A Level Playing field - for Critique

[Carlh]

So I have an idea, it might be rubbish, it might be worth discussing it further.

I've been here a while now, a couple of years.

I have got lots out of the forum, some good, some bad.

I'm not having a go at anyone - critique is there for "critique" - but I'm just trying to get my head around the psychology of it so <everyone> is on an equal playing field and currently, I do not think it is level and fair.

This is why I do not feel like there is an equal playing field:
There is a FANTASTIC mixture of people here, from experienced to not so experienced.
Some people post up photos for critique, others do not.
Some answer critique threads, others do not.

The issue I see, is that those who constantly critique other's work, seldom post their own (if at all), for critique for the rest of us.

This doesn't seem right, I think people who comment against threads for critique should have to post, occasionally, their own work - if not to show the rest of us "how its done". Some do - and its amazing to see a fantastic photograph, its inspiring! (SO INSPIRE US!!!)

Before someone gets on their high horse and shouts "I post I post" - fair enough - MOST people do, but there are a number who do not.

SO - its not a level playing field.

Hands up if you have read several critique thread's and the same person is hammering every one of them and not because the images are particularly bad, but because they are in a BAD MOOD?
How nice that is that someone (usually more experienced, we listen to what they say - they know more than us) can ruin several people's day (and even their possible future careers)..

It is NOT right.

To fix this:

If a thread is created in critique section, TP gives "Points" to that user (regardless of what the images are, just a score for the thread creation). (if they delete the thread, take the score off). If they get a LIKE in their thread for their post, they get bonus 1 point.

Those basic points (so even if they have posted a poor image), we shall say 2 points, give that user the ability to go and critique other's work at 1 point per thread.
If 10 other people "liked" that original thread that earned that user 2 points, it puts weight behind the thread image quality and 10 points would be added to the 2 so 12 threads that user could critique on.

The scores - TP - you design those values - but do you see what I mean.

I have added this as a poll too, so users dont have to comment, your voice would still be heard.

Thanks for reading this - I hope Im not the only one who thinks this way.

 

[Tintin124]

This doesn't seem right, I think people who comment against threads for critique should have to post, occasionally, their own work - if not to show the rest of us "how its done". Some do - and its amazing to see a fantastic photograph, its inspiring! (SO INSPIRE US!!!)

Only bit I disagree on, for instance there are people who study art but don't part take in doing art, but does that give them less of an opinion or right to critique? etc... This is the same in photography.

 

[MickSturbs]

I'd say that the staff are probably wanting MORE people to provide critique, rather than potentially restricting those who DO critique simply because they don't actually post much of their work.

What, for example, of all the professionals - people who, for whatever reason, are not at liberty to actually post their shots - either because of (Say in sports) the restrictive licencing terms imposed on them, or, for fashion, weddings or product work for example, that the clients really want complete sole-access to the shots - are we going to prevent all these highly qualified people from providing critique unless they take the time to shoot side-projects just to be allowed to qualify to critique others...

No, apart from the additional workload of administering all the point-giving/removing making the green-team even more grumpy than usual, I think it's a non-starter.

 

[PMN]

How nice that is that someone (usually more experienced, we listen to what they say - they know more than us) can ruin several people's day (and even their possible future careers)

As much as I can kind of see what you're getting at, if someone's put off a career in photography because of a comment posted on an Internet forum then they clearly don't want that career enough. If they really want a photography career it should take somewhat more than that to put them off. 'Someone online upset me' is nothing more than a poor copout.

 

[miker]

It's usually fairly obvious who the grumpy ones are and the ones just out to be negative. Ignore them.

 

[PMN]

It's usually fairly obvious who the grumpy ones are and the ones just out to be negative. Ignore them.

Exactly. A two sided issue is trying to be approached from only one side here and that isn't going to work, when giving crit people need to know how to be helpful but people also need to know how to take it and weed out the comments from those who are just out to score points (or whatever they do).

 

[Yv]

I can't see it happening any time soon to be honest. As Mick has pointed out, it is hard enough getting people to offer good critique without putting them off further with some kind of 'we want to see your photos if you want to critique others' system. I personally, and I am sure all the staff generally, do not think you need to be posting your own photos in order to be able to critique other peoples. Critique based on opinion can come from anyone of any level. Technical critique and advice on improving or adjusting technical aspects requires an understanding of the techniques involved as a rule, but again, I see no reason why you have to have 'proved' you have that understanding [although I do agree it gives your advice credence if your abilities can be seen and would encourage people to do that if possible] Trust me though, if you advise on something technical, or rather, ill-advise, there will be plenty of members around to set things straight very quickly

Yes of course there will always be 'harsh' [if deserved] critique, but if that is what it takes to push someone to improve, that isn't a bad thing. If they just take the huff, then perhaps the shouldn't be asking for the critique in the first place, they are not ready or it wasn't really what they wanted. Some posts do cross that line between firm but fair, and downright rude and in those cases, we do expect to see an rtm and it will be dealt with [we cant watch every single post, there are nearly 60000 TP members and 15 staff, so you guys need to let us know] if appropriate to do so - because of course, everyone has a slightly different opinion on where that line actually is, so we have to try and tale an overall view on these matters.

