Adult Puma Sighted in Scotland

[JohnC6]

It only takes a male and female to breed ,no idea how long it takes for offspring to then reach breeding age .,these large cats which are originally from South America I believe are also normally nocturnal . I have no idea of life span either .. I don’t think they are seen wandering around in there native climes much anyway ..

At the time of my sighting even if I had a phone /camera with me I wouldn’t have been able to use it ,both hands already full ..
I,ll also say this to put it in perspective ,last Thursday I went looking for one rare bird a squaco heron , I was prepared and got photos . It has since moved slightly out of the area ,if I had gone a few hours or days later it would be easy to dismiss it as fantasy .

Your entitled to believe what you want to ,but I know what I saw and at extremely close range to .no chance of mistaken I.d .

When as wildlife photographers we go out armed with a camera and long lens we are ready to take photos , but most of the time either walking or driving my phone will be in my pocket if I do see something happen by the time it’s ready to use the moment has gone .plus 99% of the general public will have no idea how to take a decent photo or video on the spur of the moment

From your post.. Your entitled to believe what you want to ,but I know what I saw and at extremely close range to .no chance of mistaken I.d .


I assume that was directed at me..Jeff..? Have you actually read and more to the point, taken on board, what I said ? It would seem not from the above sentence.

Just to remind you. I wrote...unambiguously..

You saw a panther/puma in daylight at 30'..10m approximately. You know what a panther/puma looks like so for one I'd accept that's what you saw.

My post was actually coming to your defence as you got a bit of kick back so how you've read it otherwise is a mystery to me. I wasn't even suggesting that you should have photographed it. It never occurred to me, not least because it happened quite a long time ago. the .1990's you said.

A lesson learned.

 

[JohnC6]

Where’s the s*** from these animals?
Or hairs from tree scratching?
Science can identify a species from these.

Fair points. Science can also determine a predator by analysis of bite marks on animal carcasses. I recall reading this some time ago when reading up on this subject .Might have been back in 2019 when two ladies in Nailsworth..15 miles from me..saw,in daylight, a creature resembling a mountain lion. Turns out that Gloucestershire is a 'hot spot'.

Dr Andrew Hemmings, a researcher at the Royal Agricultural University, has for several years been conducting analysis of bite marks on animal carcassesWhen considered alongside the wealth of reliable witness reports, the tooth pit data points to the presence of carnivores bigger than those indigenous to the UK.”

A sighting by a Lib Dem councillor so it must be true.lol. Coaley Peak is about 15 miles from me and close to Nailsworth too. I sometimes go to Coaley Peak to photograph stormy skies as it has an elevated view (233m) over the Severn Valley into Wales.

The report: A Liberal Democrat councillor spotted a lynx at Coaley Peak, “It was not my imagination,” Ken Tucker told Gloucestershire Live. “I managed to see it quite close up. I believe in big cats being in the area.”

However, as that map I posted shows most sightings have been in rural locations and N.Wales is so 'wild' the army find it challenging enough to send soldiers there on tough excercises.The Brecons. I've seen TV wildlife documentaries in which indigenous peoples, often hunters or conservationists/trackers do find such evidence as you've described but in places where their target species is known to live on a regular/permanent basis. These sightings here are all over the place and in the main, in forested or wild environments and finding faeces, tree trunk scratch marks etc would be pure chance and, as you say, more likely to be removed by rain/snow (Brecons for snow) A needle in a haystack comes to mind.

In the world's most famous thought experiment, physicist Erwin Schrödinger described how a cat in a box could be in an uncertain predicament. The peculiar rules of quantum theory meant that it could be both dead and alive, until the box was opened and the cat's state measured.Pretty well sums it up,really.

I'm of the same mind as Dale. Sitting on the fence. Open minded. An Apt idiom considering these creatures have sometimes been seen either walking along or sitting on a fence It's difficult to dismiss all sightings as mistaken identity because too many people reporting sightings include professionals some whose job involves identification or observation.

