A very sad story..............

**** is this still going on?
No way should he ever be pulled into court over this. If he has done anything wrong (I'm *not* saying he has), then surely the pain, anguish and heartache he has gone through already is punishment enough.
What would putting him on trial achieve? Surely he has suffered enough.

Sadly, common sense never does prevail in court. *shakes head*

BTW He's a member on here too.

Here's a link to his blog
http://www.adadsheartbreak.co.uk/
A heart rending read IMO.

And the original site
http://www.thegreshlets.com/
 
"Gresham had carried out a number of modifications on his Land Rover 110 station wagon in order to drive it off-road."

"All of that rendered this vehicle dangerous and unroadworthy."
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anyone else see the irony in that?
 
I really hope he doesn't go down for it. He's been punished enough already :(
 
What? He'll get convicted but I think the judge will show mercy and let him go without a prison sentence.
 
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This happened just down the road from me, it's a very very sad story :(.
 
the thing is his whole life will be a prison with or without bars. he will live knowing he made a mistake, and that mistake cost him more dearly than prison ever could. IMHO
 
So so sad:'(
The poor family have to live every day with the enormity of this and it looks like they have already been torn apart.
How this case can be in the public interest I am not sure, I hope the judge is a compassionate one. Surely they have all suffered enough and nothing can be gained by punishing them further still.
 
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Well it may upset some folk here but I think he deserves everything he gets.
I feel sorry for the mother of his kids and the rest of the family and also sad that 4 kids have died in a (remember the word "Avoidable") car accident.

At the end of the day whether his kids were in the car or not, it could have been your car, wife/husband/relative and kids he could have taken out.

Running around with one brake caliper larger than the other is surely asking for trouble, braking system must have been horrendously uneven. Half measure modifications to the braking system imo is criminal.
 
frank said:
Well it may upset some folk here but I think he deserves everything he gets.
I feel sorry for the mother of his kids and the rest of the family and also sad that 4 kids have died in a (remember the word "Avoidable") car accident.

At the end of the day whether his kids were in the car or not, it could have been your car, wife/husband/relative and kids he could have taken out.

Running around with one brake caliper larger than the other is surely asking for trouble, braking system must have been horrendously uneven. Half measure modifications to the braking system imo is criminal.
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If you want to take that, somewhat cold-hearted stance, then the mother should have been on trial too, for allowing herself and her children to be carried in a defective vehicle....
 
You may think cold hearted, but he made the incompetent modifications, I very much doubt the mother had anything to do with it except trust his dodgy repairs not knowing any better. The modifications were done to aid his off roading hobby which the motor should only have been used for, not for transporting his family around in if it was in a dangerous condition.

You allow folk like him to drive these unfit motors the road is like saying lets allow all drunk drivers on the road to get away with it and feel sorry for them losing their licence and jobs etc.

I hope your never in the situation where a family member/relative or friend is ever hurt by a similar type accident because someone never maintained their car, will you still feel sorry for the driver and hope he/she gets away with just a slap on the fingers
 
Flash In The Pan said:
If you want to take that, somewhat cold-hearted stance, then the mother should have been on trial too, for allowing herself and her children to be carried in a defective vehicle....
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That's not really much of an argument though is it.
 
[devils advocate]

I wonder how much sympathy this guy would receive had he of wiped out a car full of children coming the other way (god forbid)?

[/devils advocate]

Personally, I have no sympathy for him at all as it is.
 
But do you not think losing four of his children is punishment enough?
 
I think it is a tragedy but the law is the law and he's been found guilty in court. I'm not sure how much leeway the judge will have on sentancing either.

I'm sure lots of people feel remorse after the committing of a crime (and it has judged to be a crime) but that doesn't normally stop people baying for blood in the tabloid press...
 
Marcel said:
But do you not think losing four of his children is punishment enough?
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I don't think it mitigates him from the judicial system, no, as tragic as it is.

He broke the law and, in my opinion, must serve the penalty for that irrespective of any emotional loss he may have suffered as a result of his own actions.

If you do it for one.....
 
frank said:
You may think cold hearted, but he made the incompetent modifications, I very much doubt the mother had anything to do with it except trust his dodgy repairs not knowing any better.
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A couple of points here, firstly, you're assuming that the man considered the modifications he made to the vehicle to be incompetent and therefore had a laissez faire attitude to the safety of the vehicle to carry his family on a public highway. If that was the case then it would be tantamount to murder.

Secondly, ignorance of the quality of the repairs is no excuse and again you are making a statemnt without any actual knowledge to back it up. For all you know the mother may have been a keen diy mechanic as well and had taken part in the repairs/modifications.
 
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Marcel said:
But do you not think losing four of his children is punishment enough?
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Punishment for whom? Him? What about the lives he took out? It's not about him, it's his children. They too would most likely have had children. You cannot be given immunity from the law based purely on personal loss.
 
I don't know what his punishment should be. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know the full circumstances behind what happened. But what I do know is that he could not have expected not to have gone to court over this, going on what I've read so far.
 
And don't for a minute think that I don't have some sympathy for the family, because I do.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
What are you suggesting his punishment should be?
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Whatever is, in the judges opinion, suitable punishment for the crime he is convicted of committing, as set out by the judicial system.

There should be no mitigation IMO for the fact he has lost children.
 
This is interesting, I'm usually a bit to the right of Ghengis Khan when it comes to matters of law, order and punishment :shrug:

If, as Simmotino pointed out earlier, it had been somebody else's kids that had been killed I would no doubt be in the hang 'em high camp, but this isn't such a clear cut case.

Sergeant Dave Kay, who handled the police investigation, said: “Gresham has taken not one per cent of responsibility for this incident. The verdict means he must now do so.

