Alan Henning murdered by IS in Syria

Paul-H said:
If you don't take action against the extremists the rest will follow on like sheep, just look at Germany and Russia if you don't believe me, the vast majority where ok but they still got Hitler and Stalin didn't they.

The majority of Muslims might well be ok but but sitting back and doing nothing to curb their own extremists that are actually condoning it.

Then when the extremists are in power that then sit there and say well how did that happen, I didn't see that coming. did you.

Yes I did but the head in the sand mob didn't

Remember whilst most Muslims are not terrorists most of the worlds terrorist are Muslim and most of Europe's Rapists are also Muslim, but that's another Story
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I'm afraid any credibility you may have had went flying out of the window with your last sentence, the part I've bolded is shockingly misinformed tripe.
 
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I'd love to see legitimate data to back up that claim!

The older I get, the more antitheist I become. Religion has alot to answer for.
I'm beginning to think that the 'higher moral ground' of 'bringing them to justice' in a civilised society sometimes just isn't the answer anymore...nor is it enough.
 
fabs said:
Jews on their own are not one separate race per se but they are a semitic race and therefore separate from western races.
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So are you saying that no person of western descent is Jewish?
 
fabs said:
It depends how you define 'descent'. If you discount those who converted to Judaism then their lineage will go back to the middle eastern area, probably via eastern Europe.
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The discussion is about the religion, not the Jewish nation of the Bible.

So, Jewish people, just like Muslim people or Chrisitian people.
 
fabs said:
It depends how you define 'descent'. If you discount those who converted to Judaism then their lineage will go back to the middle eastern area, probably via eastern Europe.
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You're discounting a great many Jews there.
 
Dave1 said:
The discussion is about the religion, not the Jewish nation of the Bible.

So, Jewish people, just like Muslim people or Chrisitian people.
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I never mentioned the Jewish Nation or the bible, just pointing out where religion meets race as far as Jewish people are concerned.

viv1969 said:
You're discounting a great many Jews there.
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I know
 
fabs said:
I never mentioned the Jewish Nation or the bible, just pointing out where religion meets race as far as Jewish people are concerned.
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I thought this discussion was about religion in war? Hitler killed Jews for being Jews, he wasn't really fussy what race their ancestors were from. If a person was found to be Jewish (by whatever method) they faced a one way train ride (or a march into a forest and a bullet).

Read the thread again from where the topic turned to Jews (MartynK's post on page 1). He tried to say the genocide of Jews was racial and not religious. In fact, Hitlers "untermensch" policies extended far past just the Jewish population.

MartynK said:
Nazi anti-Semitism was primarily racial, not religious. Jews were classed as 'untermenschen' (subhumans). This doesn't mitigate the appalling crimes they committed, but it is a distinction.
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Dave1 said:
I thought this discussion was about religion in war? Hitler killed Jews for being Jews, he wasn't really fussy what race their ancestors were from. If a person was found to be Jewish (by whatever method) they faced a one way train ride (or a march into a forest and a bullet).
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Dave, it was in direct response to this:

to a normal rational person it should be evident that Jewish people are not a seperate race (you surely aren't trying to argue they are, are you?),
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I was just making a clarification
 
Paul-H said:
If you don't take action against the extremists the rest will follow on like sheep, just look at Germany and Russia if you don't believe me, the vast majority where ok but they still got Hitler and Stalin didn't they.

The majority of Muslims might well be ok but but sitting back and doing nothing to curb their own extremists that are actually condoning it.

Then when the extremists are in power that then sit there and say well how did that happen, I didn't see that coming. did you.

Yes I did but the head in the sand mob didn't

Remember whilst most Muslims are not terrorists most of the worlds terrorist are Muslim and most of Europe's Rapists are also Muslim, but that's another Story
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Someone's been paying too much attention to the Britain First Facebook page.
 
Dave1 said:
I thought this discussion was about religion in war? Hitler killed Jews for being Jews, he wasn't really fussy what race their ancestors were from. If a person was found to be Jewish (by whatever method) they faced a one way train ride (or a march into a forest and a bullet).

Read the thread again from where the topic turned to Jews (MartynK's post on page 1). He tried to say the genocide of Jews was racial and not religious. In fact, Hitlers "untermensch" policies extended far past just the Jewish population.
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I would say that Hitler's policies/aims, were a form of extremist exclusionism, rather than racism, because. of exactly the reasons you have given. The Nazis had this vision of a "white master race" based on Nordic principles, so to simply say that they were racist against the Jews, ignores the fact that they persecuted - Roma, mentally handicapped, homosexuals, people with alternative political views (millions of communists), Slavs and Jews, as well as many other people who did not fit the "ideal profile".
 
mex said:
I would think it would be harder to name a war where religion is'nt involved.
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WW2 - the nazi occupation of europe wasnt about religion per se , ditto ww1
 
big soft moose said:
WW2 - the nazi occupation of europe wasnt about religion per se , ditto ww1
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Religion was still involved in WW2 through the ideologies of Hitler, Jews were killed simply for being Jewish which is a religious hatred on the part of the Nazis (did you miss the large number of posts discussing just that point?).
 
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I know I'm going to regret getting involved here, but did anybody catch the interview with Mozam Begg this morning? V-e-r-y interesting.

I'm not really sure what to make of him as a person (I don't know enough about him) but I can't understand what was going on in the Foreign Office when he approached them and offered to help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29518323
 
Back to the OP's original post.

Yes, a hideous act, and one that really makes very little sense . I don't know if it was intended to somehow involve the west more so that IS could claim a western conspiracy, or whether it was some internal propaganda thing - we don't know. But they've certainly succeeded in hardening the attitudes in the UK to them, and probably many other parts of the world as well.
 
nass said:
Back to the OP's original post.

Yes, a hideous act, and one that really makes very little sense . I don't know if it was intended to somehow involve the west more so that IS could claim a western conspiracy, or whether it was some internal propaganda thing - we don't know. But they've certainly succeeded in hardening the attitudes in the UK to them, and probably many other parts of the world as well.
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Hopefully they have opened the eyes of young Muslims in the UK a little, Henning was a friend to the Muslim cause and a pure humanitarian. The killers have shown they hate the west and any westerner just for who they are, rather than what they believe in.
 
Dave1 said:
Religion was still involved in WW2 through the ideologies of Hitler, Jews were killed simply for being Jewish which is a religious hatred on the part of the Nazis (did you miss the large number of posts discussing just that point?).
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I CBA to read the whole thread , but i'm afraid that point is incorrect, hitlers hatred of the jews (and gypies, poles and every other form of untermenchen ) etc was racial not religious hence "death to the inferior gutter races"

Also if we're being pedantic the holocaust wasnt techincally part of the war anyway - that is the Allies and the Axis werent fighting over religious differences but over economic power

The first world war was again not religiously motivated - its cause being because archie duke shot an ostrich because he was hungry [/baldrick]

other examples of wars not motivated by religion are the american war of independence, the american civil war, korea, and the vietnam war.
 
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Dave1 said:
Religion was still involved in WW2 through the ideologies of Hitler, Jews were killed simply for being Jewish which is a religious hatred on the part of the Nazis (did you miss the large number of posts discussing just that point?).
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You're banging your head against a very thick brick wall I'm afraid.
 
mex said:
There will not be many wars/conflicts where religion has'nt played a part, I would think it would be harder to name a war where religion is'nt involved.
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Errr, not that hard

World War 1
World War 2
Korean War
Vietnam
etc
etc
 
nass said:
Yes, a hideous act, and one that really makes very little sense . I don't know if it was intended to somehow involve the west more
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Basically, that. IS appear to want a war with the west. I really can't see any other explanation.
 
Gulf 1 & Gulf 2 - loads of other examples

End of the day pretty much war is about power, land, or resources .. even the ones that are putatively about religion are generally just using it as an excuse
 
Paul-H said:
As its a religion that through its teachings is promoting the death of all none Muslims...
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No it isn't. It's a very small minority who just happen to be Muslim.

If you think that IS terrorists represent Islam, then you must also consider the Ku Klux Klan to represent Christianity.

With 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, it would be hard to believe that they are all evil terrorists!


Steve.
 
Back on the OP , its pretty much Game theory, they have limmited "moves" a more powerful opponent has a greater array of 'moves' therefore they need to manipulate the opponent into acting as they wish

as a small player IS can't hope to win - at worst it drags out into an insurgency pretty much like the Taliban/AQ , however currently their chances of winning are dimished by the fact that a lot of Muslims arent on their side.

If however they can provoke the west into doing something truly stupid - like a nuclear strike on mecca (not that we would, but some murricans think its a good idea), or interring Muslims without trial , or other brutatilities against Muslims and oppresion of the faith, then will see a groundswell in their support and be more able to portray the western Aliance as imperialists
 
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despite @mex 's statement, I actually think its harder to name a major war in the last couple of hundred years that has been about religion
 
boyfalldown said:
despite @mex 's statement, I actually think its harder to name a major war in the last couple of hundred years that has been about religion
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Wars are about difference. Historically most of those differences could be boiled down to religion (e.g. Crusades etc). Now there are more things to disagree about - oil, mostly.
 
boyfalldown said:
despite @mex 's statement, I actually think its harder to name a major war in the last couple of hundred years that has been about religion
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Aghanistan & Chechyna (Russians vs Muslims) , and the various conflicts between Arabs and Jews over isreal (and even that is more about land and power really) are the only ones i can think of. Even the current "war on terror" isnt about religion per se - in essence its about saying "don't f*** with us"
 