This article is dated October 2020. Yes,I know...the DM..lol. However, it's a good read and an interview not a biased DM article.

This is a paragraph taken from it about a practice which I was unaware of.

'There were scrapyards that used to use pumas as guard animals. What happened to all of these? They did not want to go for the licences or have them put down so they just let them go.

Britain's top big cat tracker claims UK has healthy leopard population

Rhoda Watkins, 42, of Cornwall, has gathered enough evidence to be certain of the presence of pumas and leopards in the UK and claims there is now a healthy breeding population.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[the black fox]

From your post.. Your entitled to believe what you want to ,but I know what I saw and at extremely close range to .no chance of mistaken I.d .


I assume that was directed at me..Jeff..? Have you actually read and more to the point, taken on board, what I said ? It would seem not from the above sentence.

Just to remind you. I wrote...unambiguously..

You saw a panther/puma in daylight at 30'..10m approximately. You know what a panther/puma looks like so for one I'd accept that's what you saw.

My post was actually coming to your defence as you got a bit of kick back so how you've read it otherwise is a mystery to me. I wasn't even suggesting that you should have photographed it. It never occurred to me, not least because it happened quite a long time ago. the .1990's you said.

A lesson learned.

No John not at you at all .I did realise that you were posting in my defence as well..shows how easily the written word can be taken in the wrong way / context

 

[Cobra]

Where’s the s*** from these animals?
Or hairs from tree scratching?

Needle in a hay stack.
How many people would actually recognise large cat droppings from dog droppings, or deer / badger / fox hair traces on trees or barbed wire. How many people would actually look twice as this sort of thing anyway.
How often do you think you would see even dog droppings walking in 1000's upon 1000's of acres in "wild" open area's?
Non of these are going to appear, with a song and a dance saying "here I am" mostly they are solitary secretive creatures.

 

[Nod]

And if bears do it in the woods, where are big cats likely to?

IIRC, Mary Chipperfield is reputed to have released a pair of something while on the way from Plymouth Zoo to Dartmoor Zoo. How long (in terms of generations) does it take for inbreeding to become a problem (in big cats)?

 

[Peter123]

Needle in a hay stack.
How many people would actually recognise large cat droppings from dog droppings, or deer / badger / fox hair traces on trees or barbed wire. How many people would actually look twice as this sort of thing anyway.
How often do you think you would see even dog droppings walking in 1000's upon 1000's of acres in "wild" open area's?
Non of these are going to appear, with a song and a dance saying "here I am" mostly they are solitary secretive creatures.

Sorry but without evidence I am not convinced.
Great Britain is a small island, these animals roam large areas and need a lot of food.
Not a shred of scientific evidence has ever been produced as far as I know.

It might be another of these

Girt dog of Ennerdale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[sphexx]

Great Britain is a small island, these animals roam large areas and need a lot of food.

There’s a lot of untended sheep in some areas and deer too.

 

[RedRobin]

But then again sometimes local people don’t like telling outsiders what they know. I remember Ernest Neal writing that when he moved to the New Forest the locals expressed no knowledge of badgers. Well, firstly not everyone calls them that, and secondly I can think of several reasons why people would not want an outsider sniffing round their things in striped pyjamas . And lastly, they may have just been taking the [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] .

..... Very much so! In the part of Dorset I am the locals will not admit the presence of the Great Crested Newt because reporting it actions strict restrictions such as, for example, not being able to go anywhere near your own garden pond when found there - Your whole back garden is suddenly off limits and it's illegal to go there!

If I photograph a relatively rare species of any wildlife I am usually intentionally vague about its location but that's mostly to avoid hordes of people travelling to see it. It's why I hate t***ter so much which always spreads information.

 

[RedRobin]

Not going political - but a lot of legislation is daft and easily circumvented. I believe the guy connected to Lord Lucan kept exotic Pets - Aspinal was his name, and they were legal for a time. They were then sensibly outlawed, but if you already had one you could release it.

