A discussion on Nationality and Values

foodpoison

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Sean
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I would like this to remain a discussion, not go into any racism or slagging off.
Mods, feel free to lock it at any time, I won't get ratty, and if you feel it's no good from the offset, lock it, but a polite message as to why would be greatly appreciated (but not necessary :))

Now, onto the topic at hand.

My mum runs a pre-school, and there is a Muslim family with a child there.
Now, the Government states that P.E is part of the national curriculum, and is therefore the law for children in eduction to participate in Physical Eduction unless there is health risk or reason as stated by a doctor.

This Muslim family have been making my mum's job very difficult since their child has been there, since they are demanding that their child be treated differently to the rest of the children in the pre-school.
For example, they have demanded their child not partake in P.E, since in their Muslim faith they don't not believe in P.E.
One of my mum's members of staff told them that P.E is national curriculum and is therefore the law. After a long argument, they finally agreed to allow their child to participate in P.E, but demanded she get changed in a different room to all the other children, her own private room, since, and I quote, "Muslim people do not take their clothes off in front of anyone."
Now, the pre-school isn't exactly big, it has a kitchen area which is still visible from the main hall, a 'quiet' room with a computer, with windows making it visible from the main hall, leaving 3 toilets left - male, female and disabled.
Giving the child her own private room would cause great trouble to my mum, since she would have to get changed in one of the toilets.
Treating this child differently because of her faith isn't fair. I could understand adhering to the rules if she went to a Muslim based school.

It seems that the Government of (not so) Great Britain are bending over backwards to help out people with religions different to the majority of England, and they're taking advantage of it.
Sure, don't serve lamb to someone who doesn't believe in eating animals.
Sure, allow someone a quiet area during breaktime to have a prayer.

But asking a christian to take off a cross necklace because it is offensive to people of other religions?
Hold on, aren't we building mosques and god knows what else?

Not allowing the Red Arrows to fly during Olympics 2012 because they're too British? Hold up, aren't the Olympics HELD IN ENGLAND?

I wouldn't like to see what would happen if we pranced into Pakistan in shorts and sandals, carrying a christmas tree, demanding a Christian church be built so we have somewhere to worship OUR God.
No doubt limbs would be cut off, followed by heads.

I think we should stop changing our national values as British citizens to accommodate for people who's national values should have stayed within their nation.

Just my two pennies worth.
Feel free to carry on the discussion, and mods, jump in whenever appropriate.
 
i dont get it.. you want to uphold your countries values while slagging your own country off in the same post...

Its a big world mate.. I dont see what difference it makes if muslims or any other people have different values and different ways of doing things.. how is it effecting you personally? if it isnt then be happy with life :)
 
Don`t mind anyone coming into my home, just don`t try to redecorate it ..........if you get my drift...:)
 
Simple - If the family in question require special treatment then suggest they find another preschool.

As to the rest, stop reading the Daily Mail.

(and you mean cultural values not national)
 
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Wouldn't it be just easier to not let the child do PE? :shrug:

We had a girl in our year at school who was a Jehovahs Witness and didn't have to go to assembly or do RE because of that. Oh how we all wanted to become Jehovahs Witnesses :lol: That was 20 odd years ago (that makes me sound old :'( )
 
First off, I think its one of those situations where common sense should prevail, it would definately be easier to just allow the child to sit out PE. HAving said that, it seems very unfair that the school should break the law to allow such common sense and if this is the case now, things will only get harder as the child moves on to big school. I think the LEA should be handed the case and let them decide how to deal with it as they will have to anyway in future years until the child is 16.

My own feeling is that religious beliefs should be taken into account for all British Citizens, but also that all citizens should adhere to the law of the land, which as this case demostrates, can lead to conflict. If I moved to another country, I would expect to have to comply with their laws, regardless of my own beliefs, the same should apply here in Britain. If you chose to live here, then you chose to comply with current laws as they stand, working like any other citizen to change laws you dont aggree with via the usual democratic paths. [did i really just say that :bonk: ]
 
If you chose to live here, then you chose to comply with current laws as they stand,

It's a child and a pe lesson.. I dont think said child should be making too many big decisions about the country they live in.:)
 
Don`t mind anyone coming into my home, just don`t try to redecorate it ..........

