Oh, because here minorities are not asked to removed items of religious belief? Don't make me laugh. You've obviously been away from this planet for a few years as there are numerous stories of such behavior.
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A discussion on Nationality and Values
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Oh, because here minorities are not asked to removed items of religious belief? Don't make me laugh. You've obviously been away from this planet for a few years as there are numerous stories of such behavior.
i dont think we will ever come to a conclusion here that suits everyone, as there are valid points being made on both sides for and against.We can call people rude but some from overseas, dont see this claim they look at it as being direct and also to some dealing with women is deemed below them. All things like this contribute to a situation also language/communication difficulties. ive heard there are upto and possibly over 10 differant languages spoken in todays schools that in its self doesnt help. until everyone is forced by the authorities to sing off the same song sheet we will always have problems.All children should be treated equally with no partiality except for religious studies and that should be across the board referance to all major religions with the pupil being left to follow their own personal one in their time. English should be taught as the national tongue with pupils given the right to elect another on top as it used to be i.e french or spanish. this is only my opinion
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One thing that puzzles me is when students are excluded fro RE on religious grounds. I know that when I was at school, RE was there to teach student about religion in general and not to indoctrinate in one articular religion. assuming this is the case, I cannot think of one religion where it is against the rules to learn about others. With this in mind, I cannot think of any reason for a parent to demand that their child not have to take this class, other than to preach religious intolerance.
I'm a Sikh, when I was at primary school I did PE. I also did RE in secondary school. When I was in primary school I also did hymn practice on Monday mornings and sang hymns on Friday mornings, without complaint from either myself or my family. I've never asked for preferential or special treatment in anything that I do, nor do I expect it. So for someone to say that Britain is bending over backwards for minorities in the UK, is frankly bull.
At the same time however I share resentment toward those that do expect preferential or special treatment because of their religious beliefs. I believe in integration but at the same time holding on to your own cultural and religious beliefs because I feel it's entirely possible to do so.
In my opinion, at the end of the day there are two types of people, from both 'sides', that hold up this progress, those who are unwilling to integrate into society and those who are afraid of change.
At the same time however I share resentment toward those that do expect preferential or special treatment because of their religious beliefs. I believe in integration but at the same time holding on to your own cultural and religious beliefs because I feel it's entirely possible to do so.
In my opinion, at the end of the day there are two types of people, from both 'sides', that hold up this progress, those who are unwilling to integrate into society and those who are afraid of change.
Flash In The Pan
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I don't think that anyone was inferring that you, or indeed any other sikh, was expecting to be treated differently, but to make a sweeping generalisation that this is true of all minority groups is, to paraphrase you, franky bull.
We have now reached a point in this country where the effects of rights and beliefs of a small minority have become so out of proportion with their numbers that the country risks losing it's christian identity, for fear of upsetting a small number of immigrants.
Take for example this poster, which was used by Tayside Police
and which had to be withdrawn after numerous complaints from the muslim community in Dundee, because in their world world dogs are seen as unclean.
Contrast this with the story of Gillian Gibbons, the English teacher at a school in Suddan who was sentenced to 40 lashes because she dared allow a small boy to name his teddy bear Mohammed.
Now switch these two stories around -if a christian in Suddan complained about the images depicted on a poster for the security services, do you think the authorities would remove it? Conversely, what would the punishment be for a muslim teacher who allowed a child to name their soft toy Jesus?
When all is said and done, the United Kingdom is a Christian country and anyone who wishes to come here has to appreciate that. It is not up to us as a nation to acquiesce to the demands of those of other cultures to abandon our heritage merely because it does not fit in with their beliefs....
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hmm, oh yeah because they didn't used to be walking everywhere over my old estate with stafs and used to think they was hard as nails with them......
Nope, no i'm not even going there. i could write a book on this sort of topic.........................So i'm off
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When we as a nation (UK) start behaving ourselves in other countries and not expecting special treatment then we can start working on it.
I'm in Latvia right now, and every week there is a story in the news of some drunken brit taking a **** on the statue of independence
(what do they expect when they are happy to take the money in return for the booze - but thats another story)
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foodpoison
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I didn't say you verbally attacked me. I said you WANTED to, which, in fact you did.
And my point in making this post was to find out other people's views. This is a discussion, not an argument, which I clearly pointed out in the OP.
As far as your second post goes, I don't see what relevance it has?
Congratulations, I truly do respect you for, for lack of a better phrase, getting on with it, but I wouldn't judge you if you had politely asked the school if you could sit out of those activities mentioned due to your religious beliefs.
FITP has seemed to sum up my point perfectly, and has also made a lot more sense than I have
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but a muslim child not wanting to do PE and a Hovis Witness (thats what i thought they were called when i was 8) not wanting to do Assembley is exactly the same thing
Re classes is a different matter. They should be unbias and be a lesson where you can learn about religion. Not be forced to learn about one.
I myself am a complete and utter atheist. I respect other peoples choices and I actually find different religions very interesting (i've been to many different weddings from different religions) but at the end of the day i dont believe there is any god of any kind.