.... John Aspinall was a client of mine back in the day when his home Howletts was a private 'zoo' and I was friends with the family. He was responsible for quite a lot of breeding and conservation work and even though he intensely disliked human beings generally (rather like as I do!) he cared far too much for his animals to release them in Britain where they weren't native.

Eventually, his "pet food bill" as he called it, became too much in spite of the income from his exclusive gambling establishments (Lucan was a member as is well documented) and he bought and opened Port Lympe and opened it to the public. Also, he naturally didn't want to convert his private home estate Howletts into a public zoo with all which that entailed.

One day when I phoned to speak to his brother I was told that he couldn't come to the phone right then because he was trying to get one of his big cats down from a tree where it shouldn't be! I have other amusing stories to tell but they are not relevant to this thread. He phoned me back about an hour later - Job done!

 

[RedRobin]

I'd say that illustrates a potential problem - that could have very easily gone the other way for that kid but by the grace of god it didn't.

.... Mountain Lions are potentially particularly dangerous because they silently stalk and ambush their prey. There are many accounts of close encounters between them and humans ending in death or, at best, very serious injury. Obviously all the species of wild big cats are potentially very dangerous but the Mountain Lion has the worst reputation.

 

[Gremlin]

Sorry but without evidence I am not convinced.
Great Britain is a small island, these animals roam large areas and need a lot of food.
Not a shred of scientific evidence has ever been produced as far as I know.

It might be another of these

Girt dog of Ennerdale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How often to you see fox scats when walking out in the countryside and would you know that's what
it was ?
Yes you see/smell them in urban locations but not so much out in the wild

 

[Peter123]

Has anyone ever found a skeleton or carcass of these supposed beasts?

 

[Cobra]

Has anyone ever found a skeleton or carcass of these supposed beasts?

Again, it'd be like looking for a needle in a haystack.
Less than 10% of the UK is built on.
Those living in urban areas may well find it hard to believe that its even possible,
those living in rural areas could accept that it maybe possible.

 

[Peter123]

I think this is about belief.
Many of you believe one thing, I believe another.
We will never resolve this until "something" is found.
Amen.

 

[Cobra]

Many of you believe one thing, I believe another.

I have proved it to my self as posted way back.
2 of us saw perfectly formed large cat footprints,
probably Lynx.

 

[sphexx]

.... Mountain Lions are potentially particularly dangerous because they silently stalk and ambush their prey. There are many accounts of close encounters between them and humans ending in death or, at best, very serious injury. Obviously all the species of wild big cats are potentially very dangerous but the Mountain Lion has the worst reputation.

That may be because they are fairly common in populated areas of the US and come in contact with joggers etc ( jogging near any big cat is very likely to spark interest I should think) but the majority of people seem to tolerate the occasional death, rather like sharks & salties on Australia.

 

[the black fox]

as I said a couple of pages back .. I came face to face with a black panther/puma a few years back at a distance of a few feet/yards no mistaking it lying at full stretch along a hedge top , the tail reached down virtually to the ground , . there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of mistaken identity ... proof that I cant provide .. but if you go search out big cat sightings in the Shropshire star paper from the 90's I know that it was reported often . .
I won't gain anything from posting this ,its fact . if you cant ingest that then tough .but its true

 

[sphexx]

as I said a couple of pages back .. I came face to face with a black panther/puma a few years back at a distance of a few feet/yards no mistaking it lying at full stretch along a hedge top , the tail reached down virtually to the ground , . there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of mistaken identity ... proof that I cant provide .. but if you go search out big cat sightings in the Shropshire star paper from the 90's I know that it was reported often . .
I won't gain anything from posting this ,its fact . if you cant ingest that then tough .but its true

Not doubting, but how did the hedge support the weight?

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I won't gain anything from posting this ,its fact . if you cant ingest that then tough .but its true

The general view is that escapes happen, so it's possible that your claim is valid. You admit you can't offer proof, so it's open to others to doubt you. This is how life works and no amount of posts will change that situation.