Mr Gresham's side of the story is on his blog.
 
Something extremely strange about that blog. I'd have thought the less publicity the better.
 
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Marcel said:
But do you not think losing four of his children is punishment enough?
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Not really, especially considering the exceptionally dangerous precedent that it could set of leniency in similar circumstances which would end up open to to abuse from defence lawyers in future.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
A couple of points here, firstly, you're assuming that the man considered the modifications he made to the vehicle to be incompetent
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The land rover was examined and considered to be unroadworthy, not a assumption by me but a fact according to the authorities. He obviously did'nt have the knowledge to make these modifications in a safe manner therefor he was negligent. Perhaps a proper motor engineer would have told him that or perhaps he chose to ignore advice.
He must have known, despite what he said to police, that this was a defective vehicle. He must have known it was in a dangerous condition and it should not have been on the road in the state it was in.

Timothy Spencer QC, prosecuting
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I'm sure the QC does'nt make statements like this without checking his facts first.

Secondly, ignorance of the quality of the repairs is no excuse and again you are making a statemnt without any actual knowledge to back it up. For all you know the mother may have been a keen diy mechanic as well and had taken part in the repairs/modifications.
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So what are you saying ? is the mother responsible? If that had been the case then it would have been her in the dock not him and criticsm aimed at her. I've not seen it mentioned anywhere that the mother was a keen DIY mechanic and had anything to do with the repairs... unless you know different? Your clutching at straws here trying to shift the blame elsewhere.
 
I have sympathy that he has lost his children but if he had crashed into me and my child had died I would expect him to serve a prison sentence.
 
I've just read the first story which gives a little detail about one of the problems with the vehicle - namely the fact that one caliper on the front was larger than the other.
This is pure idiocy - without any other modifications that land rover was an accident waiting to happen at any significant speed.
Although I do feel that there are crims out there who are getting lesser sentances for worse crimes - I don't think this jail term achieves anything.
 
I can't understand some of the logic going on here. If he'd killed four children of another family, which he could just as easily have done, I'm sure we wouldn't be having this soul searching. He's killed four of his children due to his own stupidity, and he has to live with that, but all of us who drive vehicles on the road every day have a responsibility for the roadworthiness of them. It could have been your family he killed or mine. I'm not seeing any pressing reasons as to why he shouldn't face whatever sentence the court imposes. I'm sure all the circumstances were taken into consideration.
 
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CT said:
I can't understand some of the logic going on here. If he'd killed four children of another family, which he could just as easily have done, I'm sure we wouldn't be having this soul searching. He's killed four of his children due to his own stupidity, and he has to live with that, but all of us who drive vehicles on the road every day have a responsibility for the roadworthiness of them. It could have been your family he killed or mine. I'm not seeing any pressing reasons as to why he shouldn't face whatever sentence the court imposes. I'm sure all the circumstances were taken into consideration.
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I wholeheartedly agree. I doubt people would have been so sympathetic if the children had died of neglect or abuse, and yet failing to ensure the safety of children in your care is exactly that, neglect and abuse.
 
I'm not sympathetic per se. He did a stupid thing and does deserve to be punished for that.

However, if it was my children or someone elses children then I would say yes, imprisonment is a fair punishment.
However, he has lost four of his own children, and that, I think...is punishment enough.

Infact, why do we as a society send people to prison?
Is it for punishment, or is it to protect society until they reform?
Well if it's for punishment then surely he has been punished enough by his actions?
If it is for reform, do you think he will be so cavalier about car modifications in future? Do you not think that being responsible for the deaths of four of his own children will have had the desired effect on him to reform?

That's why I don't understand why he should be sent to prison....who benefits from him being imprisoned?
 
Marcel said:
I'm not sympathetic per se. He did a stupid thing and does deserve to be punished for that.

However, if it was my children or someone elses children then I would say yes, imprisonment is a fair punishment.
However, he has lost four of his own children, and that, I think...is punishment enough.

Infact, why do we as a society send people to prison?
Is it for punishment, or is it to protect society until they reform?
Well if it's for punishment then surely he has been punished enough by his actions?
If it is for reform, do you think he will be so cavalier about car modifications in future? Do you not think that being responsible for the deaths of four of his own children will have had the desired effect on him to reform?

That's why I don't understand why he should be sent to prison....who benefits from him being imprisoned?
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i agree with this totally sending him to prison achieves nothing imo. The loss of his Child will serve as a reminder never to mess with cars in the future. Do the public need protection from him? No imo he made a mistake and paid dearly for it.

Do i think that he should have received a prison sentence if he had killed other peoples children. No and for the same reason he is not a danger to people he made an error, Killing anyone should make any reasonable person learn from that mistake.

if on the other hand he knew the car was unroadworthy then yes suitable punishment should be expected.

Should you drink drivers and people who use excessive speed be punished yes imo as they knew before they carried out their actions what risks they were taking.
 
Toothie said:
i agree with this totally sending him to prison achieves nothing imo. The loss of his Child will serve as a reminder never to mess with cars in the future. Do the public need protection from him? No imo he made a mistake and paid dearly for it.

Do i think that he should have received a prison sentence if he had killed other peoples children. No and for the same reason he is not a danger to people he made an error, Killing anyone should make any reasonable person learn from that mistake.

if on the other hand he knew the car was unroadworthy then yes suitable punishment should be expected.

Should you drink drivers and people who use excessive speed be punished yes imo as they knew before they carried out their actions what risks they were taking.
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Sending him to prison shows other people that if you're stupid enough to build a car from 4 seperate vehicles, and do the modifications yourself, some of which were down right stupid, then you should think again before taking your children for a drive in it.

A fair punishment in my opinion.
 
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