A question about RAW files and converters

BillN_33 · 25 Sep 2015

If I download the RAW files from my Nikon into a desk top folder, they appear as .NEF files ........ if I click on a file I can see the image ...... has the RAW file been converted by an application that I have on my computer - a default if you like ...... say photoshop? .......

If you have three different RAW converters, say LR, C1 and Dx0 ...... and I import the same .NEF file into each ....... do I get three "different" RAW converted into .NEF files

or is it something completely different

This is new to me so if it is obvious please forgive me

dizidav · 25 Sep 2015

What OS are you using, Windows 8 and up lets you view RAW files.

BillN_33 · 25 Sep 2015

dizidav said:
What OS are you using, Windows 8 and up lets you view RAW files.

Thanks David, I have a Mac OS 10.10.5

but my question is really about how different the .NEF's are if they are indeed different ....... it is not viewing them

rpsmith79 · 25 Sep 2015

As far as i am aware, you cannot edit/change a RAW file, so all you are doing when opening them is either to view them, or to change their state to a different file format

For example, if you open a RAW file in Lightroom, it will not change any properties of the RAW file, and only when you Export the image does it create a new digital version of that file, usually in JPEG format (other formats are available

)

However, if you then export said photo from LR into PS, it will generate a TIFF file, which can be edited and saved

That is the beauty of LR, it is non-destructive editing

Not sure how C1 or DxO deal with RAW files though

Kodiak Qc · 25 Sep 2015

BillN_33 said:
has the RAW file been converted by an application that I have on my computer

•
Just like your camera will show you a temporary (not saved) jpeg version of
your Raw file on the back screen, your Mac supports "RAW preview" the same
way your camera does, by generating a temporary (not saved) jpeg version.
This will not affect your RAWs in anyway!

BillN_33 · 25 Sep 2015

rpsmith79 said:
As far as i am aware, you cannot edit/change a RAW file, so all you are doing when opening them is either to view them, or to change their state to a different file format

For example, if you open a RAW file in Lightroom, it will not change any properties of the RAW file, and only when you Export the image does it create a new digital version of that file, usually in JPEG format (other formats are available )

However, if you then export said photo from LR into PS, it will generate a TIFF file, which can be edited and saved

That is the beauty of LR, it is non-destructive editing

Not sure how C1 or DxO deal with RAW files though

As you know Daniel, I'm looking at different processing applications ......

I suppose what I am asking, (we know that the RAW file when converted by LR looks (slightly) different than when converted by C1) - is if you convert the RAW using C1 then export as a .tiff and then import that tiff into LR will LR change that .tiff in any way ... some of the selection and cloning tools in PS are very good .. can you get the benefits of C1 and the benefits of PS - I noticed that C1 "improved" the jpegs that I exported from LR ....... if you see what I am getting at???

and is there a case to say ..... use the "best" RAW converter ...... export as a .tiff and then use other applications for processing ....... or doesn't it work like that?

PaulButler · 25 Sep 2015

BillN_33 said:
If I download the RAW files from my Nikon into a desk top folder, they appear as .NEF files ........ if I click on a file I can see the image ...... has the RAW file been converted by an application that I have on my computer - a default if you like ...... say photoshop? .......

NEF files have an embedded jpeg (or used to do) so it may be that or it may be using a codec to view the NEF file (which does an on the fly "conversion") - if it is the embedded jpeg then it will be respecting any jpeg settings made on the camera, it is likely that the codec conversion is a "vanilla" conversion though.

If you have three different RAW converters, say LR, C1 and Dx0 ...... and I import the same .NEF file into each ....... do I get three "different" RAW converted into .NEF files

You most likely will get different end results in the finished jpeg using the default settings. Some raw converters actually edit the NEF file so be aware of that, for example work on a copy with these. With LR it is non destructive so doesn't change the NEF file in anyway. [/quote]

or is it something completely different

All raw converters read the NEF file and then apply various settings (think of sharpening, contrast, WB etc ...) - each has a default for these settings, which in many cases you can tweak. Some are very good allrounders e.g. LR, some are very good for specifics, e.g. DXO has amongst the best noise reduction I've used ... some give more pleasing results on default (or tweaked default) settings so make the work flow easier, I find LR falls into this category which is why I use it, despite having 4 or 5 other converters available ...