:thumbs:( still if you have an hour or so free I have a few ceilings .......:D)

,.... but also that all citizens should adhere to the law of the land, which as this case demostrates, can lead to conflict. If I moved to another country, I would expect to have to comply with their laws, regardless of my own beliefs, the same should apply here in Britain.

Exactly :thumbs:
and if certain ethinics wish to live by their laws in this country then lets start cutting off a few hands for theft ( That wasn't meant to be flippant either)
 
Simple - If the family in question require special treatment then suggest they find another preschool.

As to the rest, stop reading the Daily Mail.

(and you mean cultural values not national)

If such a suggestion was made, race would come into it in the eye of the family and my mum would go up in front of the county court.

Kipax, I think the reason I feel upset about this is because this is the whole reason I don't like England. I just felt a bit defensive about the whole thing, since it would be a whole different story in another country.
No, I don't have a problems with how people choose to live their lives.
It's when people want to live their life against, as LL said, the laws of the land, and expect us to change the laws to suit them personally.
It hasn't effected me personally, persé, but it has caused me great trouble when trying to explain to different people about the rules of bloody passport photos at Jessops :p

And to 'who?', yes, I do mean cultural values, got my words all confused :)
 
Kipax, I think the reason I feel upset about this is because this is the whole reason I don't like England.

You dont like england? and your bothered about the laws of the land even though they dont effect you. your bothered about muslims wanting to be treated different even though that doesnt effect you either..

You have too much time on your hands if your so worried about other peoples problems :)

Personally I love England :)
 
You dont like england? and your bothered about the laws of the land even though they dont effect you. your bothered about muslims wanting to be treated different even though that doesnt effect you either..

You have too much time on your hands if your so worried about other peoples problems :)

Personally I love England :)

Don't get me wrong this isn't just directed at Muslims!

When you put it like that well then it all just seems ridiculous haha :p
I think I'm just wound up because it is causing my mum to feel quite depressed at the moment.
She has never dealt with responsibility and stress too well, and she is the boss of this pre-school, and this family are making demands and being so unbelievably rude that she is struggling with what to do.

Just got me thinking.
 
and this family are making demands and being so unbelievably rude that she is struggling with what to do.

Just got me thinking.
I deal with various ""ethnics" on a daily basis and some ( not all) are
incredibly rude, so I do sympathise.......
 
there is good and bad in every society and it is wrong to criticise all on the base of ones feelings towards a minority. there a re those who will use their various ethnicity towards their own ends and some are very arrogant but are they all a differant colour or religion KKK for instance.i have friends from differant backgrounds and all our lives thats just what we have been friends.although some dont celebrate christian events they have no objection to them its part and parcel of a christian country, i have no objection to a mosque.what we have to be careful of though and it is only an opinion and not hard view as im always open to reason its the professional do gooders we have to get rid of and the politically correct.after all we all got on well till they appeared.after all i never enslaved anyone so why should i say sorry especially living in a country whose poulace was enslaved for about 800 years with collars, hobbling and public hanging and deportation. if left in peace to get we would.
 
On the subject of the Red Arrows not being allowed to fly at the 2012 Olympics, this is England, it will be summer, the weather will be terrible and the flying conditions unsuitable.
As far as the problem at preschool. Won't a screened off area be enough for changing, or ask the parents to supply the child with one of those cape things people use on beaches for getting changed on the beach.
 
Not allowing the Red Arrows to fly during Olympics 2012 because they're too British? Hold up, aren't the Olympics HELD IN ENGLAND?

The red arrows story is the perfect example of why the UK media shouldnt be trusted.

The Red Arrows were not banned from 2012 and dont even plan their displays that far in advance

http://www.london2012.com/blog/2008/05/21/london-2012-and-the-red-arrows-the-truth.php

Your OP is daily mail fueled nonsense to be honest.

