area as that would defeat the point! I'm hoping that once the excess passes it will be very concentrated in the thyroid.

I did manage to grab a shot with my phone of the screen of the gamma camera..


Atomic Mouse

Technetium-99m tracer, Cobalt-60 marker button, 5 minute exposure.
 
its emitted after its done its thing, so no it doesn't defeat the point. yep its concentrated in the thyroid but you still wee at lot out:D
gamma camera is a photo multiplier and way better/more sensitive than film on the gamma rays, all those other bright dots on the pic are photons being emitted from the rest of your body if you had a look at your bladder it would glow like your thyroid, which is one reason we get you to wee before getting on the table, in other scans types it can mask pathology's. must say i am surprised you were allowed to move to take a pic, it can b****r up the scan and mean a restart i am guessing from the tc99 metastable tag below its not you, as that's a different isotope to iodine 131? edit-just reread its stated tracer for tc-99 i guess its just added in as a marker so it can be seen easily? tc99 has a quick half life,
nice pic mind:cool:
 
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That was the pre-treatment scan to assess take-up/activity. The iodine was given about 20 minutes later. The Technetium was a intravenous marker injection - didn't ask what it was bound to for targeting, I hate needles and they tend to distract me. I grabbed the shot after the exposure, it was still on the screen when I stood up. I had a doze during the two five minute exposures, this was the second exposure when they added the Cobalt button.

If they's been aiming lower or wider I expect they might have asked me to empty my bladder, but I'm guessing that as that area was so far out of shot that's why they didn't ask.
 
That was the pre-treatment scan to assess take-up/activity. The iodine was given about 20 minutes later. The Technetium was a intravenous marker injection - didn't ask what it was bound to for targeting, I hate needles and they tend to distract me. I grabbed the shot after the exposure, it was still on the screen when I stood up. I had a doze during the two five minute exposures, this was the second exposure when they added the Cobalt button.

If they's been aiming lower or wider I expect they might have asked me to empty my bladder, but I'm guessing that as that area was so far out of shot that's why they didn't ask.
cool, if there is any info you want on the scan its self ask away i can dig my books out-but nuclear-med isn't my area of interest so it might take a while:D
 
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