A few questions for a film newbie

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Toon49

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Hi I'm pretty new to photography but I'm really enjoying it so far with an old digital bridge camera. I wanted to try out an slr and was recently given a pentax super me. I've put batteries in and loaded film from poundland and all seems fine!
So a few questions, as I'm new to slr photography, when dealing with exposure shutter speed ect, how will I know which settings make the picture come out if that makes sense. For example on my bridge I change the settings and can see the photo after and modify it if needed. I'm guessing I should just take them and hope for the best when they are developed.

Second question is where do you get them developed cheapest (as I'm a poor student and I'm sure will need alot of goes to get used to it). I've tried my local asda and Tesco but neither develop film. Anyone know anywhere around Newcastle at all?

Thanks in advance and any more advice you think would be useful would be great as I'm totally new to this!
 
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Well, your first question goes straight to the heart of one of the joys (and frustrations) of film: "how will I know which settings make the picture come out if that makes sense. For example on my bridge I change the settings and can see the photo after and modify it if needed..." Basically, you won't know (at least at first).

In the first place, the ME Super is a pretty good camera. Trust it. Stick it in Aperture Priority and go with it. Take lots of pictures, assess them carefully, think about the conditions. (Show us some!)

Second, look up the Sunny 16 rule (some folk here call it Sunny 11 in the UK), and practice assessing the exposure by just looking around you at the light. Some folk here make notes of the conditions and exposure that they used, and check when the film comes back. Lots don't. I now trust my Pentax ME, and I'm beginning to recognise the situations where it might get fooled and adjust for it.

Finding an Asda that does process and low res scan at £3 a roll may be your best bet, but I don't know the area. There's a sticky at the start of this forum on processing options, including a little price calculator. I use Photo Express in Hull for C41 film process and medium scan, unless I'm in a hurry when I use Max Spielmann in town at £5 for process and low res scan (1200 dpi... good enough for the web).

Good luck, and do share the results!
 
Shutter controls blur, Apature controls Depth of focus.
Higher shutter speeds, mean less light on the film, so usually need a wider appature to get the correct exposure, slower shutter speeds vica versa. Film speed, ISO, is fixed by the film you put in the camera, and cant, like on a digital camera be changed between frames.
Camera ought to have some sort of meter display, in the view-finder.. I'm not familiar with the Pentax, so dont know what it will be; could be a swing needle that shows if settings you have selected will result in over or under exposure, a horezontal needle, usually dentoting 'balenced' settings.... but make sure that the meter is set to the same ISO (ASA) number as on your film, or it will over-or under read depending on what film speed is set.
some have LED level meters, others, if they are in Automatic Exposure mode, will tell you what shutter speed or appature they have set, for the appature or shutter you have set.
Fast shutters freeze motion, & avoid blur.
Small appatures increase depth of focus.
Try and find a manual/ owners book / instruction pamphlet for the camera, read.
Then go burn film!
Guide to exposure is quite useful on Tutorial board.
 
Initially the exposure triangle can seem very daunting and difficult to understand for some people, however it is imo one the most important areas of photography to learn.

This will offer you a basic understanding of how aperture, shutter speed and iso (film speed) affect your photos and how different combinations of those three elements can offer you completely different results the same subject.
 
The first thing to remember with a film camera (and probably digital) is the meter can't see colour and the meter is set to standard of Kodak grey, for example a yellow flower would be a light grey to the meter and something black would be a very dark grey....so everything it reads in a scene, it averages out to this Kodak grey, at this beginning stage you don't have to know the why\details etc but a tip that works for me in giving 99% correct exposed shots is:-
If you see a subject or scenery you want to take, then set the camera on manual and take a reading of something equivalent of Kodak grey that's in the same sunshine\light as your intending shot..you can buy a Kodak grey card but not essential as the equivalent is darkish green grass and shrubs, grey pavement or road, deep blue sky so set your camera to this i.e choose shutter speed and lens aperture, before taking your shot...easy peasy and really works and it's better than the sunny 16 rule...have fun.

BTW forgot:- once you have taken this meter reading of something Kodak grey you can use the camera settings for hours photographing until the sun\light gets less powerful (assuming the light stays the same i.e. no clouds temporarily covering the sun) and you then take another reading. In sunny Ibiza my camera is usually set at f11 @ 1/250 for 100 ISO and stays the same from about 11:00 am to about 3:00 pm.......but to repeat, the subject must be in the same sunshine\light as the Kodak grey reading you have taken.
 
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Thanks for the advice guys all really helpful! I'm going to look up the sunny 11 rule, I'm confused about what you mean about the kodak grey?
Asha that article on the exposure triangle is really helpful thanks, it definitely makes alot more sense!
ChrisR I will definately be posting my pictures when I get them developed and will be expecting some advice!
 
