Advice needed, what would you do?

Mark-Anthony

Mark-Anthony

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Hi All, I'm after a bit of input/advice.

On saturday, I had my last wedding of 2015 to attend. I started the day as normal with the bridal prep shots and headed to the groom. after completing them, I headed to the church. I arrived 15 minutes before the bride and was greeted by the ushers and vicar. I was told "no flash photography" by the vicar, simply because "it'll cause people to faint....and that's embarrassing to me" the vicars words, not mine.

The bride arrives, I go out for exit of the bridal car shots and the walk to the church. I walk to the front of the alter for the brides entrance/grooms reaction shots. all going well. the vicar walks infront of the bride, and without warning screams "MOVE!" to me. I replied with "ok, I was just getting the one shot!" to be told "GET OUT OF MY WAY, YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE WEDDING!"

I then move to the left, so I'm now on the edge of the room, about 5 foot from the couple and the vicar. I click away, getting roughly 10 shots before he screams again "TURN YOUR CAMERA OFF, YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE WEDDING!".

I pretend to turn it off and Neal down in the corner. the vicar then comes towards me and pushes me out the way! I stumble, catching myself just in time, so that my 70-200 didn't hit the floor. I get up immediately and reply "what are you doing? I'm the photographer for the day!". He then continues to yell "GET TO THE BACK OF THE CHURCH AND TURN YOUR CAMERA OFF!".

at this time, I'm both confused and livid, having been denied the chance to capture the ceremony shots. Here's the dilema.

I stood at the back with my second photographer, and the church warden. I asked her "is he always that rude?" to which she replied "this is his first ceremony here, he said he was tired!"

I'm left with a couple who are devastated that I haven't got the ring on the finger, first kiss or signing the register shots.

So far, I've wrote a letter of complaint to the church of england. the couple are going to the church office Tonight at 7pm. Luckily, the bride and groom are close friends and have said that I handled the situation well. I've also had comments off of all the guests saying that they will back me up, If it goes any further.

Was I in the right to speak up?
should I have carried on with the shots?

The vicar for their day, was not their usual vicar, He was a temporary vicar who had been brought in 2 weeks prior to the big day due to the old vicar being dismissed.
 
•
That's a situation where the lesson is: See everything, be seen by none!

Without knowing it, the very proud father of the bride made me the most gratifying
compliment when he told me in an irritated tone at the reception after the ceremony:
"Ain't it about time you start working!" … and I had 430+ clicks in the box!

As a photographer working at an event, any event, remember this:
You are a witness, not an actor!
 
I think you done all you could have done on the day,and i think you done the right thing sending a letter of complaint to the church,let us no how it goes :)
 
I think the Vicar was completly out of order, he should be sacked.
 
I've done 25 church weddings, and never had it before. not sure whether it was the fact that he wasn't used to the church, or just that he didn't give a damn about ruining their day. he has no remorse for anybody. he also, kept skipping bits because it was "taking too long". absolute joker!
 
dizidav said:
I think the Vicar was completly out of order, he should be sacked.
Click to expand...

one guest asked me "how did you manage not to punch him? i was angry for you!"

sadly, i had to keep my cool. deep down though, i wanted to strangle him...
 
Little_duke said:
one guest asked me "how did you manage not to punch him? i was angry for you!"

sadly, i had to keep my cool. deep down though, i wanted to strangle him...
Click to expand...

I'd have struggled not to have planted him one.
 
Think you've probably played, what is a nightmare scenario, the right way.

Even tho' they're friends - you'd not want their day to be remembered for you having a tete a tete with the vicar in the church....

As for his behaviour, it sounds inexcusable, after all it's meant to be a celebration - not a point scoring exercise or one where someone gets off on a powertrip. He could have asked you to move, without pushing or making the scene that he did - as long as you weren't getting in the way of the service, he really shouldn't have a problem.

I know that you've missed some shots, but hopefully the rest of the shots came out OK!

Cheers,

Matt
 
I was in a fixed position behind the alter, with my friend covering the back of the church for other shots. I'd rather him have spoken to me when I first arrived, rather than causing a scene and embarrassing me. when it came to the sign the register part, I was told by the church warden to go up. I walked up and within 20 seconds of me standing up their, he turned and said "will you get out of my way, leave me to do the wedding, then you can get your bloody shots!".

Only thing I can think of, was that he must hate Nikon users....
 