Some Muslims have interperated the Qu'ran in such a way that adult women arent allowed to show their faces in public so its quite reasonable that their female child shouldnt be expected to get naked in public.

Sounds fair enough to me to be honest.
 
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Surely there is a ruling body above your mum (ooh er missus) who is responsible for making these decisions.. IE school bosses.. the government.. There must be set guidelines as to how this situation is dealt with and therefore your mum should just be able to seek guidance and act according to those guidelines and if that is seen to be un PC then it's not her who end up in court it's the guideline creators.

I don't mind schools making provisions for people as long as it is consistent and doesn't bend over backwards for some cultures but having no leeway for British pupils. To me someone who personally doesn't like getting changed in front of people should get as much support as someone who's religion dictates they can't get changed in front of people.
 
I'm finding it extremely hard not to flame the OP on this topic...
 
The red arrows story is the perfect example of why the UK media shouldnt be trusted.

The Red Arrows were not banned from 2012 and dont even plan their displays that far in advance

http://www.london2012.com/blog/2008/05/21/london-2012-and-the-red-arrows-the-truth.php

Your OP is daily mail fueled nonsense to be honest.

Some Muslims have interperated the Qu'ran in such a way that adult women arent allowed to show their faces in public so its quite reasonable that their female child shouldnt be expected to get naked in public.

Sounds fair enough to me to be honest.

Ah, well ignore the comment on the Red Arrows. Perhaps my message should be aimed at the UK media?!

I suppose it is fair enough, but she would only be undressing in front of female members of qualified staff, and other children of a similar age.
What wound me up is how rude they were about their demands.

Leon, my mum will contact the committee if she has an issue, which is presumably what she will do at her next committee meeting.

KayJay, I don't understand why you want to flame me.
I don't feel at any point I have been rude within this discussion, perhaps a little (a lot? :shrug:) misinformed, but I honestly don't think that requires flaming...
Correct me if I'm wrong?

Perhaps in the future I shouldn't participate in a serious discussion, with threat's of being flamed.
I am only 18, and I have my whole life to become as wise as others, which may cause my views at the moment to seem immature in comparison to other members on the forum, so please don't take me the wrong way - i.e. think I'm a teenager that thinks he knows it all, because I'm not.
 
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seems a bit of a storm in a teacup to me.
if someone of ANY particular faith has a problem with a mainstream education, then surely they should look to single faith schools.
ok , not quite the same, but we have c of e schools , and catholic schools.

personaly , if its pre-school, just let em sit it out. far less hassle all round.

i had a neighbour whose little one didnt go to the christmas assemblies and such cos they were jehovas wotsits.
is that realy any different.
muslims, as with any other religion, has some followers who are more extreme than others.
 
I wouldn't like to see what would happen if we pranced into Pakistan in shorts and sandals, carrying a christmas tree, demanding a Christian church be built so we have somewhere to worship OUR God.
No doubt limbs would be cut off, followed by heads.


If you're going to rant about a subject at least do a bit of research first. There are over 2 million Pakistani christians, a little over 1% of the population according to wikipedia. I'm sure they celebrate christmas the same as anywhere else.
 
I wouldn't like to see what would happen if we pranced into Pakistan in shorts and sandals, carrying a christmas tree, demanding a Christian church be built so we have somewhere to worship OUR God.
No doubt limbs would be cut off, followed by heads.

I hate to say this, but thats pretty much what we did do when we went on a mission to add countries to our portfolio

Although its only Andalucia and Greece where we invade in shorts and sandals/flip flops :)
 
I wouldn't like to see what would happen if we pranced into Pakistan in shorts and sandals, carrying a christmas tree, demanding a Christian church be built so we have somewhere to worship OUR God.
No doubt limbs would be cut off, followed by heads.

I think we should stop changing our national values as British citizens to accommodate for people who's national values should have stayed within their nation.

This wins the prize for the most uninformed post of the year on talk photography. It's also incensed me. You use your age as an excuse for your lack of knowledge on the subject, but frankly all that says to me is that you've led a sheltered life and as a result of that you're easily led by others.