Neutral grey is what a typical scene averages out to. This is why for snow scenes (much whiter) require you to slightly overexpose from what the light meter tells you.

You can get grey cards or cloths to meter off if you are unsure. This gives a more accurate reading. I use a lens cloth that is neutral grey for this (just holding it out in front of the camera in the appropriate lighting for the subject to take a reading) when needed. But don't worry much about this, with a little practice you'll just learn when a scene is likely to need you to override the recommended setting by going up or down a stop or two.

When it comes to the sunny 11/16 rules, that is just the light level reading (you can then work out exposure from that using the exposure triangle). The point being there are numerous combinations of ISOs, Shutter Speeds and Apertures that are appropriate for a given light meter reading that will expose the image correctly. The creative part is firstly to pick an interesting scene/composition and secondly to select a combination that adds to the artistic quality of the image.

Using a low aperture value gives shallower depth of field and blurs the background or allow faster shutter speeds. A high aperture value for landscapes where you want lots of detail from foreground to background. Shutter speeds allow you to freeze or blur motion. Also try using a high ISO film for low level light or faster scenes and a lower ISO for brighter lit situations or landscapes with longer exposures.

It's finding the right balance of these for the condition, the scene, the subject, the film you have loaded, the activity in the scene or the message/emphasis you want to give that is the real art of taking a photo.

But firstly just try nailing manual exposures, then start looking at your pics and getting feedback and you'll get a feel for what works and what doesn't. With time you'll start to learn where your interests and strengths lie and with perseverance you will begin to develop your own style/signature.

You've played with digital so have started to develop an eye for composition. Now shooting film you can start to understand the technical art more and consciously control your pictures to how you want them to appear. Film forces you to pause and think more about a shot and to consider more whether the shot is worth taking. That in itself is a key part of the process.

Just get out there and shoot and learn little by little. AND ENJOY!
 
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Toon49 said:
Thanks for the advice guys all really helpful! I'm going to look up the sunny 11 rule, I'm confused about what you mean about the kodak grey?
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18% Grey

White is 100%, Black is Zero %.. 'Kodak' Grey, or 'Neutral Grey' or 'standard' grey is 18% grey... ie something about 4/5th the way towards white from black,

And its the average brightness of a scene that most exposure meters are calibrated to, on presumption that usually, thats how bright most scenes are on average.

If you check the Tutorial on Exposure over in Tutorials, the 18% grey-scale metering method, is explained.

Basically, rather than hoping that what you are actually pointing a camera at DOES average out to 18% Grey brightness, you stick a bit of cardboard that has been painted a garanteed 18% grey in-font of teh camera to fill the frame; measure Exposure value off that... for the light falling on it... then take it away and take your picture.... cheapskates like me, simply point camera at a light-ish colour paving slab or similar, 'close' to 18% and see how different the meter reading is from whatever the scene we are snapping is.

If you have a look in Photo-Editor or other softeare you can pic colours or tones from palet, you are likely to find you can set an 18% grey on a slider bar.

Add on Ed.. found a picture for you.... l
320948_545696542121934_1088888062_n.jpg

Picture of snow on the ground... as exposed by camera, with 18% grey square next to it. As you can see, snow is almost pure white, 100%, so the camera has under-exposed trying to make the whole scene 18% grey. Beneath, adding one stop of exposure compensation, to 'over expose' from what the meter suggests, brings the white back to white. On dark subjects, say a picture of a lump of coal, would work the other way and meter would try and over expose to make the near black come out light grey, so you would deliberately under expose to compensate.

F16-Sunny Rule: in biref. Rough reckoner for assessing exposure setting without a meter. If its a clear sunny day, outside in indirect light, ie sund behind you, then at f16, setting the shutter speed to the same number as your film ASA / ISO setting will give 'about' the right exposure.

So, nice sunny, summer day, you have 100ASA film, you set appature to f16, and a shutter to same number as your film ASA.... 100th... of as close as.. 1/90th or 1/125th depending on what the shutter increments are, and you're exposures ought to be pretty close to whatever a hand held meter may say.

You can then use a bit of know-how and adjust the exposure up or down, if you are shooting something very bright, like say a beach, with very white sand, the light not quite over your shoulder and reflecting off the water, you may stop down a bit; use f22 or perhaps 1/250th to avoid over exposure; or vica versa, if you are shooting into shaddows, or something dark, you open the apature up or drop shutter speed to something you think a bit closer.