 

[MickSturbs]

If people spit their dummies out, can't they be reported and the posts moved to a non-crit. area with a note from the greenie saying "as you obviously don't want critique, we've moved it to the 'fluffy bunnies'* section"

*(or whatever the non-crit bit's called this week)

 

[Yv]

If people spit their dummies out, can't they be reported and the posts moved to a non-crit. area with a note from the greenie saying "as you obviously don't want critique, we've moved it to the 'fluffy bunnies'* section"

*(or whatever the non-crit bit's called this week)

On occasions we have actually done that, or closed the thread, or made a mod post. Each is judged on 'merit' as it were and we try and do what is appropriate at the time.

 

[Carlh]

Its not about making less critiques, its about making MORE and it is about allowing someone to have the confidence in posting critque threads - Me - Im not bothered, I get bad critique <most> of the time, but I take what I need from that and learn from it, others on here, cannot progress because they fear getting hammered.

So - to elevate user's confidence in posting new critiques and knowing that the people who are going to answer their thread,
(1) isn't in a bad mood and running down other's work because of some personal reason/issue
(2) has posted critique themselves and is ACTIVELY participating (because they earned points from creating their own critique thread or has earned bonus points for people liking that critique thread - and not necessary commenting) - just telling people what they are or are not doing right, is not actively participating - this is photography - you can't participate if you dont take photos! Seems pointless to me otherwise..

 

[StephenM]

My own take on this is that critique should be judged on its own merits, not the "merits" of the person posting. OK, you may feel that some people's opinions are more equal than others, but really what should be weighed are the opinions not the person giving them. Otherwise, we're moving into an unhealthy deference to authority, rather than an open minded questioning and consideration of points made.

 

[The23rdman]

We don't need more rules. Post your photos and treat the crit you get with discernment. If people want indepth crit then it is probably better to write something about the kind of process you went through to get the shot/shots, what you think went right, what you think went squiffy etc.

 

[StephenM]

Carl's reply was made while I was posting.

It's exactly this reason that inhibits me from posting critique. I don't show my own photos for various reasons, and I only created a flickr account because I was challenged on another forum to "put up or shut up". Hence, being aware that many do share the view that those who don't post shouldn't offer critique, I mainly avoid doing so.

In practice, I skip over all posts that don't explicitly have "Critique" in the header (even if they are in a critique section), all posts with more than one image (it takes long enough to properly critique one), and any that strike me as without much positive about them. And even then, I'm very, very wary of expressing an opinion.

 

[The23rdman]

Carl's reply was made while I was posting.

It's exactly this reason that inhibits me from posting critique. I don't show my own photos for various reasons, and I only created a flickr account because I was challenged on another forum to "put up or shut up". Hence, being aware that many do share the view that those who don't post shouldn't offer critique, I mainly avoid doing so.

In practice, I skip over all posts that don't explicitly have "Critique" in the header (even if they are in a critique section), all posts with more than one image (it takes long enough to properly critique one), and any that strike me as without much positive about them. And even then, I'm very, very wary of expressing an opinion.

Dive in, give crit. The forum dies without it.

 

[Tintin124]

Carl's reply was made while I was posting.

It's exactly this reason that inhibits me from posting critique. I don't show my own photos for various reasons, and I only created a flickr account because I was challenged on another forum to "put up or shut up". Hence, being aware that many do share the view that those who don't post shouldn't offer critique, I mainly avoid doing so.

In practice, I skip over all posts that don't explicitly have "Critique" in the header (even if they are in a critique section), all posts with more than one image (it takes long enough to properly critique one), and any that strike me as without much positive about them. And even then, I'm very, very wary of expressing an opinion.

Dive in, give crit. The forum dies without it.

I totally disagree with the show us your work, do you need to be a good cook/chef to critique food.... NO do you need to be an artist to critique Art NO.... do you need to a be a photographer to understand light and hence be able to critique NO...