Gosh that was very trying circumstances. First of all, well done on not being rude back to him. You are right to make a formal complaint and I hope that the shots which you did manage to get turned out well for you.
The Vicar must have been having a bad day or he might have had some bad experience of togs. Either way, not something that he should take out on you.
 
I stopped doing weddings quite a while back, but talking to the vicar some days before the event was always one of the essentials on my list.
 
The one mantra I try to live by is "treat others as you would wish to be treated".

Let me state I am not religious or a church goer but reading this about the way a clergy man behaves whether he had had bad experiences or not beggars belief. Makes him sound more like the 18 stone drunk who pushes his weight about because he can to get his next pint and b***er the rest of the world!

Everything in regard wedding photography and clergy/registrar relationships suggests where a problem exists it almost entirely down to the officiant being (too) officious and in this instance if I read it right bordering on actual assault. And before anyone says it again.......yes, their house their rules, though why not at least the common decency of calm discussion and agreement.
 
Why haven't you spoken to him prior to the event? I thought it was pretty important part of your job to check with the venue and in this case the vicar... ? Any reason why you didn't ?
 
I've never had one that bad, but I've had a few nutcases where you have to just have to get any shots the best you can. I always half expect the next one could be worse.

Always talk to them about what's OK beforehand without fail. So if you've got a duffer, you can usually tell, and be prepared in advance.
 
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I had spoken to him when I arrived, he seemed calm as anything. I initially thought it was going to run smooth. all he had warned me was "no flash photography". I agreed to this, which is when I went inside to set my camera for the conditions.

It was after that, when it all went downhill
 
He'll probably always be like that. Just chalk it up to experience and move on.
 
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Little_duke said:
I had spoken to him when I arrived, he seemed calm as anything. I initially thought it was going to run smooth. all he had warned me was "no flash photography". I agreed to this, which is when I went inside to set my camera for the conditions.

It was after that, when it all went downhill
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Sorry I think you missed my point... Why didnt you speak to him before the day and talk about what was allowed and what wasn't .. where you could go etc.. isn't that the norm rather than a quick word when you got to the church?
 
Several above have suggested that your pre-event communication was lacking. This seems just.

Ethically, he'd been hired to conduct the wedding ceremony and you'd been hired to photograph it. But in a way you were on his turf, so the bias is in his favour (whether earned or not).

I'd've thought that a pre-event conference of some sort between couple-to-be, vicar and photographer would be useful. You as photographer aren't really in a position to instruct the vicar, but the couple (who are hiring him as they are you) are, or should be. I'm not a wedding photographer. Does this ever happen?
 
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Be interesting if the couple said 'no photography no wedding' and walked out!
 
I actually spoke to be vicar they had paid for. Thing is, he left two weeks before the wedding without warning. I've since found out that the guy on the day is a retired vicar who agreed to stand in as a temporary until next easter.

I'll make sure next time I chat with the vicar, to ask if he's actually going to be the vicar for the day, rather than leave it to some temporary solution who doesn't give a damn about the couples needs
 
What is it with some people. If you are in a bad mood there is no need to take it out on others. You expect better from someone it that position.
Nothing like leading by example eh! Politeness and good manors cost nothing.
 
I've had a reply this morning from the church of england. I think it's safe to say that they're disgusted the way I've been treated. They've now launched an investigation into the vicar. Hopefully this is the start of something positive
 
dizidav said:
I think the Vicar was completly out of order, he should be sacked.
Click to expand...

No way. If you're a member of the clergy you can get away with pretty much anything - and your bosses will back you. And to be honest, the church is desperate to hold on to their ministers - it's hard enough recruiting new ones these days.

Do be aware that their 'investigation' is likely to find the guilty party innocent of all allegations.
 
Little_duke said:
I actually spoke to be vicar they had paid for. Thing is, he left two weeks before the wedding without warning. I've since found out that the guy on the day is a retired vicar who agreed to stand in as a temporary until next easter.

I'll make sure next time I chat with the vicar, to ask if he's actually going to be the vicar for the day, rather than leave it to some temporary solution who doesn't give a damn about the couples needs
Click to expand...

Irrespective of any preceding conversation, when you arrive at the church the best thing to do is always seek out the vicar and introduce yourself nicely - reiterate what has previously been agreed to avoid any misunderstandings. That way you will know who you're dealing with, and potentially what you're dealing with.

If this person physically pushed you out of the way I would consider that to be quite a serious matter.

At this point, what are the bride and groom doing about it? Do you know if they have submitted a complaint? I think it's important they do - since they are the ones who are losing out. This latter point seems to be routinely overlooked by some officiants.
 
They've made a complaint to the church office for the local area. I went more direct with my complaint to the church of england. Apparently they're looking into it.
 
Little_duke said:
They've made a complaint to the church office for the local area. I went more direct with my complaint to the church of england. Apparently they're looking into it.
Click to expand...

Given that he pushed you in front of witnesses and nearly caused damage to your equipment you could sue his arse if you feel inclined - though filing it in the "what a cock" file and forgeting about it might be the better option
 
Lindsay D said:
Let us know what happens, if anything. Are you working at that same church again in the coming months?
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I'm actually tempted to refuse any weddings at that church whilst he's in command of it.
 
you can do that, but most clients will just get someone else to shoot it - generally you arent in a strong position as changing togs is easier than changing churches - can you afford to turn away work like that ?
 
Little_duke said:
Hi All, I'm after a bit of input/advice.

On saturday, I had my last wedding of 2015 to attend. I started the day as normal with the bridal prep shots and headed to the groom. after completing them, I headed to the church. I arrived 15 minutes before the bride and was greeted by the ushers and vicar. I was told "no flash photography" by the vicar, simply because "it'll cause people to faint....and that's embarrassing to me" the vicars words, not mine.

The bride arrives, I go out for exit of the bridal car shots and the walk to the church. I walk to the front of the alter for the brides entrance/grooms reaction shots. all going well. the vicar walks infront of the bride, and without warning screams "MOVE!" to me. I replied with "ok, I was just getting the one shot!" to be told "GET OUT OF MY WAY, YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE WEDDING!"

I then move to the left, so I'm now on the edge of the room, about 5 foot from the couple and the vicar. I click away, getting roughly 10 shots before he screams again "TURN YOUR CAMERA OFF, YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE WEDDING!".

I pretend to turn it off and Neal down in the corner. the vicar then comes towards me and pushes me out the way! I stumble, catching myself just in time, so that my 70-200 didn't hit the floor. I get up immediately and reply "what are you doing? I'm the photographer for the day!". He then continues to yell "GET TO THE BACK OF THE CHURCH AND TURN YOUR CAMERA OFF!".
Click to expand...


Get the couple to sue the C of E for the cost of the wedding images. Complain about the dumb assed bible thumper, and let them sort it out themselves. Clearly you were prevented from doing your job. You're off the hook. Simple as that.


Also, I'd have told the idiot in no uncertain terms that if he physically assaulted me again I'd have him defrocked, or whatever they do. Because he believes in a make-believe magic man who lives in the sky is no excuse to think you're above the law.
 
It's a difficult one. If Mark does get enquiries for weddings at that church it might be worth pointing out the problem with the vicar to the couple - and leave the ball in their court. Otherwise it is a question of turning up on the day, reintroducing yourself and hoping for the best. If there is a repeat performance then the photographer won't be the one looking bad, and the couple will have at least been primed.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Get the couple to sue the C of E for the cost of the wedding images. Complain about the dumb assed bible thumper, and let them sort it out themselves. Clearly you were prevented from doing your job. You're off the hook. Simple as that.


Also, I'd have told the idiot in no uncertain terms that if he physically assaulted me again I'd have him defrocked, or whatever they do. Because he believes in a make-believe magic man who lives in the sky is no excuse to think you're above the law.
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If only it were that simple David. The church allows photography on a discretionary basis (or at least that is my understanding) therefore withdrawing that privilege is unlikely to be seen as impedance. I'd like to see someone try and sue the church - others (with plenty of money) have tried and failed.

I agree that the assault side of things need sorting out - otherwise things will just get worse.
 
Lindsay D said:
If only it were that simple David. The church allows photography on a discretionary basis (or at least that is my understanding) therefore withdrawing that privilege is unlikely to be seen as impedance. I'd like to see someone try and sue the church - others (with plenty of money) have tried and failed.

I agree that the assault side of things need sorting out - otherwise things will just get worse.
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If i were going that route I'd sue him personally for the harm caused during the assault ... its doubtful the church would want to get involved
 
Pookeyhead said:
Because he believes in a make-believe magic man who lives in the sky is no excuse to think you're above the law.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to say that I have seen that in action - I remember making quite a formal complaint against a particular member of the clergy some years ago (nothing to do with weddings), and I was rewarded with serious threats against my health and a fair amount of intimidation. So yes, the role does unfortunately lead some of them to believe that they can circumvent the law. And in some cases they can, if whoever is representing 'the law' is like-minded. It's a big old boys club you know - and not a very nice one, for the most part.
 
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