This is new to me so if it is obvious please forgive me

We all gotta learn Bill

As for which one is best, well that really becomes personal preference. For ultimate IQ I found I could squeeze more from the old Capture NX than any other but man what a dreadful interface and it took far too long ... LR for me is the best compromise, I also like that I can import/export to PS easily when needed.

BillN_33 · 25 Sep 2015

Thanks Paul

Terrywoodenpic · 25 Sep 2015

All raw files contain a lower resolution Jpeg file. ( it will appear as per your camera settings at the time of taking.)
You can extract this Jpeg with
http://michaeltapesdesign.com/instant-jpeg-from-raw.html

SsSsSsSsSnake · 25 Sep 2015

Ive read that C1 does more of a job on the imported file so can look better than the one into LR which does very little, but that you can adjust it and it can look pretty much the same.
As you say you have a Mac the free Photos app will also create a reasonable looking one too.

Kodiak Qc · 25 Sep 2015

Kodiak Qc said:
•
Just like your camera will show you a temporary (not saved) jpeg version of
your Raw file on the back screen, your Mac supports "RAW preview" the same
way your camera does, by generating a temporary (not saved) jpeg version.
This will not affect your RAWs in anyway!

• ADDENDUM
Bill, the trial version of CO8 you have generates a jpg previewl of every NEF and
stores it in a folder at the same place than the others xmp files. The created thumbnails
are just part to the strategies to make CO8 faster to run and still not affects RAWs.

Kodiak Qc · 25 Sep 2015

SsSsSsSsSnake said:
Ive read that C1 does more of a job on the imported file so can look better than the one into LR which does very little, but that you can adjust it and it can look pretty much the same.
As you say you have a Mac the free Photos app will also create a reasonable looking one too.

•
Chris.
CO8 is just an other tool on the market. Depending on your target quality, the
UI experience and pleasure, your workflow etc, one will make a decision as to
what converter will be chosen.

I adopted CO as early as CO5 and never looked back. My decision then was
based on quality renditions and the prospect of new engines and developments.
Boy! …was I not disappointed… 95% of my students and mentories work now in
sessions rather than libraries and 70%+ have switched to CO8, now CO8.3.3!

swanseamale47 · 25 Sep 2015

!If I download the RAW files from my Nikon into a desk top folder, they appear as .NEF files ........ if I click on a file I can see the image ...... has the RAW file been converted by an application that I have on my computer - a default if you like ...... say photoshop? .......!

No the image browser is probably "seeing" the embedded jpeg in the raw. Or if your really lucky "seeing" the raw file itself, it'll depend on operating system and how your viewing the image

"If you have three different RAW converters, say LR, C1 and Dx0 ...... and I import the same .NEF file into each ....... do I get three "different" RAW converted into .NEF files"

No you'll get three different looks to the way the image is displayed because all have applied they own "style" for want of a better word.

Ploddles · 25 Sep 2015

PaulButler said:
Some raw converters actually edit the NEF file so be aware of that, for example work on a copy with these. With LR it is non destructive so doesn't change the NEF file in anyway.

They don't edit the NEF file directly, just a 'sidecar' file that holds all the edits and this sidecar file is read the next time you open the file. There is no need to make a copy of the NEF, that will never change.

BillN_33 · 25 Sep 2015

swanseamale47 said:
!If I download the RAW files from my Nikon into a desk top folder, they appear as .NEF files ........ if I click on a file I can see the image ...... has the RAW file been converted by an application that I have on my computer - a default if you like ...... say photoshop? .......!

No the image browser is probably "seeing" the embedded jpeg in the raw. Or if your really lucky "seeing" the raw file itself, it'll depend on operating system and how your viewing the image

"If you have three different RAW converters, say LR, C1 and Dx0 ...... and I import the same .NEF file into each ....... do I get three "different" RAW converted into .NEF files"

No you'll get three different looks to the way the image is displayed because all have applied they own "style" for want of a better word.