During the British occupation of India, which at that time included Pakistan, the British were actively spreading the Christian faith in that part of the world, in fact Pakistan still has a minority Christian population as does India, although its Christian population are much bigger, especially in the southern parts of the country. And that is not all. India, who without it's help Britain would have had serious problems fighting the Germans in North Africa and East Asia, was brought into the war by Britain and not through it's own choice. In some parts of India the British were hated to such an extent that during the war a militant army was created by separatists who wanted to drive the British rulers out of the country, and would attempt this by any means necessary including courting Hitlers mighty army.

Thankfully times have changed and India in particular enjoys a relatively strong relationship with Britain these days. But it goes to show that Britain is not entirely free from blame itself.
 
I went off on a tangent, but consider yourself lucky you didn't get flamed.

Oh, and just to add... ever since the end of the Second World War Britain's treatment of the mighty Gurkhas is one of the most despicable acts I've ever studied.

But I digress, again.

Where were we?
 
To be fair, the op does have a valid point. We as a nation (and by that I mean the United Kingdom) have reached a point where our those in power are scared to do anything to upset a tiny minority of the population. The situation with the child is only a microcosmic version of the reality nowadays in the whole country.

I appreciate that Britain's past proclivity to try and impose it's norms on a vast proportion of the world's peoples is in no small way to blame for a lot of what is happening in our land today, but this in no way gives carte blanche to those from such countries who have chosen to make their home here (and their descendants) to demand that we given them special treatment.

What was the old saying "when in Rome......"?
 
To be fair, the op does have a valid point. We as a nation (and by that I mean the United Kingdom) have reached a point where our those in power are scared to do anything to upset a tiny minority of the population. The situation with the child is only a microcosmic version of the reality nowadays in the whole country.

I appreciate that Britain's past proclivity to try and impose it's norms on a vast proportion of the world's peoples is in no small way to blame for a lot of what is happening in our land today, but this in no way gives carte blanche to those from such countries who have chosen to make their home here (and their descendants) to demand that we given them special treatment.

What was the old saying "when in Rome......"?

One of the most sensible and level headed posts in the thread :thumbs:
 
i think we need to get jeremy kyle in on this.
 
just his direct approach to everything lol.
i watch it when i feel like going to dumfries town centre. its basically the same, a load of junkies/chavs/that type of people shouting at each other infront of a group of people. why leave the house when i can enjoy it from my own room. lol

but on a serious note. something needs to be done. from foodpoisins example of a school kid not wanting to do p.e is just silly. i can understand jahovas witnesses not taking part in assemblys etc as nobody really has the right to make you believe or pretend to believe in something you dont want to. as for physical education and using religion as an excuse i wouldnt of bothered and said if you dont want to do p.e, we dont want to teach you how to spell
 
but on a serious note. something needs to be done. from foodpoisins example of a school kid not wanting to do p.e is just silly.


I don't think the child is the one who is raising the objections in this case, but rather the parents ;)
i can understand jahovas witnesses not taking part in assemblys etc as nobody really has the right to make you believe or pretend to believe in something you dont want to. as for physical education and using religion as an excuse i wouldnt of bothered and said if you dont want to do p.e, we dont want to teach you how to spell

Did you mean Jehovah's Witnesses ? :naughty: :exit:
 
yes i did lol.
i do appologise for my spelling its been a long summer.
 
i can understand jahovas witnesses not taking part in assemblys etc as nobody really has the right to make you believe or pretend to believe in something you dont want to.

But why one rule for them and another for everyone else? I am not a religious person in any way, shape or form, yet I had to attend school assemblies and say prayers and sing hymns all the years I attended school, much to my disgust. Why force Christianity (or any religion) on people? I can understand having to do RE lessons (which again the Jehovahs Witness pupil didn't) as it did inform us a little bit about other religions and beliefs.

Can of worms - opened :D
 
Lots of folk in Britian are rude and lots of them are not from ethnic minorities.