I do like the idea of a points system maybe more so for people to actually offer decent critique other than great shot!!!

 

[StephenM]

I do - but only on the limited terms I gave above. And I make sure that I never look in areas that aren't my special interest, because I'm aware that my viewpoint (fine art, for want of a better term) is a million miles away from that used in (for example) natural history photography.

 

[Carlh]

That would be great - although we need <more> people to comment on critique threads, some, unfortunately need to have a leash on how much they can comment, hence the method of encouraging more people to post their own critique threads (those who always comment but never or rarely post their own work, would be most affected). The normal user on TP who posts their own critique threads and answers others, would not be affected, they would not even be aware of anything going on in the background, while those who just comment and post nothing new of their own, get restricted...

 

[big soft moose]

Its not about making less critiques, its about making MORE and it is about allowing someone to have the confidence in posting critque threads - Me - Im not bothered, I get bad critique <most> of the time, but I take what I need from that and learn from it, others on here, cannot progress because they fear getting hammered.

So - to elevate user's confidence in posting new critiques and knowing that the people who are going to answer their thread,
(1) isn't in a bad mood and running down other's work because of some personal reason/issue
(2) has posted critique themselves and is ACTIVELY participating (because they earned points from creating their own critique thread or has earned bonus points for people liking that critique thread - and not necessary commenting) - just telling people what they are or are not doing right, is not actively participating - this is photography - you can't participate if you dont take photos! Seems pointless to me otherwise..

I see what you are saying but it seems an unnecessarily complicated way to go about it - anyone who is giving crit unfairly negatively because they are in a bad mood needs RTMing , and most people who give active crit are going to be photographers - they may just chose not to post them on here (or not be able to as with dataco / client permission etc)

 

[big soft moose]

I totally disagree with the show us your work, do you need to be a good cook/chef to critique food.... NO do you need to be an artist to critique Art NO.... do you need to a be a photographer to understand light and hence be able to critique NO...

That - the only time put up or shut up is justified is when you get someone who's trying to hold themselves up as a definitive expert on a subject ( like the now ex member who famously said " anyone who disagrees with me is wrong" ) - anyone can have an opinion and express it, but if someone wants the membership at large to take them seriously when they say "my way is the only right way" , it would help if they back this up with examples

 

[KIPAX]

Its never goign to be 100% perfect.. I ahvent come accross any of the problems you describe... seems to me that it works.. So why try to fix it?

 

[TheBigYin]

Carl's reply was made while I was posting.

It's exactly this reason that inhibits me from posting critique. I don't show my own photos for various reasons, and I only created a flickr account because I was challenged on another forum to "put up or shut up". Hence, being aware that many do share the view that those who don't post shouldn't offer critique, I mainly avoid doing so.

In practice, I skip over all posts that don't explicitly have "Critique" in the header (even if they are in a critique section), all posts with more than one image (it takes long enough to properly critique one), and any that strike me as without much positive about them. And even then, I'm very, very wary of expressing an opinion.

Stephen - I've been on the recieving end of your critique. Frankly, it was one of (if not the single best) bits of crit. I've EVER had, here or anywhere else - I frankly couldn't care two-hoots if you post zero images or 10,000 - afterthe amazing amount of observation shown in your appraisal of a shot that I, while happy with, had reservations about after living with a print of it that's larger than my living room TV set for 6 months or more. You more or less nailed EVERY reservation or fault I'd picked up on over 6 months, and suggested tweaks to fix... Chapeau Sir!

Frankly, what this forum needs is more people that are prepared to put that kind of effort into giving critique - I'd far rather people spend 20 minutes on one in-depth appraisal of a shot, than 1 minute on 20 images and give cursory "I prefer #3, but the lighting could have been better" replies.

(for anyone who missed Stephen's contribution it was here by the way - an object lesson in why you really don't need to have pictures "in your gallery" to give good critique...)

back OT - you may have guessed from my comments above, I'm not in favour of this whole points thing at all, and will be voting accordingly.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

A criticism is perhaps the wrong word as it seems to imply bringing up "bad" points about something.
where as constructive criticism is about trying to be helpful.

Any criticism good or bad can be helpful, if only to show that there is more than one way of looking at an image... or using a technique or process.
Criticism does not imply that any one else has to agree with what is said, it is never more than an opinion.
We are free to ignore, respect, despise, disregard, or praise and agree with what ever is written as criticism. It is as ephemeral as the wind.

We take out of it what we can.... we disregard the rest.

The purpose of criticism is not to pump up our Ego's, or send us into despair.
At best it shows us other people's perspective of what we do, and an alternate way forward.
At worst it is destructive and quite useless.