 

[Cobra]

This is how life works and no amount of posts will change that situation.

I agree, but unfortunately, no matter what the subject some people just cannot accept the fact there maybe an alternative point of view,
from what they think they know.

 

[RedRobin]

That may be because they are fairly common in populated areas of the US and come in contact with joggers etc ( jogging near any big cat is very likely to spark interest I should think) but the majority of people seem to tolerate the occasional death, rather like sharks & salties on Australia.

..... I am confident that that is exactly why. Potentially dangerous conflict invariably occurs in areas where humans and animals come into contact with each other as humans spread into animals' territories. Conflict with Tigers, Bears, and Elephants are the best known examples.

 

[the black fox]

Not doubting, but how did the hedge support the weight?

I’m talking farm hedge not front garden type

 

[Mr Badger]

What were we saying about the quality of video footage which purports to show the presence of mysterious animals? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-monster-caught-4k-video-canoeists-drone.html

As for stories proliferating, we used to have a place in the North Wales countryside and got to know most of the local farmers very well. At the time we had a tabby point Siamese cat, also known as a lynx-type Siamese, due to the 'clothes peg' type markings either side of its eyes. Now this cat was a bit of a character and took a very strong dislike to visitors. It would run up to the door as soon as anyone knocked on it and growl like a dog at them, and hiss and spit if they approached her. She would also shred their hands if they had the courage (or stupidity) to try and touch her as she sniffed round them growling. We always had a packet of Elastoplast ready for when it happened! If the visitor became regular she would get to know them and be perfectly fine with them, it was just strangers she disliked.

Anyway, you can imagine how this cat's fame spread... a rumour went round the area amongst the farming community that we had a pet lynx! How these stories spread... I suppose it only takes one farmer with a shredded hand to say it was done by a lynx (rather than a Siamese cat, as it sounds better!) and it goes from there! Another thing about that area (and this was from around 1974 to 1980, which covers the supposedly peak period for big cats being dumped in the countryside), there was not one single report we heard of in respect of big cat sightings during that time. UFOs, yes, but not big cats. Besides, if they'd have seen a big cat round there at the time they'd have shot it - you name it, they blasted it in those days! Funny how UFO sightings round there seem to have stopped and it's big cats now. Perhaps the aliens are shape shifters?

 

[RedRobin]

I agree, but unfortunately, no matter what the subject some people just cannot accept the fact there maybe an alternative point of view,
from what they think they know.

.... Exactly!!

Some people's lack of being open to others' alternative points of view simply because they don't understand them, is far too common. Religion and Politics anyone?

There is so much which human beings don't know but they like to think they know everything and some only rely on man-made science and/or their predecided mindset.

 

[the black fox]

The general view is that escapes happen, so it's possible that your claim is valid. You admit you can't offer proof, so it's open to others to doubt you. This is how life works and no amount of posts will change that situation.

What a total load of nonsense , my statement is not a claim is factual ,it’s not the bloody Loch Ness monster .. these animals do exist ,they have escaped or been let loose in the past . I am 75 years old have all my faculties ,not inclined to make up stories ,get a grip as from my end your calling me a liar

 

[Cobra]

Religion and Politics anyone?

Oh, I often think "Jesus Christ" when I look at the politics thread(s)

 

[Peter123]

I agree, but unfortunately, no matter what the subject some people just cannot accept the fact there maybe an alternative point of view,
from what they think they know.

I fully understand that there is an alternative point of view to mine.
I accept that.
Only a few posters seem to accept that I too may have an alternative to theirs.

I‘m out if this now as I feel the subject has been exhausted.

 

[Cobra]

I fully understand that there is an alternative point of view to mine.
I accept that.

That wasn't a pop at you, it was a generalisation that I see so many times around some of the forums

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

as from my end your calling me a liar

Please read what I wrote again. It's reasonably obvious that you didn't absorb my point.