Thanks Wayne - a good straight forward answer which is what I needed

CO8 is an interesting application to use ..... and the quality is good .......... straight into CO8 and out as a jpeg I see "better" images than the same from LR - but that's just my opinion

what I would miss in LR, is the ease of using the Catalogue, (The Library), adding deleting copying, management of my images ....... what I would miss in PS are the way some of the selection and cloning tools work, plus the ability to add text, (not sure if you can do that in C1), I quite like the History view and the way "actions" work ...... and also the way that you can pop in and out of LR ....... I do not know enough about C1 yet ........ but I think that I will end up getting it as I can see that I can use it as well as LR and PS ...... for selected images

But I'll keep trying C1 as I have only used it for maybe 5 hours over the past two days

The reason I am going back and looking at the process is because I spend quite a lot of time bird watching, and part of that time taking images of Birds.
I am an active member of the bird section ............but at least 25% and maybe more of the "experts" produce images much warmer than mine - I suppose that it depends on how you see things - and I know that WB is something after the RAW, but particularly I see Bird images taken with a Canon as warmer than mine and I am told to use the Cloudy WB setting - if I do that my images are warmer .... I do not see them as realistic ....... but I just see such as having a warm (yellow) cast over them.

I always stick to Auto in Nikon and then set the WB in LR or whatever, I usually get a comment to say that my images need to be "warmer"...... but as I said 25% + of the images I see in the section I regard as "warm" and not to my taste

Kodiak Qc · 25 Sep 2015

Ploddles said:
They don't edit the NEF file directly, just a 'sidecar' file that holds all the edits and this sidecar file is read the next time you open the file. There is no need to make a copy of the NEF, that will never change.

+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1…

…and leave them as they are, please, do not convert to DNGs!

Kodiak Qc · 25 Sep 2015

"swanseamale47, post: 7060997, member: 7669": If I download the RAW files from my Nikon into a desk top folder, they appear as .NEF files ........ if I click on a file I can see the image ...... has the RAW file been converted by an application that I have on my computer - a default if you like ...... say photoshop? .......!

No the image browser is probably "seeing" the embedded jpeg in the raw. Or if your really lucky "seeing" the raw file itself, it'll depend on operating system and how your viewing the image

Kodiak: This is not exact since the RAW files contains only colour and densities information, your OS may have the ability to preview the RAW in jpg format.

"If you have three different RAW converters, say LR, C1 and Dx0 ...... and I import the same .NEF file into each ....... do I get three "different" RAW converted into .NEF files"

No you'll get three different looks to the way the image is displayed because all have applied they own "style" for want of a better word.

Kodiak: This is correct… if I understand what is meant!

Furtim · 26 Sep 2015

Kodiak Qc said:
+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1…

…and leave them as they are, please, do not convert to DNGs!

9 and why?

Kodiak Qc · 26 Sep 2015

Furtim said:
9 and why?

•
9… because I totally agree with what Ploddles said… except to backup your files!

Please, do not convert to DNGs! Because this irreversible!
Once your files converted to DNGs, they are no longer Nikon files but Adobe files
and this means that some metadata have been left out in the conversion and this
is irreversible.

Furtim · 26 Sep 2015

Kodiak Qc said:
•
9… because I totally agree with what Ploddles said… except to backup your files!

Please, do not convert to DNGs! Because this irreversible!
Once your files converted to DNGs, they are no longer Nikon files but Adobe files
and this means that some metadata have been left out in the conversion and this
is irreversible.

Fair point on the metadata - I'd not considered that before.

hollis_f · 26 Sep 2015

Kodiak Qc said:
Kodiak: This is not exact since the RAW files contains only colour and densities information, your OS may have the ability to preview the RAW in jpg format.

No, the raw file does contain a jpeg image embedded in it. Otherwise the poor little processor in the camera would have to convert the raw data every time you viewed the image. Instead it just does it the onced.

I'm not sure if it's the same with Nikon raw files, but with Canon .CR2 files you can easily tell if an application is showing you the raw data or the embedded jpeg. Just take a pic with the camera set to shoot in B&W. The embedded jpeg, which is produced using the in-camera settings, will be B&W while the raw data will contain all the colour info. Load this image into LR and you'll see it displays the B&W image initially, then the colour image when it's produced its preview image.

Kodiak Qc · 26 Sep 2015

hollis_f said:
I'm not sure if it's the same with Nikon raw files, but with Canon .CR2

•
You may be right there… I know nothing of anything not Nikon. I often forget
not to generalize all brands in every aspects… nikoncentric me!