From time to time I do put up a few images on these forums to illustrate certain points, but never specifically for criticism.
On the other hand, I do sometimes remark on work if it is asked for.
My opinions are no better and no worse than any other... I just hope they are reasoned , understandable and helpful.

 

[big soft moose]

Frankly, what this forum needs is more people that are prepared to put that kind of effort into giving critique - I'd far rather people spend 20 minutes on one in-depth appraisal of a shot, than 1 minute on 20 images and give cursory "I prefer #3, but the lighting could have been better" replies.

I agree - but what puts me (and I expect many others) off spending 20 mins on one image is when the op then turns round and says "well I like it as it is " - so why did you post for crit then numbnuts ?

a few of those experiences will lead most people not to waste their time , or only to give crit to people they know won't react badly

 

[TheBigYin]

I agree - but what puts me (and I expect many others) off spending 20 mins on one image is when the op then turns round and says "well I like it as it is " - so why did you post for crit then numbnuts ?

a few of those experiences will lead most people not to waste their time , or only to give crit to people they know won't react badly

And that's where we NEED the post RTM'ing so that they can get the treatment as described by Yv above... My pet hate is the whole "disruptive post editing" thing - where someone gets something even slightly negative said about an image and immediately removes it. Frankly, my reaction to that is to immediately remove them for 3 days and reinstate their post in a locked state. Fortunately, over in F&C we don't often get that kind of ungentlemanly conduct

 

[KIPAX]

My latest attempt at critique got

I'll take that onboard next time but I am not a pro photographer and working shifts it limits my time. The pitch slopes heavily so do I make the images look false? I am sure some people are less critical and don't comment? But like to view pictures for what they are unlike your poor spelling on this forum? There is such a thing as spell check! I seriously wish not to offend but we all aren't perfect?

 

[big soft moose]

exactly - that sort of response deserves a t***ting with the hammer of doom

 

[Phil V]

It's difficult to say this without offending someone, but the single biggest problem with critique on the forum IMHO are the small army of people who visit every critique thread to post, 'it's a great shot - certainly better than anything I could do'.

That's not critique, in fact it's the absolute opposite. I've opened some posts to critique and been met with an overly processed hash up, followed by half a dozen comments like the above, from where there is only one way out. Go to the next thread. There is no way that my opinion is going to measure against those half a dozen voices, and no way that I'm not going to appear 'grumpy' or just in a bad mood. So the OP thinks that what they're doing is great, which reinforces bad practice, which spreads the same, creating a vicious circle where all new portrait photographers believe that everyones eyes need oversharpening and whitening. As if there's no way that an actual human being that looks like a human being is going to look right without that 'very basic' fix.

 

[big soft moose]

It's difficult to say this without offending someone, but the single biggest problem with critique on the forum IMHO are the small army of people who visit every critique thread to post, 'it's a great shot - certainly better than anything I could do'.
.

That 1000 x that

and of course not forgetting the sort of pathetic individual who judges whether a shot os good or not by whether they like the poster

 

[Carlh]

and I'll be honest - I've been guilty of that, mostly because I feel I could not give a valuable critique to someone's post, but I do want them to know "I like it". I am tending to use the "like" button on the thread heading post more without commenting and perhaps that should be used more for those who can't offer critique but would like the photographer to know the image has a thumbs up.

Perhaps this thread is pointless. All I know, is I've seen some nasty replies from OPs and people who critique their posts and it does discourage others who visit this site (hundreds of people I imagine) from ever posting..

 

[Phil V]

and I'll be honest - I've been guilty of that, mostly because I feel I could not give a valuable critique to someone's post, but I do want them to know "I like it". I am tending to use the "like" button on the thread heading post more without commenting and perhaps that should be used more for those who can't offer critique but would like the photographer to know the image has a thumbs up.

Perhaps this thread is pointless. All I know, is I've seen some nasty replies from OPs and people who critique their posts and it does discourage others who visit this site (hundreds of people I imagine) from ever posting..

I don't think it's pointless, it's allowed some people to air their views and it has given some a greater understanding of how critique works (or should work).

Because critique is subjective by nature, you'll never get a consensus, apart from the widely held belief that there should be more and better critique.

But to counter your original point, I don't offer much critique, and under your rules I'd be able to offer even less, you might think that's a good thing

 

[TheBigYin]

It's difficult to say this without offending someone, but the single biggest problem with critique on the forum IMHO are the small army of people who visit every critique thread to post, 'it's a great shot - certainly better than anything I could do'.

That's not critique, in fact it's the absolute opposite. I've opened some posts to critique and been met with an overly processed hash up, followed by half a dozen comments like the above, from where there is only one way out. Go to the next thread. There is no way that my opinion is going to measure against those half a dozen voices, and no way that I'm not going to appear 'grumpy' or just in a bad mood. So the OP thinks that what they're doing is great, which reinforces bad practice, which spreads the same, creating a vicious circle where all new portrait photographers believe that everyones eyes need oversharpening and whitening. As if there's no way that an actual human being that looks like a human being is going to look right without that 'very basic' fix.

I must be honest, those kind of threads are often the ones that I DO offer critique in. I'm afraid, as a yorkshire lad, I've a tendency to be a little blunt, not subscribing to the "s*** sandwich" principle - if somethings bad, then I'll tell the OP that it's bad - but I do, wherever possible try and suggest ways to get it right the next time because even the worst photograph has one thing going for it - it's the perfect excuse to get back out and do a re-shoot!

(fortunately the green namebadge usually minimises the dummy spitting I guess)

 

[Carlh]

But to counter your original point, I don't offer much critique, and under your rules I'd be able to offer even less, you might think that's a good thing

Your critique has been great for me Phil - it really has and helped me plenty - but it would not affect you because you would get lots of likes on what you say, which allows you to carry on commenting.

Ok - how about this - a thumbs up or down system like youtube. People comment and are unduly harsh - people can "thumbs down" the comment until it "disappears". That would solve it ?

 

[big soft moose]

Your critique has been great for me Phil - it really has and helped me plenty - but it would not affect you because you would get lots of likes on what you say, which allows you to carry on commenting.

Ok - how about this - a thumbs up or down system like youtube. People comment and are unduly harsh - people can "thumbs down" the comment until it "disappears". That would solve it ?

or pathetic individuals can thumbsdown any comment they don't like or any poster they don't like - seems pretty pointless to me , if theres unduly harsh crit (and tbh ive not seen any for a long time) just report it

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Nothing wrong with a very harsh crit if it is deserved.
You either believe it and may be learn something....
Or you don't agree, and ignore it.
No one is forcing anything on any one.

 

[boyfalldown]

The issue I see, is that those who constantly critique other's work, seldom post their own (if at all), for critique for the rest of us.

This doesn't seem right, I think people who comment against threads for critique should have to post, occasionally, their own work - if not to show the rest of us "how its done". Some do - and its amazing to see a fantastic photograph, its inspiring! (SO INSPIRE US!!!)

Before someone gets on their high horse and shouts "I post I post" - fair enough - MOST people do, but there are a number who do not.

I don't think it is - you can post helpful comments without posting any of your own work for whatever reason. The bigger issue (now solved) was people who posted adoration threads, never contributing elsewhere

 

[ghoti]

Of course, there seems to be no widely held belief that you need any sort of competence at all in an artform in order to effectively criticise it.
Or else journalistic criticism would be in trouble.

 

[boyfalldown]

of course good critique is in itself a learning exercise for those giving the crit, which seems to have gotten missed somewhere

 

[Phil V]

of course good critique is in itself a learning exercise for those giving the crit, which seems to have gotten missed somewhere

And it's this that the 'great photo' brigade are robbing themselves of. They will never develop a critical eye if they make no attempt to exercise one. But critical thinking is missing from many areas of society as it's often missed out of education. Leaving a society that'll swallow whatever horse poop they're fed.

 

[Alastair]

No.. don't reward people just for putting up a "critique thread", one of the problems with critique on TP is the signal to noise ratio. An awful lot of people submit too many images without any self-critique and self-editing before uploading or starting the thread. Anyone that wants to give critique then has to wade through this quagmire trying to find a thread with images that they can give some interesting or useful critique about - because not every image is easy to critique and a genuinely interesting image could take 20 minutes or more to critique (for which the reward is too often the privilege of being ignored by the OP). But this is ground that's been covered on other threads before.

Getting back to the point of the OP, I do think that a failure to understand the difference between critique and criticism is too often at the root of all the problems that get ascribed to critique threads. And if someone is being particularly grumpy you can either challenge their criticisms directly if you disagree with them, ignore them or report them.

 

[PatrickO]

My feeling is that TP is for everyone from completely beginners to the awesome artists and professionals. All crit is subjective. It's rare that any of my pics is universally liked or disliked. Comments like "nice pics" are ok, just not very useful. Even the grumpy sods often give helpful crit, if you can swallow your pride enough to hear it. And the mods are pretty good at keeping things friendly and stopping threads degenerating.

So, I say leave it as it is.