 

[Dale.]

Well actually...

Wildcats | NatureScot


Not a puma, but wildcats are here.


Interesting article too, even with proven existence, still very rarely seen.

 

[Mr Badger]

The other thing to consider is does a person actually know for certain what they've seen? I mean what they have actually seen, not what they think they have seen? I've seen and experienced things on a number of occasions when I was young that I have no logical explanation for, including seeing a man in Edwardian farm worker's clothes standing at the bottom of the stairs one morning when I was about 6 years old. It was a recently built house we lived in too, built on a greenfield site, so not the classic creepy old haunted house stuff!

Investigation by my mother revealed that all the doors of the house were locked, a thin layer of wet snow was on the ground outside with only my Dad's footprints in it leading to the drive from when he went off to work, and the carpet at the bottom of the stairs was bone dry. So did I see a ghost? I don't know what it was, as it appeared to be a perfectly 'normal' looking person, but wearing what I now know to be Edwardian era dress (baggy dark brown corduroy trousers, an off-white calico type shirt, a waistcoat and neckerchief, he had ginger hair and a roundish, whiskery face with mutton chop type moustache. It's not an image I'd ever forget!).

So did I imagine this? No, it was 'there' as far as I could tell. Interestingly, a 'ghost' of the same description was seen by one of the staff in a hotel at the bottom of our road a year or so later (their account of this made the local paper). The hotel was built on the site of a large old farmhouse - the farmhouse was being demolished at the time of my sighting. So what did I see? A spirit, a time slip, a 'stone tapes' type projection? My eyes told me that I saw a man dressed as an Edwardian era farmworker. What did I actually see? I've no idea, but I'd love to find a sound scientific explanation for it.

On another occasion and in another house (a holiday home we owned), I saw, heard and felt the presence of what appeared to be a small dog (small terrier size), which would very occasionally jump on the bed at night and settle down at the back of my knees. This was experienced on two occasions over a period of around 5 years, other members of the family also occasionally encountered this. The exact same thing was also experienced by a non-family member who knew nothing of what we had seen, heard and felt. So is this conclusive proof of a ghost or haunting? No, but it's proof that something was happening for which we had no known explanation. Once again, I don't know what it was, but I'd very much like to have a robust, scientific explanation for this 'paranormal' occurrence. Until such time, can we really believe our own eyes?

 

[sphexx]

Oh, I often think "Jesus Christ" when I look at the politics thread(s)

Oh, I’m not surprised -- he was a argumentative SOB by all accounts, throwing his weight about in markets and so on .

 

[sphexx]

What were we saying about the quality of video footage which purports to show the presence of mysterious animals? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-monster-caught-4k-video-canoeists-drone.html

As for stories proliferating, we used to have a place in the North Wales countryside and got to know most of the local farmers very well. At the time we had a tabby point Siamese cat, also known as a lynx-type Siamese, due to the 'clothes peg' type markings either side of its eyes. Now this cat was a bit of a character and took a very strong dislike to visitors. It would run up to the door as soon as anyone knocked on it and growl like a dog at them, and hiss and spit if they approached her. She would also shred their hands if they had the courage (or stupidity) to try and touch her as she sniffed round them growling. We always had a packet of Elastoplast ready for when it happened! If the visitor became regular she would get to know them and be perfectly fine with them, it was just strangers she disliked.

Anyway, you can imagine how this cat's fame spread... a rumour went round the area amongst the farming community that we had a pet lynx! How these stories spread... I suppose it only takes one farmer with a shredded hand to say it was done by a lynx (rather than a Siamese cat, as it sounds better!) and it goes from there! Another thing about that area (and this was from around 1974 to 1980, which covers the supposedly peak period for big cats being dumped in the countryside), there was not one single report we heard of in respect of big cat sightings during that time. UFOs, yes, but not big cats. Besides, if they'd have seen a big cat round there at the time they'd have shot it - you name it, they blasted it in those days! Funny how UFO sightings round there seem to have stopped and it's big cats now. Perhaps the aliens are shape shifters?