JonathanRyan said:
Wars are about difference. Historically most of those differences could be boiled down to religion (e.g. Crusades etc). Now there are more things to disagree about - oil, mostly.
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Absolutely, but its a bit hard to say religion is the route of all wars nowadays
 
or ever really - even the Crusades was more about a land grab with religion as the excuse
 
big soft moose said:
Aghanistan & Chechyna (Russians vs Muslims) , and the various conflicts between Arabs and Jews over isreal (and even that is more about land and power really) are the only ones i can think of. Even the current "war on terror" isnt about religion per se - in essence its about saying "don't f*** with us"
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I agree, but as with Isreal/Palenstine you could equally easily argue that the wars Russia was involved with were protecting its own land more then anything else. I'm sure they only invaded Afghan to mitigate the threat to their own border, and the other side in the Cold War attempted to make sure they had a hard a time of it as possible
 
I thought it was more about expansion (ie power) tbh - If they had succeded in Afghanistan they'd have gone for pakistan next and then the real prize a communist India which would have given them deep water ports on the indian ocean and totally invalidated Western global strategy - but yes for the Russians it wasnt really about oppressing islam (essentially the Russian grand plan wasnt much different to the Czarist plan - which was why we invaded afhanistan in the 1800s , not because we wanted a mountainous region full of hostile tribesmen , but because whover holds the north west fronteir holds the keys to india)

theres not much doubt that the indigenous opposition was religiously motivated though
 
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big soft moose said:
or ever really - even the Crusades was more about a land grab with religion as the excuse
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Tricky though, isn't it? If 2 sides have different religions, it's very easy to believe that it's about religion. And if they have nothing else to argue about then it probably is. But there's always something to argue about. Such as the conflict between Big Endians and Little Endians - I think that was spun as a religious thing.

For one thing, it's easier to recruit people to your side if it's a religious war - you don't have to worry about logic, just say that it's divine decree.
 
big soft moose said:
theres not much doubt that the indigenous opposition was religiously motivated though
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or that arming them, allegedly supporting them and then cutting them lose to get on with things possibly wasn't the best laid Western plan ever o_O
 
Paul-H said:
As its a religion that through its teachings is promoting the death of all non Muslims then yes that is what I am proposing, its the most Racist organisation out there at the moment and should be treated as such, instead of all the politically correct pussyfooting around them that goes on nowadays.

Why is it ok to ban other extremist groups but not the biggest Muslim one, I bet if they where white they would be banned in an instant
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Where in the Quran does it say that ? - you have read the Quran I take it ? - or is your information soley drawn from the Daily Mail ?

End of the day this kind of reaction is what IS want - if they can provoke the western populations into taking out their justifiable anger at IS attrocities on all of Islam then they have a chance to unite all of Islam against us, and at that point we'd have a real problem.

Banning Islam because of the actions of IS would be like banning catholisism because of the IRA , or banning christianity because of the various far right terrorists
 
boyfalldown said:
or that arming them, allegedly supporting them and then cutting them lose to get on with things possibly wasn't the best laid Western plan ever o_O
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It worked okay at the time - and the strategy of tying up the rusians in a soul sapping insurgency while also provoking them into a resource consuming arms race , was probably preferable to fighting them mano et mano in the fulda gap and accross the north german plain

and to be fair much of the Muj are in the northern alliance now anyway- its a bit of a falacy that the taliban were using arms supplied to the Muj by the CIA, its highly doubtful that a stinger (or more likely redeye) missile for example supplied in the mid 80s would still be opperable today. End of the day the Talitubbies and AQ were/are being bankrolled by inordinately rich oil sheiks and by the opium trade and can buy pretty much what military hardware they want on the open market
 
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Paul-H said:
If you don't take action against the extremists the rest will follow on like sheep,
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thats slightly less intelligent then arguing that because I'm a Christian I must be off to join Westboro Baptist Church. Your next Britain First Statement is?
 
JonathanRyan said:
Tricky though, isn't it? If 2 sides have different religions, it's very easy to believe that it's about religion. And if they have nothing else to argue about then it probably is. But there's always something to argue about. Such as the conflict between Big Endians and Little Endians - I think that was spun as a religious thing.

For one thing, it's easier to recruit people to your side if it's a religious war - you don't have to worry about logic, just say that it's divine decree.
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indeed - which is why its crucial in the fight against IS to keep the moderate muslim nations (and as far as possible our own islamic population) on side - and that means not letting them provoke us into doing something rash as knee jerk reaction to what IS do. IS would love to spin themselves as Salah al din reborn fighting off the evil western invader, but its difficult for them to do that if countries like turkey are in the alliance against them
 
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