Ditto if the day is over cast, or its getting dark, or its hissing with rain... and you 'open up' to let more light in depending on how dary you reckon it is, by eye, compared to a suny day.

Your eye, being probably more sensative, an exposure meter, and your ability to judge colour and brightness of what you are pointing the camera at, probably far more acute than any cameras meter, if you practice at it a bit.

f11 sunny... is British Pessamism... we dont see bright sunny days very often, so opening up a stop for more usual

thred on it here: Sunny Rule

Thread co-incided with a new light-meter arriving; so I added a reply, comparing meter-readings from my Nikon, the old Russian Light-Meter I had just bought, and the F16 rule, on photo of my driveway!

The rule provides pretty useful guide; but the 'lesson' is that your eye and experience, is worth as much as any meter, no matter how sophisticated or how integrated with the camera... and the F16 Sunny 'rule' is no more binding than the Exposure Values hand-held meter suggests, or the AE settings a camera might try and set for you.
 
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Thanks that makes much more sense, I was just reading though the user manual of my pentax and was wondering how you knew when to compensate. So, just to check I have this right, if I have my camera and i'm taking a picture of something white (snow was your example) I would compensate by making it x2 or x4 on my camera depending on how far from grey I think it is (i presume setting are similar on most). As for deciding on how much to compensate I'm guessing it's just a case of try both and see which comes out on film best, so learn from experience!
 
Toon49 said:
I'm confused about what you mean about the kodak grey?
/QUOTE]


Well the film camera makers had agreed on the exposure meter settings and it's based on a Kodak grey card...but the problem is:- It only works if the scene\subject is to this Kodak grey (set by the meter), so some times the camera can be fooled if the subject is not to what the camera sees\wants for example.....A bridge in the distance across a river, and with a massive amount of white sky behind, you'll get the shot but unfortunately the bridge will be underexposed (as the meter is fooled by all the white sky also reflection in the river). Anyway with a bit of practice you'll overcome all problems and I could bore you with all the mistakes I've made in the beginning.

BTW forget to mention that after 60 years things can still go wrong as with the bridge I mentioned above (which happened to be the first transporter bridge in the world in Northern Spain).....I saw the problem and my Konica has an exposure lock, so I took a reading of the grey pavement, held the exposure button down (for the correct exposure of bridge) and when I saw the shot something went wrong and the sky was lovely but could only just make out the bridge :(
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excalibur2 said:
Well the film camera makers had agreed on the exposure meter settings and it's based on a Kodak grey card.
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To put it into perspective, 18% is the reflectance of an average daylight scene. The 18% grey card is intended to be a standard based on this.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
To put it into perspective, 18% is the reflectance of an average daylight scene. The 18% grey card is intended to be a standard based on this.


Steve.
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.....don't some digital cameras base it on 15%?
 
Thanks going to take some photos this weekend and hopefully they'll be okay!
 
Or instead of all that 18% reflectance nonsense, you could use an incident light meter and measure the light falling on the subject, not what it is reflecting. Much easier. What could possibly go wrong?
 
compulsivehordr said:
Or instead of all that 18% reflectance nonsense, you could use an incident light meter and measure the light falling on the subject, not what it is reflecting. Much easier. What could possibly go wrong?
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:lol: more complication for a newbie, so you reckon he should buy a separate meter than use what he has got :shrug:
 
excalibur2 said:
:lol: more complication for a newbie, so you reckon he should buy a separate meter than use what he has got :shrug:
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More complicated than those dissertations ^^^^ above? They scared the willies out of me. :)
 
compulsivehordr said:
Or instead of all that 18% reflectance nonsense, you could use an incident light meter and measure the light falling on the subject, not what it is reflecting. Much easier. What could possibly go wrong?
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Just as much... maybe more.
Bottom line is:-
1/ you have a light source chucking out photons.
- More powerful that source is, more photons it chucks out.
2/ You have a subject
- Further from the light source it is, fewer photons going to hit it
- Colour, reflectivity & shape, deturmin how many photons that DO hit it, will be bounced towards the camera
3/ Your Camera
- Wider the angle of view, more subject bouncing photons, it may catch.
- Closer it is to the subject, more reflected photons its going to catch.
- Any filters in the way, will reject bounced photons
- Wider aparture, will let in more bouncing photons
- Slower shutter, will let in more bounced photons
4/ Your Film
- Higher the ISO; fewer photons it needs to stop in their tracks to exite halide chrystals and get them to turn black.

Metering, is merely how you assess the amount of 'wild' photons are knocking about, so that you can make some judgement as to what camera settings will let in enough to form an image, without letting in so many your film gets blanked.