Belated congratulations on managing to pass your pet lynx off as a weird type of Siamese cat

 

[sphexx]

I’m talking farm hedge not front garden type

Ye, I was assuming that. Yorkshire farmers seem to hate hedges and it’s rare to find a good one round here but I’ve spent a fair amount of time leaning back on thorn hedges (Barbour jacket) and while they support my weight from the side I don’t think they would from the top.

I’m definitely not saying it’s impossible just surprised that it was, and of course I didn’t see the hedge as you did.

 

[MartynK]

.... John Aspinall was a client of mine back in the day when his home Howletts was a private 'zoo' and I was friends with the family. He was responsible for quite a lot of breeding and conservation work and even though he intensely disliked human beings generally (rather like as I do!) he cared far too much for his animals to release them in Britain where they weren't native.

Eventually, his "pet food bill" as he called it, became too much in spite of the income from his exclusive gambling establishments (Lucan was a member as is well documented) and he bought and opened Port Lympe and opened it to the public. Also, he naturally didn't want to convert his private home estate Howletts into a public zoo with all which that entailed.

One day when I phoned to speak to his brother I was told that he couldn't come to the phone right then because he was trying to get one of his big cats down from a tree where it shouldn't be! I have other amusing stories to tell but they are not relevant to this thread. He phoned me back about an hour later - Job done!

It's time to spill the beans Robin. Did John Aspinall tell you what really happened to Lucky Lucan?

 

[RedRobin]

It's time to spill the beans Robin. Did John Aspinall tell you what really happened to Lucky Lucan?

.... Throughout my life I have never betrayed the confidences of friends regardless of them breaking the law and I have a reputation for being trusted which I am proud of. But no, he did not confide in me about Lucan and if he or others in that circle had done so, I would still never tell.

 

[RedRobin]

Ye, I was assuming that. Yorkshire farmers seem to hate hedges and it’s rare to find a good one round here but I’ve spent a fair amount of time leaning back on thorn hedges (Barbour jacket) and while they support my weight from the side I don’t think they would from the top.

I’m definitely not saying it’s impossible just surprised that it was, and of course I didn’t see the hedge as you did.

.... With reference to the hedge, in speculation might not a four-legged animal's weight be distributed fairly evenly across a section of hedge? And wouldn't the density of the hedge's structure also be a factor? In other words, we can speculate that it might have been possible.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

....regardless of them breaking the law....

That's a mindset I've never understood. If I know someone's broken the law, I'd persuade them to hand themselves over or report them myself (which I have done).

Of course, if you mean they admitted to parking on double yellow lines, or not paying for some sweeties thirty years ago, that's somewhat different and no sane copper would thank you for bringing it to their attention.

 

[MartynK]

.... Throughout my life I have never betrayed the confidences of friends regardless of them breaking the law and I have a reputation for being trusted which I am proud of. But no, he did not confide in me about Lucan and if he or others in that circle had done so, I would still never tell.

Neither would I, but I'd like to think you took the question in the spirit it was meant ...

 

[RedRobin]

The other thing to consider is does a person actually know for certain what they've seen? I mean what they have actually seen, not what they think they have seen? I've seen and experienced things on a number of occasions when I was young that I have no logical explanation for, [snip]................... What did I actually see? I've no idea, but I'd love to find a sound scientific explanation for it.

So is this conclusive proof of a ghost or haunting? No, but it's proof that something was happening for which we had no known explanation. Once again, I don't know what it was, but I'd very much like to have a robust, scientific explanation for this 'paranormal' occurrence. Until such time, can we really believe our own eyes?

.... Personally I think it's important to keep an open mind about anything that science cannot explain rather than disbelieve something just because it cannot be conventionally explained. I'm not saying that you personally are disbelieving its possibility but I am responding to the points you raise which I have highlit in bold.