I don't think that anyone was inferring that you, or indeed any other sikh, was expecting to be treated differently, but to make a sweeping generalisation that this is true of all minority groups is, to paraphrase you, franky bull.
We have now reached a point in this country where the effects of rights and beliefs of a small minority have become so out of proportion with their numbers that the country risks losing it's christian identity, for fear of upsetting a small number of immigrants.
Take for example this poster, which was used by Tayside Police
and which had to be withdrawn after numerous complaints from the muslim community in Dundee, because in their world world dogs are seen as unclean.
Contrast this with the story of Gillian Gibbons, the English teacher at a school in Suddan who was sentenced to 40 lashes because she dared allow a small boy to name his teddy bear Mohammed.
Now switch these two stories around -if a christian in Suddan complained about the images depicted on a poster for the security services, do you think the authorities would remove it? Conversely, what would the punishment be for a muslim teacher who allowed a child to name their soft toy Jesus?
When all is said and done, the United Kingdom is a Christian country and anyone who wishes to come here has to appreciate that. It is not up to us as a nation to acquiesce to the demands of those of other cultures to abandon our heritage merely because it does not fit in with their beliefs....
One thing that seems to be coming out of this is the fact that there is an issue between Christianity and Islam. Only two religions, outwith my posts, have been mentioned and that is Christianity and Islam. Frankly I don't think it's an issue with minorities, I think it's the inability to tolerate, within small groups of people, within those two religions. And even then it's only within a minority. I'm from Dundee and remember that poster very well and I can honestly say that the outrage was not from numerous members of the Islamic community but was indeed very few.
No one, at least in their right mind, is asking 'you' to abandon your beliefs. I for one most definitely am not as you might have been able to see from my previous post. In my opinion people like yourself, and people from minorities that complain too much are as bad as each other. I didn't make a sweeping generalisation about minority groups. You did.
Also why refer to Sudan? What's that got to do with life in Britain? Do you think that because they might be intolerant in other countries gives you a green light to be intolerant here?
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Flash In The Pan
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That's a whole different can of worms, but it is deeply embarrassing the way many British people seem to feel that they can get drunk and behave in a downright shocking manner when on holiday in a foreign country...
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not just that, but a lot of people have problems with ethnic minorities coming here and having their own communities where it seems no one else is allowed in. Which is exactly like a lot of the british communities in southern spain
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apologies if this is a little off topic, but i just wanted to ask you a question.
unless i got this completely wrong, the main idea of your religion is that everyone is equal. and i always thought that is why everyone has the surname 'singh'. but quite a lot of Sikhs have other surnames.. Is that something that only recently started? or has it always been like that?
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Firstly, to let you know where I stand, I, like badgerbaiter, am an athiest, so I have no emotional investment in this discussion. The reason that muslims are being mentioned is that they appear to be the only group who refuse steadfastly to make any effort to integrate into British society, insisting instead that our society changes to accomodate them. I cannot recall any such incidents with other minority groups, such as the sikhs or jews, yet there seems to be a belief amongst the younger generations of predominantly British-born muslims that the rest of society should change to accomodate the Islamic value set.
If you cast your mind back to the anti-war rally that was held by muslim community groups in Glasgow in July 2007, it was telling that none of those who attended were from the 18-35 age group from whence the recent spate of British muslim terrorists came. Can you honestly say, therefore, that we have an "inability to tolerate" when we are faced with the threat of our people being maimed or killed in the name of Islam?
With regard to my reference to Sudan, that was merely an exampleto illustrate the difference in the levels of tolerence of other faiths betwixt the Christian and Muslim worlds, I could just have easily used the example of the riots that followed the publishing of those cartoons in the Danish press.
No need to apologize at all man. The only way you find out is by asking. The Sikh religion believes in equality among all human beings regardless of race or religious belief.
Generally, in Sikhism, the males are given Singh as their middle name, and the females are given Kaur as their middle name. Singh is essential a derivative of the word for Lion and Kaur is the equivallent of Lioness. Sikhs were generally seen as warriors. A quick search of wikipedia for both Singh and Kaur will give you a good insight
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but that is such a tiny minority thats blown out of all proportion by the Daily Mail and alike.
I know plenty of Muslims, and they are nothing like the people portrayed. In fact a lot of them integrate a little too well! (boozing, gambling etc etc)
All the Muslims i know agree that the Mohamed Teddy Bear incident in Sudan was ridiculous.
You mentioned Jews. I can imagine that the Daily Mail Group might pick on them too if there wasnt so many of them on its staff. (ask Ken Livingstone LOL)
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I'd always thought that if i had to pick a religion then that would be the one to go for.. I just cant be bothered with the Turbans, though
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Yes, unfortunately it does, but when it happens in a foreign country it is even more reprehensible and on a par with the point I am making about people coming to this country and insisting they be allowed to behave as they wish, regardless of laws of the land.
The difference is that when the Brits make a disgrace of themselves abroad it tends to amount to no more than urinating in the street or some other such minor, albeit disgusting behaviour. What they don't tend to do is blow up trains and buses...