Whether you assess by eye; whether you look at light bulb wattages or flash ratings and crack out a tape measure; whether you wave a meter around, whether you rely on an in camera meter, or even let that meter select camera settings for you... bottom line...

Its all means to an end; and no one method is any better than any other, and more precice measurement accuracy, in getting the photon level 'data' is utterly useless if you dont know how to best use it.

Bloke with a blunderbuss can hit a barn door at twenty paces with his eyes shut.... chap with a sniper rifle, can very precicely miss the same barn door at the same range, if he doen't know what the ranging scope is doing for him, or to compensate for recoil and wind!
 
H'mm Mike you forget to mention the tolerance of the film which balances out many\all of your problem of photons on a subject, if exposure is set by the camera meter and by a competent amateur. And not only that, some films give better results by adding or decreasing the exposure using slide or negative film...and not only that, how does anyone know if their camera shutter and aperture are absolutely spot on.
So your paragraphs could be summed up by saying:- "get out there shooting and know your camera" :)
 
Well been out and taken some pictures today looking forward to seeing how they come out when I get th more developed on Monday (as long as I can find an asda that develops film!) I'll keep you updated on how I get on as I'm sure I'll need more advice! Hopefully I'll have some good shots!
 
compulsivehordr said:
So.. that's a 'yes' it is easier? :)
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Actually... no, its not.
'Easy' means doing as little as possible.
Pointing instamatic and pressing button, relying on luck and the film's exposure lattitude is easy.
Pointing a camera with inbuilt reflected-light meter calibrated to 18%-Grey, and linked to Automatic Exposure controls...... is easy, and more likely to deliver a well exposed picture.
Anything else, is 'less' easy, and as much effort as you wish to make it... with a liklihood of resulting in a better exposure, more or less proportional to how much more you know, rather than how much more you do.
 
Aaaah.. So you haven't used an incident meter then. Very easy.
 
Think I'll get my coat!
 
excalibur2 said:
So your paragraphs could be summed up by saying:- "get out there shooting and know your camera" :)
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Yup, wise words. In a nutshell. This is how we do it. (Though if in doubt I will always refer to my incident light meter. It's never wrong.) :)
 
you could take your digital with you too, and use it as a preview/light meter.... :-)
 
compulsivehordr said:
Aaaah.. So you haven't used an incident meter then. Very easy.
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:thinking: yes I have. And it may not be too difficult, once you know how to use it and can translate the EV to camera settings....

If you wish me to conceed that using a hand held meter is not that hard, once you know how to use it... absolutely.

If you wish me to accept that in some situations, incident readings, rather than reflected readings, can be very convenient I will.....

if you also agree that in just as many they may be incredibly inconvenient if not nie on impossible....

Hmmmm... lets see..... day at the zoo... tiger sitting in shade under wooden climbing frame.... SORRY, but I think I'll make do with a reflected reading... I'm NOT going to clamber into that cage and ask Shere Khan nicely if I might just sit next to him while I point the meter at where I have left the camera!

Yes, I could do a general ambient light sweep from close to the cage.... but then, that's not a proper incident reading, of the actual subject area, is it?

And in ANY scenario.... using an extra piece of equipment, to do an extra job or three, is doing more work, hence more effort and less easy than just pointing the camera and pressing the button.

It's all relative I guess... but to me 'Easy' is doing as little as possible.

If you have a camera with inbuilt meter and automatic exposure.... ; using an incident meter may be quite informative.... but....

Its something else to do, another job, more work, with another piece of equipment.... AND you then have to take the info from your meter, and make decissions based on it, and set the camera's exposure controls based on it.

So its no small amount of 'effort'.....

When you can have let the camera do it all for you, as you looked through the view-finder.

Suggesting something slightly 'easier' no matter how easy you may or may not find using a hand held incident meter!

And of course.... might all be rather redundant extra effort, if after taking your EV reading, and translating that to shutter and aperture settings....if you were using my Olympus XA2 or Konica C35 or similar camera... that offer no way of me manually over-riding the Auto-Exposure settings the camera sets from its internal meter! If it even has any! Clock-work instamatic with fixed f8 lens and 1/30th shutter, with no meter, relying entirely on luck and film tolerance!

Meters are merely a tool. They can inform your decisions. But only IF there is a decission to be made. And you know where and when the tool is most apropriately used.

To wit; understanding metering, including the 18% grey calibration, incident readings, reflected readings, flash-guide numbers, the F16 Sunny rule, is all know-how to help in form where and when any one metering method is more or less useful or appropriate or likely to be USEFUL effort to get a 'better' exposure.

How much hard work you want to do after that, and how much better it might make your pictures after, is utterly subjective.

But 'Easy' remains doing as little as possible...
 
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