In a way we are all different, special and an exception.

So what if someone wants to get changed in the loos, it doesn't take long.

We don't want to become like a country (you refer to Pakistan - to be honest I don't know what it's like in Pakistan) who cuts limbs off. Take a look at some other countries like Greece. They are very friendly and accomodating to tourists and although they are mostly not Christians during the holiday season they put on special Christian services. Good on them.
 
I went off on a tangent, but consider yourself lucky you didn't get flamed.

Oh, why thank you. I'm very much appreciative.

I still don't understand why you want to flame me so badly.
Go to another forum if you feel the need to verbally attack other members, since I'm pretty sure that's not what we do here.

This wins the prize for the most uninformed post of the year on talk photography. It's also incensed me. You use your age as an excuse for your lack of knowledge on the subject, but frankly all that says to me is that you've led a sheltered life and as a result of that you're easily led by others.

I'm sorry that it angered you, it wasn't the intention.
As to the use of the analogy, it was meant with tongue in cheek, and you can see what I've written about that in #38.

My point about my age was not that I have a lack of knowledge on the subject, but simply that people shouldn't take me the wrong way. I didn't want to come across as a thinks-he-knows-it-all kind of guy, because I'm not. I'm still learning, as everyone is.
But hey, yeah, sure, you can just assume you know me. I'm not going to argue with you, fuel to the fire and all that.
 
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Lots of folk in Britian are rude and lots of them are not from ethnic minorities.

In a way we are all different, special and an exception.

So what if someone wants to get changed in the loos, it doesn't take long.

We don't want to become like a country (you refer to Pakistan - to be honest I don't know what it's like in Pakistan) who cuts limbs off. Take a look at some other countries like Greece. They are very friendly and accomodating to tourists and although they are mostly not Christians during the holiday season they put on special Christian services. Good on them.

The point of my OP was that the child's parents expected their child to be treated completely differently to all the other children because of their religion, and were very rude about it, and it seems that this has become the norm. Special treatment which isn't given to anyone else, since it would be 'politically incorrect' to not give them this special treatment.

And I referred to Pakistan, but I was making the point that if we were to go into other countries and make specific demands, asking them to remove items of their religion because we find it offensive/ask for churches to be built/special treatment because of our religion, then perhaps they might not be as hasty as to aid us?
 
But why one rule for them and another for everyone else? I am not a religious person in any way, shape or form, yet I had to attend school assemblies and say prayers and sing hymns all the years I attended school, much to my disgust. Why force Christianity (or any religion) on people? I can understand having to do RE lessons (which again the Jehovahs Witness pupil didn't) as it did inform us a little bit about other religions and beliefs.

Can of worms - opened :D

oh that is waaay too close to my own personal bug bear of parents/families enforcing their religious values upon their children. I don't care which religion or faith you believe in, your kids are not old enough to have those doctrines inflicted upon them. By all means use the scriptures of your faith to help them understand moral obligations and right from wrong, but also make sure they understand other religions interpret those same 'stories' differently' and why. Let them chose the path to follow when they are old enough..... sorry, I will shut up now.
 
Oh, why thank you. I'm very much appreciative.

I still don't understand why you want to flame me so badly.
Go to another forum if you feel the need to verbally attack other members, since I'm pretty sure that's not what we do here.



I'm sorry that it angered you, it wasn't the intention.
As to the use of the analogy, it was meant with tongue in cheek, and you can see what I've written about that in #38.

My point about my age was not that I have a lack of knowledge on the subject, but simply that people shouldn't take me the wrong way. I didn't want to come across as a thinks-he-knows-it-all kind of guy, because I'm not. I'm still learning, as everyone is.
But hey, yeah, sure, you can just assume you know me. I'm not going to argue with you, fuel to the fire and all that.

At what point did I verbally attack you? And you should argue if you want to defend your view point... otherwise what is the point in being here? You obviously feel strongly enough to make a post about it so why not defend your opinion. By not doing so makes me believe that really, the only reason you posted the original post, was just to get some attention.
 
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