Ha ha. I have a beard but no turban. At least not till I'm old and retired. Strictly as a Sikh you're not meant to shave any body hair... but for me, that's just not practical, especially when I'm doing MMA. Some might argue that I'm not a real Sikh, and that's up to them, but I'm secure in my beliefs.
i always find it funny how some can blame ethnics for the state of the nation. True as proved here everyone has a theory or belief as to what is right or wrong but to point blank point a finger?.Well it does prove we still live in a democracy. Whilst on holiday in Wales there was scrawled on a wall English go home. English had a line through it and was substituted by Polish and under go home was and give us our jobs back in differant coloured ink.Damn good job centres over there quicker than here.By the way the site we stayed at had Polish staff they were great.
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I think the point that is most obvious here is that some ethnic/cultural/religious [just covering all the bases] minorities in Britain have integrated and accepted the British way of life much more readily than others. It seems the main antagnonism is fromthose of Islamic faith and even then, in my experience, it is a minority of that minority that expect the majority to change for them. Like others here, I am aethiest, I did not have either of my daughters christened/baptised into any religion, they can chose to do that themselves if they wish. However, I can see nothing wrong in having a faith or religion, or belief in a higher god or whatever but that should still be within the laws of the land in which you chose to reside. If you feel those laws conflict with your belief and you are not prepared to modify your religious behaviour, then find another land where their laws are based on your religion, because noisy insistence on a majority changing everything just to keep a tiny minority happy is the biggest cause of religious intolerance ever IMO.
edit: as for the appalling behaviour of some Brits abroad [and indeed at home], one wonders if the birch should actually be reinstated!
edit: as for the appalling behaviour of some Brits abroad [and indeed at home], one wonders if the birch should actually be reinstated!
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You must be forgetting Richard Reid. Who was a British citizen born in England. I'm pretty sure he tried to blow up a plane.
You're quite good with your generalizations. :shrug:
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I'd always thought that if i had to pick a religion then that would be the one to go for.. I just cant be bothered with the Turbans, though
Funnily enough, if I had to pick, I'd probably plump for.......islam
In it's purest sense it is a religion that makes a great deal of sense, however, just like Christianity there are extremists who read far more into the ancient scripts than was ever meant. Extremism in any religion is abhorrent, the trouble at the moment is that there is a hardcore of muslims in this country that are intent on causing death and destruction, based on skewed interpretations of their holy writings.
It is indeed unfortunate that the majority of law-abiding members of their community are tainted by association, but there seems to be a strange reluctance within said community to "out" those who are causing the problems to the authorities and until there is more visible co-operation on that front then the whole religion is going to be viewed with deep suspicion by the rest of society.
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Haven't all of the recent suicide bombers been British citizens? Or are you intimating that that is only relevant when the person involved is a convert to islam and not one born into the faith?
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Would you have prefered if I had said "catholics and protestants" or would you now be arguing the toss that some of the louts may have been athiests and or jews or whatever?
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Okay, how about "The difference is that when the non-muslim Brits make a disgrace of themselves abroad it tends to amount to no more than urinating in the street or some other such minor, albeit disgusting behaviour. What they don't tend to do is blow up trains and buses..."
Happy now, KayJay?
Happy now, KayJay?
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While were on about accomodating incommers to our nation, Glasgow has history of welcoming immigrants with open arms -the Corporation had many sikh bus drivers back in the 50s and 60s (after running a recruitment drive on the Indian subcontinet) and even went as far as providing them with green turbans instead of caps
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Its seems that this debate has become about islam instead of nationalist values. However, may I ask what british nationalistic values are? Are they based on the previous colonisation of various nations where they intimidated and then proceeded to sap the wealth away before being forced to leave taking anything of value with them.
However, ironic that when the minorities start moving to Britian causing "uproar", the defenses come up...
However, ironic that when the minorities start moving to Britian causing "uproar", the defenses come up...
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I have no idea what "British" values are, I see myself as Scottish, not British. The word British and the union flag seem to only be used in reference to the English (and certain sectarian groups north of the border) nowadays.....
Unless it's a scots sportsman who is winning, the he too is "British"
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Personally, I see alot of tolerance in British society being a minority however in my belief, you can't really have a discussion on the whole topic when the definition of nationalistic values are ambigous and assuming one muslim family speaks for everyone else.... At the end of the day, a country gets molded by its inhabitants and its culture, not the other way around
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I think if it's the "Law" for a child to take part in PE, then everyone must do it.
Exactly
Why should the girl in question be treated any different from the rest of the children, especially if it's required that she takes part in PE.
Exactly
Why should the girl in question be treated any different from the rest of the children, especially if it's required that she takes part in PE.
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I have no idea what "British" values are, I see myself as Scottish, not British. The word British and the union flag seem to only be used in reference to the English (and certain sectarian groups north of the border) nowadays.....
Unless it's a scots sportsman who is winning, the he too is "British"
Now where did we put that wall?
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Flash In The Pan
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Better not mention you're a 'tog when you call them, otherwise it would be you getting locked up
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Now where did we put that wall?
Good idea, get it back up asap, he said, from the land of free prescriptions, free care homes for old folk and OIL :razz: